FF14 needs WvW or RvR

If this game had WvW or RvR to go along with the excellent pve I think a lot of people would have no need for any other mmo including myself.

I feel like many of the MMOs that have this (only one I can think of at the top of my head atm is GW2) always fail to capture a good portion of its playerbase to be on board with it. Its one of those ideas that sounds good on paper.

I'm old and out of touch, what do these acronyms mean?

W what and R what now?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I'm old and out of touch, what do these acronyms mean?

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World vs World or Realm vs Realm.

Aka PvP Server vs Server or Data Center vs Data Center

Its a cool idea in your head and on paper.
But it just wouldnt workout.

Proof of concept is the 3 grand companies. Back in the day, when you queued into Frontlines, your team is the GC you joined. It was heavily lopsided towards the Twin Adder.
More people were in the GC, the Best Players were in that GC, so the Immortal Flames and Maelstorm always get stomped.
So everyoned joined Twin Adder, till it got to a point it was IMPOSSIBLE to queue for frontlines.

Basically, one side would have an incredibly large advantage.
So now everyone is a free agent because of it

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World vs World or Realm vs Realm.

Aka PvP Server vs Server or Data Center vs Data Center

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"Wurld pee vee pee"

No.

I remember Requiem: Bloodymare doing server vs server pvp events...

Only problem was that they had multiple PvE only servers and only 1 server that had open PvP enabled... which was the server I played on... and we won every single one of those events while reading a make out tactics and sipping a cup of tea... lol

As much as id like this it wouldn't work because pvp is an afterthought sadly / community doesn't care for it sadly. This is a themepark mmo

The game's netcode can barely handle 8-man content, and the PvP system is already jank af. Why in the blue hell would we want open world PvP? World PvP is by and large one of my favorite parts of any MMO, but I absolutely do not want to see SE try to implement it.

World PVP is like a rainbow. It sure does look pretty when you observe it, but it doesn't last long.

Just for clarification, World vs World/Realm vs Realm doesn't mean open world PvP, think of it as world/DC-wide Frontlines.

I just want to pvp at hunts

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Originally Posted by ClaudeHerel

I just want to pvp at hunts

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No one else does.

No one here cares for, wants, or is interested in gankfests.

We are there to do the boss, not to cater to your need of being the centre of attention. See, this is the selfish pvp mentality, you dont care what others want.

"People do not dislike open world pvp...they LOATHE IT"

On our server it would basically be the whole world vs Moogle.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

No one else does.

No one here cares for, wants, or is interested in gankfests.

We are there to do the boss, not to cater to your need of being the centre of attention. See, this is the selfish pvp mentality, you dont care what others want.

"People do not dislike open world pvp...they LOATHE IT"

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People don't loathe open world pvp. They loathe the types of players it attracts... you know... those ppl who do nothing but patrol the lowest level pvp enabled areas in the game with max level characters only attacking the new players...

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

People don't loathe open world pvp. They loathe the types of players it attracts... you know... those ppl who do nothing but patrol the lowest level pvp enabled areas in the game with max level characters only attacking the new players...

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And then unironically gloat about it as if that's how it "should" be and people calling it out are just whining because "PvP happened in a PvP server".

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

People don't loathe open world pvp. They loathe the types of players it attracts... you know... those ppl who do nothing but patrol the lowest level pvp enabled areas in the game with max level characters only attacking the new players...

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Or we hate both.

In WoW, I hated other players attacking me while I'm trying to get other things done even though I was on a Normal world and supposedly immune to the effects of world PvP as long as I did not turn on my PvP flag (I was not).

When I wanted to PvP, I'd go into a battleground.

Then I started to hate PvP in general because of the toxic players that were attracted by it.

I have no issues if world PvP is kept isolated to very specific worlds designated for it. Let those who enjoy world PvP have their fun. I want no part of it.

Of course, the reality is no one wants to be on the side that's usually losing. They end up transferring to the winning side. Next thing you know, there's no one to oppose you in PvP because you've turned it into a gankfest. It's that, as much as the OP racials, that caused the majority of WoW players to switch to Horde instead of Horde and Alliance ending up fairly evenly matched.

As others have said, sound good in practice but never works out in the long run. PvP that's tied to any sort of faction system (even if those factions are servers) doesn't work out.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

And then unironically gloat about it as if that's how it "should" be and people calling it out are just whining because "PvP happened in a PvP server".

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And then wonder why they're having a hard time finding members of an opposing faction so they can kill them.

Ever tried to do one of the world boss FATEs when it’s new?

Now imagine TWO worlds!

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

People don't loathe open world pvp. They loathe the types of players it attracts... you know... those ppl who do nothing but patrol the lowest level pvp enabled areas in the game with max level characters only attacking the new players...

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PvP servers usually have a bad reputation because in every game where they're implemented, there are significant regulation issues:

a) Developers often enable always on PvP and just leave.
b) Some nerd, form groups of 5-10 people and camp low level areas permanently.
c) Hagrids who want to relive their cool days, join PvP servers even though they don't really like PvP, they just follow the meta.

The truth is, when people talk about open world PvP, they just want to have a casual fight anywhere and then move on. Unfortunately, this rarely happens in reality, but when it does, it's amazing.

Although it wouldn't fit Final Fantasy for several reasons, one being, that here isn't any real incentive for PvP, and also the abysmal netcode that is unlikely to be fixed ever.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

No one else does.

No one here cares for, wants, or is interested in gankfests.

We are there to do the boss, not to cater to your need of being the centre of attention. See, this is the selfish pvp mentality, you dont care what others want.

"People do not dislike open world pvp...they LOATHE IT"

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You don't want it, which is fine, and likely some other people share your viewpoint. Kindly don't assume that everyone shares that same opinion I've participated in exactly this type of PVP in other games and enjoyed it very much, and miss it somewhat in this game.

However, I knew that it wouldn't be available in this game whereas it was designed into those other games from the start of those games. I think it would be an interesting way to get more people into the open world if a hunts in a single specific area were designated to be in a PVP zone- SWTOR had a similar concept.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

No one else does.

No one here cares for, wants, or is interested in gankfests.

We are there to do the boss, not to cater to your need of being the centre of attention. See, this is the selfish pvp mentality, you dont care what others want.

"People do not dislike open world pvp...they LOATHE IT"

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I loved open world PvP in a lot of games, especially RvR/ WvW/ FvF like the mass battles in Aion and such. Or the Abyss in general. Played WoW and SW:TOR on a PvP server and enjoyed it very much, even when being on the "wrong" server such as playing Alli on a Horde-dominated server and vice versa.
Not sure who you are supposed to quote here or if you're not really quoting anyone and just try to make your statement seem like a fact, but there is definitely a target audience for open world PvP and you're not the judge of what people enjoy in general or not.

I don't think it would make sense to go for in this game anymore, I think the ship has simply sailed and since we didn't have any PvP at all at first, it attracted people that are firmly against any form of it and naturally, they'll try to protect their non-PvP territory. It all comes down to how you build up a game and this one was never build up for open world PvP and took quite some time until we had any functioning PvP at all. Which is fine. I would've liked to have it but different strokes for different folks.
But I doubt shoehorning something into a game after spending so much time avoiding it/ treating it as an afterthought would work.

Played WoW at it's vanilla launch on a PvP server. Random bouts of PvP while exploring and doing quests against players around my level was enjoyable. Faction clashes where a bunch of ppl on both sides come to an area and have it out was fun. "Gankers" however were annoying at every level. At low levels you were targeted by them. At high levels you were constantly asked to clear them out. Admittedly I did do some douchey things during my short time in WoW but that was limited to sniping ppl in Booty Bay just to watch the bouncers bounce them and going into Horde settlements and killing all the quest NPCs...

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

World vs World or Realm vs Realm.

Aka PvP Server vs Server or Data Center vs Data Center

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can also mean faction vs faction, RvRvR is usually used when there are 3 factions that are open pvp against each other

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You don't want it, which is fine, and likely some other people share your viewpoint.

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NO ONE wants it.

Mate..lemme lay this out for you in a way even you can understand. IF Square Enix was to announce that they are activating open world pvp in FF 14, in a week you would be looking at empty servers worldwide as players leave the game EN MASSE.

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However, I knew that it wouldn't be available in this game whereas it was designed into those other games from the start of those games. I think it would be an interesting way to get more people into the open world if a hunts in a single specific area were designated to be in a PVP zone- SWTOR had a similar concept.

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Then go play those games.

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Admittedly I did do some douchey things during my short time in WoW but that was limited to sniping ppl in Booty Bay just to watch the bouncers bounce them and going into Horde settlements and killing all the quest NPCs...

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Ahhh you were a selfish griefer.....I see.

Back in WOW during Legion they had this area called the Underbelly, which was a "wurld pee vee pee" area, they allowed it there and had this loot item you could get to buy things with..so they had raid groups of thirty or forty together killing anyone who had to go into those areas for quest items.

Then Blizzard announced that if you were in a raid group, you couldnt get the loot item.

In ONE day those groups vanished, and no one wanted to pvp there anymore, which proved two things

1. How popular..or unpopular .."wurld pee vee pee" is..was..or in this case had never been

and

2. That most, if not all "wurld pee vee pee" players were in fact snivelling cowards who didnt want to fight once the possibility existed that they could lose.... then we go to New World, and the hysterically funny failure that cost Amazon millions of dollars to discover what i could have told them for free..they allowed "open pvp" in their New World Alpha, and were shocked..shocked I say..to see gank squads attacking anyone lower than themselves repeatedly, to the point they were driving the very people they needed to TEST THE ALPHA off the servers.

So now New World has opt in pvp..which was, of course the proximate cause of whining from pvpers who were only after easy kills, never wanted a fair fight and were, again, snivelling cowards..you mention WOW, yeah i remember them ganking lowbies, then as soon as an armed and armoured equal turned up, they leapt on the flight mounts they didnt want anyone else to have and ran like hell.

Or these "leet "wurld pee vee pee" players sat there destroying questgivers and vendors for their own lulz or just to be a selfish dog in the manger, when an armed player showed up for a fight..what did they do?

They ran away.

WOW is old, out of touch, out of date, archaic, a sick joke..modern MMOs dont cater to that kind of toxic, destructive behaviour anymore. Even their vaunted war mode is a sick joke, as most players are on ONE faction, imbalanced realms, the pvpers kick and scream "I have no one to fight Blizz plzzz fix"....without even stopping to think or realise that the reason they have no one to fight, is a direct indication of how few people want to do it in the first place.

Some people are just plain STUPID.

FF 14 is not, and never will be pvp oriented..in fact one of the major drawcards for FF 14 is that no one has to deal with online sociopaths, whose only source of fun is to interfere in other peoples gameplay to validate their sad existence.

this game ain't built for it. shame, since aside from gw2's comparatively lively overworld, wvw is probably the other most enjoyable thing i find about it, even if i am just trailing after the zerg most of the time since i don't have a warclaw yet.

Afterthought

If that vaporware they call 'Ashes of Creation" ever gets out of alpha and releases as a full game ( if ever, LOL ), I am stocking up on popcorn..I give it less than 2 months after release for them to realise why you dont spend millions making a pay to play, full loot open world pvp game.

I give it three months for the honeymoon to end, four months, for people to start jumping ship when they discover they dont want to pay to be someone elses chew toy , six months for their playerbase to hit rock bottom going FTP.

Open pvp games have very low player numbers for good reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ewlcUrIUb0

Josh Hayes has the best take on the matter.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

No one else does.

No one here cares for, wants, or is interested in gankfests.

We are there to do the boss, not to cater to your need of being the centre of attention. See, this is the selfish pvp mentality, you dont care what others want.

"People do not dislike open world pvp...they LOATHE IT"

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I would not say "no one else does" PvP at hunts seems like fun. Form a nature preserve FC to protect hunt targets from being attacked they deserve to live and be loved.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Or we hate both.

In WoW, I hated other players attacking me while I'm trying to get other things done even though I was on a Normal world and supposedly immune to the effects of world PvP as long as I did not turn on my PvP flag (I was not).

When I wanted to PvP, I'd go into a battleground.

Then I started to hate PvP in general because of the toxic players that were attracted by it.

I have no issues if world PvP is kept isolated to very specific worlds designated for it. Let those who enjoy world PvP have their fun. I want no part of it.

Of course, the reality is no one wants to be on the side that's usually losing. They end up transferring to the winning side. Next thing you know, there's no one to oppose you in PvP because you've turned it into a gankfest. It's that, as much as the OP racials, that caused the majority of WoW players to switch to Horde instead of Horde and Alliance ending up fairly evenly matched.

As others have said, sound good in practice but never works out in the long run. PvP that's tied to any sort of faction system (even if those factions are servers) doesn't work out.


And then wonder why they're having a hard time finding members of an opposing faction so they can kill them.

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How did players attack you if you were not on a PvP server or had war mode turned on? A song comes into music head but I will refrain from linking it.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

How did players attack you if you were not on a PvP server or had war mode turned on?

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If you used an AoE attack and a player flagged for PvP walked into it, they'd get hit and you'd get flagged. Griefers love to do it so they can pick a fight whether you wanted it or not, and a number of classes had AoE skills as part of their single target rotations.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

If you used an AoE attack and a player flagged for PvP walked into it, they'd get hit and you'd get flagged. Griefers love to do it so they can pick a fight whether you wanted it or not, and a number of classes had AoE skills as part of their single target rotations.

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shouldnt be possible on a pve server

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

shouldnt be possible on a pve server

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It was on WoW. No idea if it still is, but back in Wrath it happened to me a few times.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

It was on WoW. No idea if it still is, but back in Wrath it happened to me a few times.

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definitely shouldnt happen unless you flagged yourself for pvp (either manually on your portrait frame or automatically if you attack a enemy factions npc)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

If you used an AoE attack and a player flagged for PvP walked into it, they'd get hit and you'd get flagged. Griefers love to do it so they can pick a fight whether you wanted it or not, and a number of classes had AoE skills as part of their single target rotations.

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When was this? Cause when I played back in 2018 AoE would not flag you, and on classic servers you also did not get flagged for AoE'ing someone that was flagged.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

When was this? Cause when I played back in 2018 AoE would not flag you, and on classic servers you also did not get flagged for AoE'ing someone that was flagged.

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I can vouch to seen it as late as last December during the Pre expac event on Illidan.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

I can vouch to seen it as late as last December during the Pre expac event on Illidan.

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I could not duplicate it, lol resubbed to try it. Though i asked friends had it happen to them they said yeah. Seems like a weird bug and not the standard.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I could not duplicate it, lol resubbed to try it. Though u asked friends had it happen to them they said yeah. Seems like a weird bug and not the standard.

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Id bet good money that people have crossed over og/sw while flying to the event zones and got pvp flagged without noticing

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

How did players attack you if you were not on a PvP server or had war mode turned on? A song comes into music head but I will refrain from linking it.

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Not certain when you played WoW but up through Wrath and to a lesser degree into Mists of Pandaria, there were a variety of ways to get an unflagged enemy player force-flagged so you could then kill them.

One of the more popular ways in the earlier years of WoW was to use certain ground effect abilities (Paladin Consecreation, Hunter Immolation Trap, etc.). You could be going about your own business killing mobs in the open world, have a flagged enemy come along and place one of those ground effects right under you or what you're attacking. As the ability activated, you'd be in the area of effect and so automatically flagged. Flagging from those types of effects didn't get fixed until Wrath.

Or you could be out in the open world AoEing mobs, have a flagged enemy rush in to get hit by your AoE and you were then flagged. Blizzard later changed this so you would only be flagged if you had specifically targeted the enemy player, which helped but if you were then using a targeted ability on mobs and were tab-targeting to switch between them an enemy player could come along and hope you tab-targeted them by mistake before holding up your attack. If you hit them, again you were flagged.

The targeted attack flagging wasn't fixed until near the end of Mists of Pandaria because of all the complaints coming from Normal worlds about the world PvP on Timeless Isle. Even then, there were certain abilities that remained bugged and players would have to wait a couple of weeks for Blizzard to get them fixed after they were identified and reported. One i remember in particular was Priest Cascade. You could target a normal mob but it had the potential to bounce to a flagged enemy, which would then flag you. That one Blizzard worked to hotfix fast at least.

Then there were the effects of world PvP on your game play even if you weren't getting flagged yourself. Enemy players loved to kill quest NPCs over and over so leveling players were stuck. It was especially bad in Hellfire Peninsula since it was a leveling bottleneck and groups of world PvPers would frequently battle back and forth between Honor Hold and Thrallmar. It didn't make for a good experience for those players who had picked Normal servers specifically to avoid world PvP. Blizzard took far too long in addressing the complaints.

The first couple of years I played, I wasn't totally adverse to world PvP if I was in the mood for it. But more and more encounters with those toxic players who were out to ruin things for players who wanted nothing to do with PvP eventually turned me off of it. Same thing with battlegrounds and players who filled chat with complaints and insults about what everyone else was doing wrong on their own team while they generally weren't being intelligent or even helpful themselves.

While not all PvPers are toxic, far too many of them are for me to want anything to do with PvP.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

When was this? Cause when I played back in 2018 AoE would not flag you, and on classic servers you also did not get flagged for AoE'ing someone that was flagged.

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That was one of those alterations from true Classic that Blizzard made and which some of the players who wanted the true Classic experience hated (probably because they enjoyed ganking).

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Originally Posted by Shinkuno

Id bet good money that people have crossed over og/sw while flying to the event zones and got pvp flagged without noticing

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Oh that's reminds me of another way to end up flagged in the earlier years - taking a flight path that clipped a corner or edge of an enemy Sanctuary. Originally, you'd remain flagged and have to wait out the 5 minutes after you landed for the flag to drop. Later (can't remember exactly when) they changed it so your flag would drop a few seconds later while you were still on the flight path.

Interesting, though does not seem like an issue with World pvp and more so with a bonkers tag system.

As long as Square Enix doesn't drop this dumb "Boohoo, we need to make it fair for players playing on a Nintoaster with an ISDN connection and a ping of 500", and removes that forced server-side ping making skills conntect with a several 100ms delay, even if you have a ping of <10ms, any kind of PvP will forever be lackluster