is anybody else tired of the way savage is structured?

i'm not talking about gear though there are some pretty notable grievances there but this is not the reason why i made this thread

i was pretty fatigued from fights with no checkpoints (e4 and e8) to where i have no real desire for future fights to be designed that way. it's okay to have in an ultimate but in savage it's just frustrating to wipe at the end of a 12-13 minute fight because somebody choked up

and now i'm feeling fatigue from doorbosses. maybe it's the way they designed this tier but it feels like they were blinded by the desire to prevent any mechanics whatsoever from being cheesed or otherwise done in a non-standard way. (this isn't the only example as i know there are other instances of this, but for example in e10s you could shield through and cheese the dog orb mechanic, in p1s you could sac one of the cubes, and in p2s a paladin or gunbreaker could invuln cheese a mech towards the end of the fight without taking a DD, since their invuln prevents them from taking any damage and having the dd applied.)

at this point i'd say it'd be worth considering just doing away with doorbosses in a different way, and that way is to just make a 5th floor

I will be open to a tier not having a door boss and instead making the final boss have more interesting mechanics to make up for it. I think it would be nice if a tier play out like a dungeon where we have to fight our way to the boss much like they did in with the turns in ARR instead just spawning us on the boss floor. Yeah it seem like with this current raid tier they don't like the fact that tanks can just invul certain mechanics with out no consequence and I feel they should make more interesting mechanics that are more fun and engaging where we don't have to feel like we have cheese as much.

I am not tired of the structure.

But I feel that P8S has less filler mechanics like many other last floors, and just puzzle after puzzle after puzzle, which makes the doorboss more draining.

I have thought about what SE is really trying to achieve with this and I agree that it’s like they want a 5th floor, but only in savage and in order to prevent adding a 5th in the normal version, they have to do this doorboss stuff. Maybe they should just make a 5th floor.

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Originally Posted by Escence

I will be open to a tier not having a door boss and instead making the final boss have more interesting mechanics to make up for it. I think it would be nice if a tier play out like a dungeon where we have to fight our way to the boss much like they did in with the turns in ARR instead just spawning us on the boss floor. Yeah it seem like with this current raid tier they don't like the fact that tanks can just invul certain mechanics with out no consequence and I feel they should make more interesting mechanics that are more fun and engaging where we don't have to feel like we have cheese as much.

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I feel like they could make mechanics so much more interesting if they

1) Remove tank invulns period and

2) Limited the number of raises you get in a pull.

Those two things together let you cheese so much.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

2) Limited the number of raises you get in a pull.

Those two things together let you cheese so much.

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to be honest, it used to be kinda limited because unless a healer could find 7 seconds to cast, it was 2 rez per minute or 3 if you had a summoner, which was rare because people gravitated to easier jobs that fit their lore better.

Then red mage came in stormblood and everyone played it. There was always a rdm in your party and that transformed the game. It was no longer “if healers die it’s over”. You could just bring red mages as way to cheese a lot of things that PF wasn’t good at.

let's just face it, the way P8S is designed is that it's less recoverable after someone screws up. in this fight if someone screws up it's mostly a wipe. very few spots where you can rez and continue the fight and hobble along to the end. i think that's where most groups are failing at, because they're used to being able to just get by, but not in this one.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

let's just face it, the way P8S is designed is that it's less recoverable after someone screws up. in this fight if someone screws up it's mostly a wipe. very few spots where you can rez and continue the fight and hobble along to the end. i think that's where most groups are failing at, because they're used to being able to just get by, but not in this one.

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I mean, that doesn't sound like a uniquely P8S thing. I recall plenty of wipes in P1S cause 1 person messed up Intemp or Chains.

I'll be honest, this tier has not been fun at all for me, and it's not because of the DoTs (that haven't been a threat since like week three). The fights just aren't fun to me.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I mean, that doesn't sound like a uniquely P8S thing. I recall plenty of wipes in P1S cause 1 person messed up Intemp or Chains.

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The point is that is just those two mechanics. In P8S, every single mechanic is like chains or intemp. In P1S you could just rez lots while dodging elements and cleaves, or while going in and out. Even tanks could die a lot. Once gear made the dps check like nothing. P8S doesn’t have that sort of filler that allows rez and there are final floors previously that did have filler like that, so this is why it’s been harder on people.

They should definitely split it into 2 fights and just have 5 bosses at this point. Both p8s Part1 and 2 are almost full boss fights. A 5th fight would also fix some gear issues since both floor 4 and 5 would drop loot.

As for the tier itself, I enjoyed it but it wasn't amazing. P8s was a good fight. Carby however was probably one of my favorite first boss of the tier fights in a long time. Good aesthetics, good mechanics, good pacing, but nothing crazy that you needed to study guides for all week. P6 and 7 took a nosedive, especially p6, and were bland and boring fights mechanically with the best part of p7s being the arena.

However, I think what hurt Savage most for me this tier is job design. The tier really wasn't that bad compared to others and had some good points, but I've just had enough of the same dull rotations, 1-2-3 and 2 min bursts, spamming Glare for hours and doing a lot of the same things as ShB just simplified a bit more. Job design is in a dire state and it really hurts the enjoyment of combat content for me.

I don't mind door bosses, but I definitely think the checkpoint should hold till the weekly reset. Outside of that, my only real complaint with savage is that a single player can wipe the entire party. I'm kind of over that type of design in MMO boss fights.

Yeah, it could use a fix, but having toured the forums of everything from XIV to Lost Ark to WoW to Destiny, I'm not entirely sure the relevant patch is entirely a software one or if it's more of a human one :(

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

i'm not talking about gear though there are some pretty notable grievances there but this is not the reason why i made this thread

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To be fair, gear is part of the problem (in particular, XIV's chronic problem with chasing off middling-skill players from endgame) - or more specifically, the loot system.

I'm not sure what much can be done about it, though. If you fix the loot system so friendly groups aren't stymied by "one chest, no chest" BS, you enable what it's designed to keep a lid on - the hardcore/influencer set being able to pump out tons of gear right off the bat through intensive time investment, then gatekeeping the hell out of things so instead of benefiting the greater playerbase as desired, it actually works against them (what, you didn't push as hard as we did? You didn't sign up for our winky wink boost services, er, "donate to our stream" in exchange for being in the run? I guess you're just not putting in enough effort! Gtfo, entitled scum!).

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i was pretty fatigued from fights with no checkpoints (e4 and e8) to where i have no real desire for future fights to be designed that way. it's okay to have in an ultimate but in savage it's just frustrating to wipe at the end of a 12-13 minute fight because somebody choked up

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This is definitely true, especially with Shadowbringers' return to adding increasingly nasty mechanics later on in the fights (remember Cycles? Black Smokers? ...).

Stormblood probably struck the most practical medium in this case (the fights being long and you could still wipe late if you choked up, but at least later mechs tended to just be combos of the encounter legos used earlier in the fight. Early on at least there were few exceptions, such as Shinryu Ex which was part of why that fight was so bloody miserable to PF ... and of course it was the first trial I had to 99 for the mount too LOL).

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and now i'm feeling fatigue from doorbosses. maybe it's the way they designed this tier but it feels like they were blinded by the desire to prevent any mechanics whatsoever from being cheesed or otherwise done in a non-standard way.

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Unfortunately a product of the modern player it seems: what used to be reserved for the competitive speedrunner (which used to be almost exclusively a solo pursuit, for that matter) has now become mainstreamed to the point that if cheese exists, not only will it be used, but it will be expected to be used. People that don't know the cheese (even if they know the fight) will be considered unskilled, and people that refuse to do it (even if it's risky, like the old Phantom Train ghosts)? Well, that's hindering. Griefing! Ugh.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I feel like they could make mechanics so much more interesting if they

1) Remove tank invulns period and

2) Limited the number of raises you get in a pull.

Those two things together let you cheese so much.

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The first could be nerfed (as e.g. WoW does, where tank invulns work, but bosses are usually smart enough that they simply ignore an invulned tank and go for another target instead for the duration, so invuln skills in general end up mostly only of real use for emergencies - something XIV's server structure can't really handle well - or for "tower" type AoEs. Not stacks because WoW considers an invulned person not to exist at all rather than give them a share of the stack like in XIV).

Rezzes do permit a certain amount of cheese, and I've frequently pinned XIV's increasingly vice-like-grip emphasis on tight DPS checks (to the point some people have compared some recent tiers to Alexander hell all over again) to the ready accessibility of rez.

I'm not sure if there's a good solution to that in 8-person fights though. They have done some interesting things with restricted rez (BA, DRS) but that seems to depend on the large-group environment to really work well (as with Normal and Heroic raids in WoW, for that matter). I expect we lost something in the transition over the years to smaller, more easily logistically handled raiding :(

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Then red mage came in stormblood and everyone played it. There was always a rdm in your party and that transformed the game. It was no longer “if healers die it’s over”. You could just bring red mages as way to cheese a lot of things that PF wasn’t good at.

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Tell me about it, as a healer main who came back mid Endwalker somewhat rusty, things have felt much higher pressure than they used to even in dungeons, and part of it is likely that instead of RDMs all over the place we have RPRs now ...