Most ambitious summoning?

The trick at Carteneau, attempting to summon the 12, that was quite ambitious.
Using an untold multitude of primals as fuel for a spaceship, that was ambition.
Being the first (in a generation) to incarnate a primal inside yourself, and becoming Shiva, that was ambition.
Tricking the dragons torn by grief into summoning Bahamut, wild ambition.
Using primals and the ARK to channel enough mana to restore the wastes, was that ambition?
Or how about the twitsted ambitions of the church, elevating 12 knights into objects of worship to make enough belief in them to encarnte them into the Knights of the Round?
Perhaps it's the very first primal, ifrit, used to tame a volcano?
Or Hydalin, or Zodiark? Primals that shaped entire stars?

Lets add Enkidu (from the replies) the first summon that didn't use the flawed ascian ritual, the first primal in untold aeons that didn't hunger for more power, more crystals, and more worship.

I'm not asking what primal is the most powerful. Not what one consumed the most, or had the most invested into it, but what one was the most audacious use of a primal.

What one do you think?

Easy:

Sneaking enough crystals in to summon Lakshmi in the Ala Mhigan throne room, during a diplomatic summit.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Easy:

Sneaking enough crystals in to summon Lakshmi in the Ala Mhigan throne room, during a diplomatic summit.

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Ooo good one. Also the Ifrit example wouldn't have been a primal. Anyway I'd go with this and then maybe Tsukuyomi. Causing your sister/cousin to remember who they were by inflicting one's horrible parents onto them. All so you can show your boss how good of a lap dog you are in getting the enemy to break the rocky peace/cease fire due to a primal summoning. While under the guise of being part of the faction that wants to help the Empire turn a new leaf.

Technically, Venat's rebellion against the tempered Convocation was - from their perspective - an anti-government revolutionary cell who committed deicide from within their own capital. Accurate? No. But in context, quite bold! lol

I'd say Tsukuyomi also - Elidibus had Asahi encourage a pacifist faction of Garlemald to entreat for peace with a recently-liberated nation with the intent of killing two birds with one stone by using a primal summoning to get rid of the Optimates' rivals while framing the Domans for murdering peaceful Garleans. Also pretty bold.

Honorable Mention #1 to Louisoix for scale; he planned to tap into their power and die before summoning them, and it didn't to to plan to boot, but the intent was there.

Honorable Mention #2 to Thordan for originality; his summoning wasn't very bold, the Ascians were kind of walking him towards building the Holy Ishgardian Empire on a leash with the intent of having him go to war with Garlemald to cause a calamity. But using the lost Eye of Nidhogg to forge a vessel capable of devouring the Warring Triad so he could kill the Ascians, upend Elidibus's chessboard, and win the war he was never supposed to win... I respect the hustle.

Honorable Mention #3 to Ilberd for style; the sheer narrative audacity of blatantly lying to the audience about his character arc and getting away with it again.

I agree with the Professor about Thordan - stabbing his erstwhile Ascian flunky in the back as part of the process was a masterstroke, and one I'm surprised the Unsundered Lahabrea never saw coming. Thordan's hubris though was his downfall - surely he should have known trying to take down the Warrior of Light, the one who had built a career effortlessly killing Primals like what he had just become was not going to end well for him. But yeah, I definetely respect the sheer temerity of it. And as fitting for Knights of the Round, it was physically impressive too.

Zenos gobbling up what was left of the Mothercrystal that hadn't been used as Ragnarok fuel and becoming Shinryu one last time to serve as the final battle field in EW needs special mention. I mean, my WoL never could live it down having to accept such help but, given the circumstances, she was hardly in a position to argue. And doing so he had to break through the illusory world's shell that Meteion had created, no easy task.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

, or Hades? Primals that shaped entire stars?

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Hades wasn't a Primal though, but just Emet's natural Ancient transformation ability (Hades being Emet's real name) - all Ancients were capable of doing that (Hermes did the same thing at the end of Ktsis Hyperboria). Which raises questions whether how much of Hydaelyn was really a Primal and how much was just Venat's transformation ability empowered further by it. But, I guess the whole thing is rendered moot anyway.

Definitely Zenos resummoning Shinryu, and then flying to Ultima Thule on his own without a guidance crystal nor knowledge of space travel.

Computer guidance system? Nah. Just becomes Shinryu, obtains escape velocity, and travels upon, "the light of the stars."

Our Hunt ends this day. There is nowhere you can flee that we cannot follow!

Put more eloquently:

One man turns into a draconic primal originally summoned as the embodiment of hatred, flies to the furthest point in the universe, bids the Savior of Etheirys to ride upon his back, and chases down a god-like being composed of pure despair.

Of course, perhaps you think of all that as just epic rather than audacious.

Well, how about the time the same guy decided to keep that same primal as a trophy to be unleashed and then used... not for some grand purpose that any other primal was ever invoked for, but for a singular contest against a single warrior.

We tower above the gods! You by your gift, I by my might!

For Zenos, Primals are play things. If that's not audacious, then I don't know what is!

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Definitely Zenos resummoning Shinryu, and then flying to Ultima Thule on his own without a guidance crystal nor knowledge of space travel.

Computer guidance system? Nah. Just becomes Shinryu, obtains escape velocity, and travels upon, "the light of the stars."

Our Hunt ends this day. There is nowhere you can flee that we cannot follow!

Put more eloquently:

One man turns into a draconic primal originally summoned as the embodiment of hatred, flies to the furthest point in the universe, bids the Savior of Etheirys to ride upon his back, and chases down a god-like being composed of pure despair.

Of course, perhaps you think of all that as just epic rather than audacious.

Well, how about the time the same guy decided to keep that same primal as a trophy to be unleashed and then used... not for some grand purpose that any other primal was ever invoked for, but for a singular contest against a single warrior.

We tower above the gods! You by your gift, I by my might!

For Zenos, Primals are play things. If that's not audacious, then I don't know what is!

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Zenos really is the most extra guy there is, and I love him dearly for it. Bring me more my friend! All you have to bare is not enough to satisfy me! Until our last is spent!

The fact that people can still say

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

Zenos really is the most extra guy there is

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after he spent an entire expansion standing next to Amon-Fandaniel for comparison really speaks to the veracity of the statement.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The fact that people can still say


after he spent an entire expansion standing next to Amon-Fandaniel for comparison really speaks to the veracity of the statement.

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I think there's a core difference between Amon and Zenos in extra-ness, and it comes from the actual definition of the word: extra means more than necessary.

The thing about Amon's plan is that there was no smaller way he could've achieved it. He's trying to go down in a big ball of spite and rage against the world, in large part because as an Ascian it's physically impossible for him to go peacefully and quietly. Did he go above and beyond even then? Yes, absolutely, but dressing as a butler for an unnecessary dinner doesn't count for much when one of your smallest functional plan components is 'enslaving an imperial capital'.

Zenos is more extra because when he's going big, it's basically for no reason. He didn't possess Shinryu at Ala Mhigo because it was necessary, he just wanted to fight; he could've done that himself, but he went big because he could. He didn't angle for possessing Zodiark because it was necessary, he went for it because it was there. Very few characters get more extra than Zenos, because Zenos loves himself some overkill.

...which weirdly means I actually can't consider him as the most ambitious primal summon, because an ambitious plan is one with such high aspirations that it becomes difficult to achieve. And while yeah, Zenos has had ambitious plans before (mostly the whole Zodiark thing), the time he summoned a primal? It was, again, just a very simple requirement that he decided to do in the most over-the-top and elaborate way possible. I feel like the most ambitious primal summoning has to be one that was aiming beyond what anyone could ever have expected, rather than someone who just decided to go big for fun.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I feel like the most ambitious primal summoning has to be one that was aiming beyond what anyone could ever have expected, rather than someone who just decided to go big for fun.

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That's just it, though. Most everyone who ever summons a primal does it usually as part of a collective for a grand purpose such as defending their entire people or putting an entire people down. These most basic of precepts are even present in the eldest two primals, Zodiark (defend people) and Hydaelyn (destroy people).

Then there's Zenos. Summoning Shinryu with leftovers(why were there leftovers anyway, didn't they say that it took all of the mothercrystal just for the Ragnarok in the first place?). Using one, single primal to travel that same distance as all other primals summoned for the Ragnarok. Then continuing to use said primal as a keystone in the WoL combating Meteion.

Ambition's definition as a verb is: "To seek after earnestly; aspire to." And Zenos did that more than anyone, even serving to highlight the earnest pursuit of simple pleasure as a bulwark against all encompassing despair.

And he succeeds in his ambition. The goal may be small, but there is literally no one else in the story who has a smaller goal when it comes to using/summoning a primal. And there are precious few primals that actually succeed their summoner's ambition. And fewer still done with audacity.

Edit: (Although it is sort of fun to think about how similar Zenos's purpose for summoning Shinryu was to Gilgamesh's accidental summoning of Enkidu. Ultimately, the ambition of both was to be with their friend.)

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

That's just it, though. Most everyone who ever summons a primal does it usually as part of a collective for a grand purpose such as defending their entire people or putting an entire people down. These most basic of precepts are even present in the eldest two primals, Zodiark (defend people) and Hydaelyn (destroy people).

Then there's Zenos. Summoning Shinryu with leftovers(why were there leftovers anyway, didn't they say that it took all of the mothercrystal just for the Ragnarok in the first place?). Using one, single primal to travel that same distance as all other primals summoned for the Ragnarok. Then continuing to use said primal as a keystone in the WoL combating Meteion.

Ambition's definition as a verb is: "To seek after earnestly; aspire to." And Zenos did that more than anyone, even serving to highlight the earnest pursuit of simple pleasure as a bulwark against all encompassing despair.

And he succeeds in his ambition. The goal may be small, but there is literally no one else in the story who has a smaller goal when it comes to using/summoning a primal. And there are precious few primals that actually succeed their summoner's ambition. And fewer still done with audacity.

Edit: (Although it is sort of fun to think about how similar Zenos's purpose for summoning Shinryu was to Gilgamesh's accidental summoning of Enkidu. Ultimately, the ambition of both was to be with their friend.)

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One has to acknowledge how he went about the whole thing too. He marched up to probably the largest gathering of the nations in one place claiming to be an associate of the Scions. Whilst I have no doubt whatsoever that he had absolutely no interest in trying to win a popularity contest, its probably fair to say that everyone present in Old Sharlayan at that moment either feared or hated him (or both), and he almost definitely would've known that.

Yet he managed to convince a group of people who'd likely sooner he'd remained dead to help him get what he wanted.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Also the Ifrit example wouldn't have been a primal..

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Using ifrit to keep a volcano from exploding, was the very first primal ever made.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

And he succeeds in his ambition. The goal may be small, but there is literally no one else in the story who has a smaller goal when it comes to using/summoning a primal. And there are precious few primals that actually succeed their summoner's ambition. And fewer still done with audacity.

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I mean, success is also not part of ambition. If it was, our list of contenders for 'most ambitious summoning' would be way shorter! (I think it's like... Ilberd's Shinryu, Zodiark and Hydaelyn, Anima, maybe that first historical Titan summoning; I had Tsukuyomi on this list but I'm not sure I'd call it a success).

If anything I feel like Zenos' Shinryu should be on a different list of least inspired/ambitious/considered primals; he didn't turn up to Sharlayan planning to summon a primal, he didn't have a plan at all and just happened to have a fitting trick when he heard the situation. Given both the aether and strong ideals required for summoning a primal, it's rather exceptional when someone can crack out a summon basically on a whim or by mistake. Ambition isn't exactly a requirement of primal summoning, but it's rare it's not part of the recipe, so those rarities are exceptional.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Using ifrit to keep a volcano from exploding, was the very first primal ever made.

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Ifrita was not a primal, she was just a concept swiped from the libraries. Primals are an alternative, cranked-up and less regimented (and later, intentionally corrupted) form of creation magic, they are not the same thing.

The first thing we know of that's actually called a primal was Zodiark. However, there may have been others before him; I'm personally of the theory that Quetzacoatl from Akadaemia Anyder was a primal, but it was a pretty wimpy and unambitious one as far as the category takes us.

I wonder. I don't think that the story has given us the complete picture on the differences between Concepts and Primals. For example, the 'Primals' that help power the Ragnarok are technically made with Creation magic. Yet their banter seems very similar to their Summoning magic counterparts.

I do think the two approaches do have more differences than what we've been shown. For example, Creations were largely viewed as subservient and disposable, while Primals are worshipped, despite the physical 'forms' being the same. My gut feeling here is the difference will eventually be revealed to be that Creations are rooted in intellect and aether manipulation in the traditional sense, while Summoning draws on emotion and faith, which may carry an as yet undisclosed dynamis component. But that's one of the reasons why I want to see what the Meracydians thought about the art. Summoning is one of Final Fantasy's most iconic techniques. Is it really just 'derivative Creation magic'?

As for the topic, it depends. 'Ambitious' in this context has to mean 'difficult'. 'Audacious' could be either 'risky' or 'disrespectful' in context. If it's the latter, you could make a good case for Ilberd's battlefield summoning of Shinryu on the bodies of the fallen, Zenos' summoning of Anima using the remains of his father whom he murdered, and Fandaniel's destruction of Zodiark to usher in the Final Days. If it's the latter, then both the original summoning of Zodiark and Hydaelyn were both in uncharted territory with significant risks involved. Of course, the Amaurotine leadership were playing 4D chess with each other the whole time (the ramifications of which are still pending in Pandaemonium/Myths), so it's hard to say how much risk any of them were actually taking.