Middleground between normal/ hard content + coils of bahamut rework

I dont know if anyone share this opinion, but i feel like the game lacks a good middleground between normal and hard content.

Lets take Trials as an example.

You either do an normal version of the boss, or you do the extreme version.
The problem is, that even if you do the normal version 900 times, the extreme will still use mechanics that you never seen before and dont know how to deal with it.
A good example for this, is Diamond Weapon and the numbered cleaves mechanic.
No matter how many times you do the normal mode, you will never experience that mechanic unless you go into extreme.

I feel like there should be a middle ground version of fights like this, where the mechanic still occurs exactly like it does on extreme, but the attacks are telegraphed and less lethal overall so you can learn how to deal with it eventually,even through roulettes.
That way you could prepare for extreme fights without relying on youtube guides or having to go through the party finder rabbit hole.

I understand that some people like to figure out the fights in the hard way, but it makes no sense to not have a mode like this on fights that are not current content anymore.
Most people just get old content out of the way anyway by unsyncing and its not like you see many blind prog on old savage/extreme content, it is almost exclusively unsynced mount farming.

But by having a mode that helps players prepare for the hard mode of these fights, it would revitalize old content because suddenly there are more people willing to try it.
Not to mention how much pressure it would take off from mentor roulettes, extreme fights would not be such a boogeyman when people are more prepared for it overall.


As for the Coils of Bahamut part of my post.
When i first reached lvl50 and started to unlock the coils raid series, i cannot express how disheartened i was when i saw, that nobody is doing these raids.

At level 50, you suddenly unlock a horrendous amount of stuff in a very short period of time, that includes ARR Extremes and Coils.
It leaves a very bad taste in your mouth as a new player, when suddenly you just unlock a lot of stuff, that has dead que times and if you ask players about it, everyone will just say "dont bother with it" or "just unsync it".

We have the whole lvl50 normal raid series virtually unusable because of old design philosophy and all it does is turning away players in a part of the game that is already very difficult to get through. (post ARR)
Square really needs to rebuild Coils of Bahamut so it becomes actual content for low level players and obviously include the remade version in normal raid roulette for everyone else.
It baffles me how this part of the game is flat out ignored and left for dead for so long while we spend time adding trust system to dungeons that never had problems funneling players into it to begin with.

Thank you for listening this long, im curious what everyone else thinks about this.

Extreme is the middle ground.

Extreme requires more skill and coordination than 'normal' content, but you can easy jump into a PF or even DF sometimes, and complete it with randoms without voice comms.
Extremes build upon the 'normal' versions of them, making the normal version a learning tool for the Extreme.

Savage is a huge step up from Extreme, and requires a lot more focus, time learning, and party coordination.

As someone who mainly plays casually these days, I can still easily jump into an Extreme PF and prog that fight in an hour or two. But Savage isn't really an option without more prep and more time commitment.

Now I do think Coils is in need of a bit of a rework to make it a bit more accessible. That said, if anything is making you disheartened about the lack of player involvement, start a PF for it. No content in this game is 'dead', just because it's not on a roulette doesn't mean you can't find players to join you for it.

Extremes are pretty easy as it is. If you're worried about a bad PF group while you learn the fight just create your own listing for it and make it clear in the bio that it's a learning party. In my experience people are usually pretty chill as long as the right expectations are set at the beginning.

I'm on the same DC as you, and a lot of what you're saying isn't stacking up to me. There are often synced prog groups on PF, and if you stick up a listing it will fill.

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The problem is, that even if you do the normal version 900 times, the extreme will still use mechanics that you never seen before and dont know how to deal with it.
A good example for this, is Diamond Weapon and the numbered cleaves mechanic.
No matter how many times you do the normal mode, you will never experience that mechanic unless you go into extreme.

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I don't get this. These are harder versions of the boss, so they introduce new challenges to learn.

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I feel like there should be a middle ground version of fights like this, where the mechanic still occurs exactly like it does on extreme, but the attacks are telegraphed and less lethal overall so you can learn how to deal with it eventually,even through roulettes.

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There already is a middle ground version of the Extremes - heck, there are two:

In order, hardest to easiest:
MINE: Synced, Min iLevel, No Echo - as close to how it was released as possible
Synced/No Echo: Synced, No Echo - A little easier (probably how most casual syncs clear)
Synced + Echo: Synced with Echo active (The bridging difficulty one)
Unsynced

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I understand that some people like to figure out the fights in the hard way, but it makes no sense to not have a mode like this on fights that are not current content anymore.
Most people just get old content out of the way anyway by unsyncing and its not like you see many blind prog on old savage/extreme content, it is almost exclusively unsynced mount farming.

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There are lots of players who want to run the content synced and blind. While mount farm groups are common, this doesn't mean players don't want to do MINE and/or blind progs.

If there isn't a blind prog group on PF, put up a PF listing and its just as likely to fill as any other. You can do it, trust me, really... you can.

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As for the Coils of Bahamut part of my post.
When i first reached lvl50 and started to unlock the coils raid series, i cannot express how disheartened i was when i saw, that nobody is doing these raids.

At level 50, you suddenly unlock a horrendous amount of stuff in a very short period of time, that includes ARR Extremes and Coils.
It leaves a very bad taste in your mouth as a new player, when suddenly you just unlock a lot of stuff, that has dead que times and if you ask players about it, everyone will just say "dont bother with it" or "just unsync it".

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This isn't because the content is dead, its because you're queueing for it in Duty Finder. High end content is typically ran through Party Finder, or through FC groups.

I kind of get people bailing out when they roll an Ex in MR. These battles take some preparation and time to prog. Most Ex's are like 1-2 hours to blind prog so they are better suited to PF.

Extremes are a good middle ground because you can do them in a day, but I do agree that there could be normal content that is slightly more fun ie. dungeons where you wipe if you don't use reprisal and tank busters kill you if you don't mitigate.

As it is now, the joy in dungeons comes from pulling mob packs. You wouldn't think the only challenge in dungeons would come from trash, but it does.

I don't think SE will do it though, because they don't want to pressure casual players to do hard content. If they did it, it would probably be thrown into some out-of-notice thing like Criterion.

We had "hard mode" dungeons before and nobody was regarding them as hard. They were just extra dungeons and stopped being made when we had enough dungeons.

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Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

It baffles me how this part of the game is flat out ignored and left for dead for so long while we spend time adding trust system to dungeons that never had problems funneling players into it to begin with.

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Most old content is flat out ignored. It took them years to get round to revamping ARR, then to adding trusts, then to revamping all MSQ dungeons. Why? Because the newest content is and always will be the priority. Why? Because that is what makes players return to the game, subscribe and login.

Revamping old things is more of a long-term, side project, often done in their free time (like flying in ARR was).

The jump between Normal and Extreme is too big for the more casual players. People want to brush it off as if the game was good at introducing people to harder content with Extremes, it is not.

Something like 4 out of 5 friends found the jump too big compared to other games.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

The jump between Normal and Extreme is too big for the more casual players. People want to brush it off as if the game was good at introducing people to harder content with Extremes, it is not.

Something like 4 out of 5 friends found the jump too big compared to other games.

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I mean, Susano EX is demonstrably easier than Sunsano normal, due to ilevel scaling, and the only new mechanic is jumping over the void gap.
Lakshmi, Titania and Innocence were similarly 'easy' in comparison to other Extremes even if harder than normal mode, and Zodiark is mostly mindless follow-the-leader.
The mid-expansion Extremes are definitely stepping stones. Though Hydaelyn is a bit of an outlier I'd say, as movement and timing is very specific.

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Originally Posted by AyumiCosplayGlam

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Off topic: Your Ra looks like Futaba from P5 and I love it.

On topic: Coils is a bit of a special case in terms of people not wanting to do it because of how rough certain ones can be sync'd. I agree with the person at the top who said they're in need of a rework because they are. I recently went through a couple of the savages MINE/sync no echo depending on which fight (I had a group that wanted to do them as they were on Day 1) and it's actually very apparent how different they are compared to our other raid series, not just in terms of difficulty (in my opinion at least). You can probably still get normal runs done though via the PF (DF is dead, don't even try) as I see groups still forming for those and some opt to do them unsync'd for certain gear part drops that can be sold for a little profit. Savage is a whole other story though lol.

As far as difficulty ranges in general, I feel like the same could be accomplished by just fitting more mechs into the normal version and giving more of an opportunity there rather than create an entirely new difficulty level. As others have said, extreme really is the next level up from normal but doesn't mean normal can't be adjusted to provide more of a challenge.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

The jump between Normal and Extreme is too big for the more casual players. People want to brush it off as if the game was good at introducing people to harder content with Extremes, it is not.

Something like 4 out of 5 friends found the jump too big compared to other games.

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They're talking about the jump from Normal to Extreme, not Savage though.

I don't think I really agree about the jump from Ex to Savage either. The content isn't all made equal, Thordan and Sephirot MINE are harder than some of the Savages and probably work as a decent stepping stone.

I think the problem some people have with the jump to Savage is cheesing the Extremes rather than trying to MINE them. Rushing the MSQ to endgame while ignoring or cheesing the hard content along the way, relying hard on guides, then sitting at current Savage wondering why you can't get a clear is a thing.

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Originally Posted by Tiramu

They're talking about the jump from Normal to Extreme, not Savage though.

I don't think I really agree about the jump from Ex to Savage either. The content isn't all made equal, Thordan and Sephirot MINE are harder than some of the Savages and probably work as a decent stepping stone.

I think the problem some people have with the jump to Savage is cheesing the Extremes rather than trying to MINE them. Rushing the MSQ to endgame while ignoring or cheesing the hard content along the way, relying hard on guides, then sitting at current Savage wondering why you can't get a clear is a thing.

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I don't think guides are a problem, but I agree with everything else. In general, I feel like people don't run the content enough and at the proper level. There's a lot to be learned from running all the lower tier content because a lot of that stuff gets reused in extreme / savage. Guides are helpful when people are paying attention to everything and getting the practice they need before jumping into Duty Complete. Stat priorities likely get overlooked in the rush as well and that has an effect on performance.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Though Hydaelyn is a bit of an outlier I'd say, as movement and timing is very specific.

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Titania was definitely like that too and a lot of people struggled with it compared to Innocence. I saw people struggle with the knockbacks, the DPS checks, the tethers and even just running to their spots.

The people who found Titania easy would also have found that one easy.

Wouldn't mind a Alliance CT and Coils rework either way, pulling them up to current standards.

They kind of feel too important for the story to be let on the side, especially since Cape Westwind, Castrum Meridianum and the Praetorium have gotten significant changes gameplay wise.

I agree that Extremes are a middle ground. And I consider BA, CLL and DR to be middle-ground too.
Extremes are basically crumbs however. And the other three while fun, have a long, long grind before you can access them. Meanwhile hardcore raiders get at least 4 fights every 2 patches, and ultimates.

I've seen other people comment this online and I'll echo their sentiments: Criterion non-savage was the perfect chance to add a middle-ground/"midcore" level endgame dungeon content and they blew it by making essentially 2 savage equivalents instead. Just ONE additional recurring series of content for the middle-ground would have been huge IMO. At least there is higher/lower floors of deep dungeons I guess...

A lot of people are fine with the content as-is and are perfectly happy with Extremes serving as the “middle ground”.

That is, until they leave the game to play something else because hardcore raiding doesn’t interest them.

Extremes don’t have a lot of rewards. We get one per patch. And once you’re done, you’re done. Farming is only needed for the mount. And there’s just ONE per patch. It’s not a proper game mode. It’s not a replacement for playing other games. As it stands, raiding in FFXIV is not a serious endeavor unless you are “hardcore”—and, even then, only for half the year. Extremes are a pittance. Sure, it’s content—technically. But it lasts for ten minutes and you’re paying $13 a month to do the same 10-minute fight and over again for no rewards. That’s not how gaming is supposed to be.

Suffice to say, FFXIV isn’t the most popular (or second or third-most popular) MMO for a reason. It’s not a good “easy” game—as the MSQ is basically a visual novel. It’s not a good “mid core” game, as extremes are as shallow as a puddle. And it’s not even a good “hardcore” game, as the annual cycle doesn’t keep people entertained all year long.

So what exactly are we good for?

https://files.catbox.moe/1yn1eo.jpg

extremes are good, but few and far between.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

It’s not a good “easy” game—as the MSQ is basically a visual novel. It’s not a good “mid core” game, as extremes are as shallow as a puddle. And it’s not even a good “hardcore” game, as the annual cycle doesn’t keep people entertained all year long.

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It's a good easy game for some people and not others.

It's a good hardcore game depending on what you define as hardcore. Hardcore in the sense of spending all your time playing often involves collecting (mounts, achievements, or something else) and most people I see doing that are busy all year grinding one thing or another.

Hardcore in the sense of doing the hardest content, sure, that doesn't last all year because no developer is really going to be able to make enough content that you aren't repeating the same thing a lot. It takes them months to make something that you play for 10 minutes. Imagine the resources it would take for them to make a fight that lasts 365 days.

But when I think of midcore, I'm blanking so you probably have a point about that.

I don't understand the point of talking about accessibility on ten year old content. It never is, and never will be sought out by players doing it while leveling to 90 with the exception of maybe 0.18% of people doing it. It's not realistic to ask for any changes to Coil, just like it's unrealistic to ask about Alexander, or Eden, or Omega. The most they did was throw things in there for Blue Mage, so that's the best option people have outside of unsynch'd. At least, until you have 7 people who are really, really bored and want to do it despite getting nothing out of it. I've only seen people doing it synched once, and that was since Heavensward where raiding was literally dead for all but the hardcore until A9.

And frankly, the options for growth are given to them via deep palace. Story just sets a bar below the ground, which is not acceptable if you want people to actually progress. I don't think Square remotely cares about it since people have fought for player growth for ten years now and nothing has been done. The bar was simply lowered instead because 'Not getting stepped on by a giant dragon lumbering forward is too hard'. Yes, that was a genuine complaint. You know what the answer to Steps of Faith complaints should have been? "Too bad". But instead it got nerfed into oblivion for no reason. I don't think it's a matter of SE being incompetent at this point. They simply don't want player progression to be a remote thought, and that's sad.

Extremes are not the middle ground. I really hate the one hit kills mechanics. At least they can do is make extremes have more forgiveness. Some of the dance moves we’re required to memorize have like 5 different things we have to look at and do (6.3 extreme).

The normal modes would show you the boss attack and the extreme mode will add 3 or 4 moves on top of that move. It would be nice if the devs trained players by making normal mode do the same moves as extreme but slower and more forgiving.

I can't tell for the difficulty part, since i'm actually fine with the current syste. For my wife a mid difficulty could help her since she lack of selfconfident for extrem, it might help her passing the gap and go in extrem fight.
For the bahamut coil i think a "normal" version should be had so people could enjoy both the fight and the story and the current version could be renamed as "savage" just as the other 8 man raid

I would really like to see more extreme level difficulty content. People that want difficult content have savage+ultimate, people that want casual content get dungeons/normal raids/alliance raids, whereas the middle ground players only get EX trials/unreal. (and unreal doesn't count when it's just the same old EX fights) The criterion dungeons were a step in the right direction in terms of giving those players more to do, but it'd still be nice to see more for the middle level players to do.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Extremes don’t have a lot of rewards. We get one per patch. And once you’re done, you’re done. Farming is only needed for the mount. And there’s just ONE per patch. It’s not a proper game mode.

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I think perspective accounts for a lot here. The drop rates for the mounts are abysmal, and the crafting mat which typically sales pretty high on its own also has a low drop rate. Weapon drops are great for desynthesis skill ups if they are not desired and provide a chance to obtain the crafting mat, and the most recent EX releases provide respectable weapons that are slightly better than the weapons acquired by tomes, and slightly less good from those acquired through savage raiding. Then there is also the music, and TT card, and some even drop furnishings or other misc items.

Replay factor is also there for those who simply love the fight. This is on the dev team, as if they design a fight that is fun, players will do it because it is fun. Some players also like to teach the fight to others, and will join prog groups even after obtaining all the rewards the duty has to offer.

Unreal trials also should be included. They are old fights, but many if not most players never got a chance to do these fights on release day, and it provides an interesting challenge for them. For the vets, they might enjoy revisiting an old foe, but at the current level cap. Faux Tales rewards are also very plentiful, and provides another mini game to play. Luck and skill are required to obtain these rewards, and I think that is an awesome system to have in the game.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Extreme is the middle ground.

Extreme requires more skill and coordination than 'normal' content, but you can easy jump into a PF or even DF sometimes, and complete it with randoms without voice comms.
Extremes build upon the 'normal' versions of them, making the normal version a learning tool for the Extreme.

Savage is a huge step up from Extreme, and requires a lot more focus, time learning, and party coordination.

As someone who mainly plays casually these days, I can still easily jump into an Extreme PF and prog that fight in an hour or two. But Savage isn't really an option without more prep and more time commitment.

Now I do think Coils is in need of a bit of a rework to make it a bit more accessible. That said, if anything is making you disheartened about the lack of player involvement, start a PF for it. No content in this game is 'dead', just because it's not on a roulette doesn't mean you can't find players to join you for it.

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This.

Extremes are not hard. They require you to memorize 2-3 mechanics and execute them.

Sit down, learn the fight, Clear and enjoy.

Step 1.) Dungeons on par with savage raids in terms of difficulty.
Step 2.) Actual worthwhile gear (or tome gear upgrade materials) from those dungeons instead of worthless cosmetics that hardly anyone wants.
Step 3.) ????
Step 4.) Profit

You know, what Criterion should have been.

Savage content in and of itself is not that challenging compared to the fights in many other games, but managing to find eight people whose personalities and schedules align is nightmarishly difficult. Getting those clears via PF is basically like getting teeth pulled without anesthetic. Introducing an option with similar difficulty that could be done with four people while yielding comparable rewards would more than satisfy most of the midcore crowd.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Step 1.) Dungeons on par with savage raids in terms of difficulty.
Step 2.) Actual worthwhile gear (or tome gear upgrade materials) from those dungeons instead of worthless cosmetics that hardly anyone wants.
Step 3.) ????
Step 4.) Profit

You know, what Criterion should have been.

Savage content in and of itself is not that challenging compared to the fights in many other games, but managing to find eight people whose personalities and schedules align is nightmarishly difficult. Getting those clears via PF is basically like getting teeth pulled without anesthetic. Introducing an option with similar difficulty that could be done with four people while yielding comparable rewards would more than satisfy most of the midcore crowd.

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Savage difficulty is hardcore content, not midcore content, most people in this thread are asking for midcore content to bridge the gap between story mode and savage raids, not for more hardcore savage content.

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Originally Posted by Altiel

I can't tell for the difficulty part, since i'm actually fine with the current syste. For my wife a mid difficulty could help her since she lack of selfconfident for extrem, it might help her passing the gap and go in extrem fight.
For the bahamut coil i think a "normal" version should be had so people could enjoy both the fight and the story and the current version could be renamed as "savage" just as the other 8 man raid

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The problem with doing that is there's already a savage coil of bahamut in the game, Nael has a savage version and a normal version, both beyond what is normally story level difficulty in this game, so what do you do there?

Savage is deemed "hardcore" content primarily because of the amount of organization required for it. In other words, getting a team that can work together is by far the hardest part. The actual fight difficulty really isn't that different from EX, typically. Allowing players to access something comparable with half the required people and suitable rewards would most certainly be satisfactory for the majority. It would be a way to get geared without having to jump straight into savage for progression, thus allowing people that might not otherwise want to do savage due to a lack of confidence, of time, of people they can call on, etc. an avenue of advancement that is much less time-consuming.

Scheduling and organization aside, another big thing that keeps people out of savages is a lack of confidence. There is a clear correlation between better equipment and greater confidence. Having this as an alternate gearing path would most definitely increase the number of players in the savage pool by giving them a better jumping off point for entry, rather than the "sink or swim" setup we have now. If you want a stepladder between normal and EX/savage, this is a really good way to do it. Purely midcore players could simply choose to stick to this content instead of pushing forward. Savage players could bypass it entirely.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Extremes are not the middle ground. I really hate the one hit kills mechanics. At least they can do is make extremes have more forgiveness. Some of the dance moves we’re required to memorize have like 5 different things we have to look at and do (6.3 extreme).

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Extremes are the middle ground because if you fail the choreography you will usually only kill yourself. It's unusual that one person failing to dodge a single attack will wipe the party in extreme. Contrast this to Savage where if one person fails to dodge a single attack they will often take the whole party down with them.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

The normal modes would show you the boss attack and the extreme mode will add 3 or 4 moves on top of that move. It would be nice if the devs trained players by making normal mode do the same moves as extreme but slower and more forgiving.

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This would make Extremes too easy. Extremes are already easy in that once you know the fight script, you can dodge everything without evening looking at most bosses. The balance is that (1) you must learn the fight on Extreme, which means you must make it through the earlier mechanics in order to see the later ones and (2) the new mechanics are often untelegraphed, so someone has to figure out how best to choreograph them so that everyone lives. By having the story mode fight include all the extreme mechanics at all, let alone with telegraphs, would trivialize the extreme version even more.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The problem with doing that is there's already a savage coil of bahamut in the game, Nael has a savage version and a normal version, both beyond what is normally story level difficulty in this game, so what do you do there?

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Second Coil (Savage) isn't really a Savage as we typically understand the term to mean. It's supposed to be the original difficulty of the Second Coil floors before they were nerfed while they were still relevant. There have been so many changes to the combat system since then that it's no longer representative of the original difficulty anyway, so either remove them or leave them as the new actual Savage raids for Second Coil; it doesn't really matter.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Step 1.) Dungeons on par with savage raids in terms of difficulty.
Step 2.) Actual worthwhile gear (or tome gear upgrade materials) from those dungeons instead of worthless cosmetics that hardly anyone wants.
Step 3.) ????
Step 4.) Profit

You know, what Criterion should have been.

Savage content in and of itself is not that challenging compared to the fights in many other games, but managing to find eight people whose personalities and schedules align is nightmarishly difficult. Getting those clears via PF is basically like getting teeth pulled without anesthetic. Introducing an option with similar difficulty that could be done with four people while yielding comparable rewards would more than satisfy most of the midcore crowd.

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Savage level content for 4 people with those kinds of rewards would interfere with Raids. You either get one or the other and you may as well just have the boss fights because no one wants to deal with trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Savage level content for 4 people with those kinds of rewards would interfere with Raids. You either get one or the other and you may as well just have the boss fights because no one wants to deal with trash mobs.

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People would still be forced to do savage if they want BiS, and there is a fairly noticeable difference in performance between having your item level capped and having your perfect stats. Besides, giving that kind of option would in fact incentivize more people to step foot in savage by way of giving them a taste of worthwhile gear alongside a nice confidence boost. You know what happens when your gear is good but not great? Most people feel compelled to amend this deficiency ASAP. It's already been proven to work in other, similar games. Why would it not work here?

As for only having boss fights, why not make it so the trash mobs are actually dangerous instead? Give them actual mechanics instead of brain dead AoE spam you avoid by taking a single step to the side. Force people to use those interrupts and CC options if they want to make it through the trash. Basic interrupt usage and a little CC is well within the bounds of what a midcore player should be capable of.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

People would still be forced to do savage if they want BiS, and there is a fairly noticeable difference in performance between having your item level capped and having your perfect stats. Besides, giving that kind of option would in fact incentivize more people to step foot in Savage by way of giving them a confidence boost. It's already been proven to work in other, similar games. Why would it not work here?

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There is a noticeable difference, in high end content.

Nothing except a current ultimate will ever require BiS gear, and the casual playerbase need to remember that.
Crafted gear can get you through 99% of the games content without issues.

Casuals shouldn't care about gear.

My personal opinion on the current content situation is there isn't enough to satisfy.

There just simply needs to be more Bozja, and Eureka type content, those are long and it kept the Players going for a while between a couple of patches in the cycle.

Given Eureka was kind of boring, but Bozja was in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

My personal opinion on the current content situation is there isn't enough to satisfy.

There just simply needs to be more Bozja, and Eureka type content, those are long and it kept the Players going for a while between a couple of patches in the cycle.

Given Eureka was kind of boring, but Bozja was in the right direction.

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100% prefer Eureka over Bozja, Bozja felt like a watered down casual version of Eureka with no real threat to dying.

But i agree we NEED exploratory content every expansion, right now there's just NOTHING to do in terms of midcore content.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

My personal opinion on the current content situation is there isn't enough to satisfy.

There just simply needs to be more Bozja, and Eureka type content, those are long and it kept the Players going for a while between a couple of patches in the cycle.

Given Eureka was kind of boring, but Bozja was in the right direction.

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Bozja fates are the best. We need something like them on each map. Maybe not every single fate but maybe 1 or 2. Also with the ability to difficulty scale so that even 1 person can clear them.

I’d rather get rid of all fates if we could have a couple of Bozja style fates. Maybe even Zadnor leveling system for each map. Giving players reason to be on the old maps. Otherwise everything is one and done.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Bozja fates are the best. We need something like them on each map. Maybe not every single fate but maybe 1 or 2. Also with the ability to difficulty scale so that even 1 person can clear them.

I’d rather get rid of all fates if we could have a couple of Bozja style fates. Maybe even Zadnor leveling system for each map. Giving players reason to be on the old maps. Otherwise everything is one and done.

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There was just one problem with those FATEs and it was the fact that people could melt several of them down quickly, denying others a shot at credit. If they remedied that situation, I'd welcome another exploration zone.

They really should try to make more use of the old Exploration zones and their respective Dungeons/Raids.

As for new ones, it would be nice if some of them occasionally overlapped old zones to push more activity into those, it would be less dev time to build the zone and more for other matters.

I mean the arena boss type not the random fates

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

They really should try to make more use of the old Exploration zones and their respective Dungeons/Raids.

As for new ones, it would be nice if some of them occasionally overlapped old zones to push more activity into those, it would be less dev time to build the zone and more for other matters.

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I agree. But I'll also add that at this point they could perfectly blend exploratory zone mechanics with the regular overworld so there actually is more to do than just quests giving worthless exp after you finish the MSQ and the open areas actually become more alive.