PvP

So I'm playing the CC again for the new rewards and I feel very frustrated of not being able to communicate in the chat, make a party, have a team composition that you chose etc.
I know that all these things are put in place to avoid toxicity but it's PvP and there has never been a PvP game or mode that wasn't toxic so, in my opinion, instead of focusing on making it completely non toxic they should focus on making it actually good and implement certain features that would make it easier to play with whom you like and the way you like, at the very least in the competitive queue, the unranked can stay like it is for people that just wanna play some PvP super casually and earn the season rewards.
Obviously these changes will bring metas, it will require more job balancing and resources from the devs, some people that want to play certain jobs might find it harder than before to do so depending on the meta etc but it will definitely make the competitive PvP much better in general.
I know PvP doesn't really matter in FF14 and the playerbase are not into competitive content against other players but I had to let these thoughts out as a person who used to love this type of content and basically played MMOs to PvP back in the days.

With everything I've seen, it's probably best that we can't use regular chat.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

With everything I've seen, it's probably best that we can't use regular chat.

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Nah. Once people start getting banned it would quiet down quite a bit, and be about what we have now, but with the opportunity to actually communicate and strategize with the team.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Nah. Once people start getting banned it would quiet down quite a bit, and be about what we have now, but with the opportunity to actually communicate and strategize with the team.

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That still wouldn't make a lot of participants any better. I say this as I'm probably on my 5th straight loss. lol

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

That still wouldn't make a lot of participants any better. I say this as I'm probably on my 5th straight loss. lol

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We have been on a longer time unable to communicate in smallscale PvP than we have been able to. It has been over 7 years at this point.

While I see the dangers of opening chat due to potential unwarranted toxicity:
1) Toxic behaviour is regulated, PvP or not
2) NOT being able to at least communicate at least at the start of the round is a ballache
3) We have no idea if being able to talk at the start of the round will actually result in improvement or not

Honestly, open the flood gates and let us see what happens and scale it back if it fails badly rather than never changing it ever again.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

We have been on a longer time unable to communicate in smallscale PvP than we have been able to. It has been over 7 years at this point.

While I see the dangers of opening chat due to potential unwarranted toxicity:
1) Toxic behaviour is regulated, PvP or not
2) NOT being able to at least communicate at least at the start of the round is a ballache
3) We have no idea if being able to talk at the start of the round will actually result in improvement or not

Honestly, open the flood gates and let us see what happens and scale it back if it fails badly rather than never changing it ever again.

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I'm not opposed to change, I just don't see the point in this one. I mean, I get why it's being asked for, but at the end of the day I really don't think it'll accomplish a whole lot. My entire experience with PvP in this game is why I feel this way.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Nah. Once people start getting banned it would quiet down quite a bit, and be about what we have now, but with the opportunity to actually communicate and strategize with the team.

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From personal experience in the past PvP systems, you'd need to ban quite a lot of people, and they'd still keep coming. That wouldn't work, not on PvP. There's something about PvP games in general that frustrate people more than PvE-type games do.

I kinda hate how just zoning into CC match disables ALL chat channels. I would like to type to other chats while waiting for people to load in and the gates to open, since that's completely dead air time right now.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

From personal experience in the past PvP systems, you'd need to ban quite a lot of people, and they'd still keep coming. That wouldn't work, not on PvP. There's something about PvP games in general that frustrate people more than PvE-type games do.

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This. Feast used to have open chat. It got crazy toxic, the devs said "ha ha, no more of that" and gave us the chat macros we have now. Frontlines is bad enough with open chat, ranging from plenty of "why does this team suck" or "everyone on my team needs to git gud and learn how to f'ing play" or worse. CC had a whole clause added to the ToS about "don't spam "Thanks!" or "Good job!" like the bootyblistered baby you are because you aren't winning against an unfortunately stronger team" (only in much nicer legalese) because that's precisely what was happening. It's the same with doing a squat emote for teabagging tbh, and why they said "just try to be a good sport ffs." There's no truly stopping toxicity in something competitive, you just lessen it any way you can, and this was the dev's way of doing just that.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

That still wouldn't make a lot of participants any better. I say this as I'm probably on my 5th straight loss. lol

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I was on about an 8-10 loss streak last night. No, not necessarily, but it might help some, and could help with coordination in general. I'd rather have the option than not.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

From personal experience in the past PvP systems, you'd need to ban quite a lot of people, and they'd still keep coming. That wouldn't work, not on PvP. There's something about PvP games in general that frustrate people more than PvE-type games do.

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GMs are paid for a reason, I say let them do their job. If people start getting mass banned, because they don't know how to communicate with others, that's on them. I have zero sympathy.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I was on about an 8-10 loss streak last night. No, not necessarily, but it might help some, and could help with coordination in general. I'd rather have the option than not.

GMs are paid for a reason, I say let them do their job. If people start getting mass banned, because they don't know how to communicate with others, that's on them. I have zero sympathy.

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The problem is dedicating resources and time on them trying to solve numerous disputes where one guy said this to the other guy or this team ganging up on this other guy and trying to figure out who's objectively and morally right or wrong in the situation because in this day and age crap like that can be taken out of context so easily. Especially on an MMO.

Of course some disputes are easier to handle when you have a clear view but imaging having to handle a lot of those messes on your plate. Its easier for the team to try to limit the potential issues from rising up and try to handle the few that get brought up. No amount of GM'ing isnt going to make people overally behave better. The reason why FFXIV is currently like this are because of those limitations set on us. Its obviously not perfect, but so is just letting everything loose.

That being said, Im very well aware that "life finds a way" anyway such as people spamming the premade messages because they're clearly being frustrated or trolling.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

There's something about PvP games in general that frustrate people more than PvE-type games do.

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It's because there's the ability to blame others for your own failings and as an out in just about every situation. PVP team based games also scale with frustration & toxicity as you increase elements like classes, roles and a reliance on micro & macro play.
I'm fine with the current system for talking for the most part. It's not suited to CC in the slightest since calls for CC would be extremely similar to a game like Overwatch which devolved into saying monkeymonkeymonkeymonkeymonkeydvadvadvadvadvadvadvaluciolucioluciolulululululu at the highest tier of play but it's what we have and there's no voice chat so that's fine too.

On the note of text chat, frontlines spam with sound effects is pretty bad already and you'll see people spam the same macro 3-4 times in an instant.
Now you give me open chat in a game like CC and I can make a macro that has a short wait interval and it can say BLM <se.1> BLM <se.1> BLM <se.1> BLM <se.1> then I hope you're prepared to hear a sound effect 60 times a minute or more, because there's 3 other like minded macro spammers who fell into the top tier macro meta game and I just eyed a BLM a bit out of cover who has guard on cooldown and our DRG would like the DRK to LB the objective and oh what's that our DRK wants to collapse in on the NIN and oh you quickly rattled out "NIN has LB" somewhere in there and someone's salty in spawn trying to go off on a mistake someone made a minute between the spam? Good luck.
The prohibited activities list may even have a note on this spam/sound effect spam but nobody's currently punished for it in frontlines and it would be the best way to call in CC so I can see that hellscape a mile away. Miss me with that.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

I kinda hate how just zoning into CC match disables ALL chat channels. I would like to type to other chats while waiting for people to load in and the gates to open, since that's completely dead air time right now.

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Solid feedback.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

From personal experience in the past PvP systems, you'd need to ban quite a lot of people, and they'd still keep coming. That wouldn't work, not on PvP. There's something about PvP games in general that frustrate people more than PvE-type games do.

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PvP is kind of like a lot of things in life. You don't usually have to worry about yourself. It's other people you have to worry about. That is why it frustrates me I guess since I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing. But I'm trucking along as best I can. I can be a force of nature on a personal level, but any team rises and falls together.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

You don't usually have to worry about yourself. It's other people you have to worry about. That is why it frustrates me I guess since I have a low tolerance for this sort of thing. But I'm trucking along as best I can.

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It's the inverse that led me to viewing PVP games in a more healthy manner and finding success. You speak on frustration and when I was younger I had that same view where I worried about others and their mistakes and I'd tilt at the drop of the hat.
Good luck with your games tho, finding a good balance is a hard grind. Hope you get some wins in soon.

Removing chat didnt remove toxicity but I am still in favor of not letting people waste time by typing up a novel.

Honestly, I just want to be able to play CC with friends. Though it seems SE doesn't care to add the ability to do this.

Just more weird design decisions on SE's part.

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Originally Posted by Arzalis

Honestly, I just want to be able to play CC with friends. Though it seems SE doesn't care to add the ability to do this.

Just more weird design decisions on SE's part.

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Yeah, I agree with this. I get that random people and random comps make for faster, more convenient queues, but not allowing people to play with their friends is definitely a huge drawback. As much as I loathe going up against premades in other games, I still think it should be a thing with CC.

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So I'm playing the CC again for the new rewards and I feel very frustrated of not being able to communicate in the chat

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To prevent you from screaming epithets, abuse, obscenities and rage threats via chat. I dont see an issue here.

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make a party, have a team composition that you chose etc.

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Not related to chat.

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I know that all these things are put in place to avoid toxicity

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They are, yes.

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but it's PvP

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...and?

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and there has never been a PvP game or mode that wasn't toxic

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FF 14 isnt a pvp game, and if you cant do pvp and not be toxic thats a YOU problem.

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so, in my opinion, instead of focusing on making it completely non toxic they should focus on making it actually good

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Seeing how popular CC is, it is good.

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and implement certain features that would make it easier to play with whom you like and the way you like, at the very least in the competitive queue, the unranked can stay like it is for people that just wanna play some PvP super casually and earn the season rewards.

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"The way you like", as in being free to say whatever you feel like? Nah I dont think so.

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Obviously these changes will bring metas

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All; classes are equally balanced. Metas are not needed, metas in fact are a DIRECT antithesis of "playing how you like".

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it will require more job balancing and resources from the devs, some people that want to play certain jobs might find it harder than before to do so depending on the meta

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"XXX job is OP in pvp devs plz nerf" No. The last thing we need is WOW style pvp whining.

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etc but it will definitely make the competitive PvP much better in general

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How is job balancing anything to do with chat?
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I know PvP doesn't really matter in FF14 and the playerbase are not into competitive content against other players but I had to let these thoughts out as a person who used to love this type of content and basically played MMOs to PvP back in the days.

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Thats nice.

FF 14 isnt pvp based, isnt a pvp game, the chat macros are there to prevent toxicity as well the kind of foaming at the mouth., rabid rage screams we see elsewhere, especially when people lose.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

From personal experience in the past PvP systems, you'd need to ban quite a lot of people, and they'd still keep coming. That wouldn't work, not on PvP. There's something about PvP games in general that frustrate people more than PvE-type games do.

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PVPers by definition are, to quote a GM, "hyperaggressive foul mouthed prima donnas that expect to win all the time"

This thread just reminded me why playing League of Legends is so depressing ^^;

my only wish for 'casual pvp' queue is the ability to just queue in with friends and have fun.

Ranked i perfectly understand why.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

FF 14 isnt a pvp game, and if you cant do pvp and not be toxic thats a YOU problem.
"The way you like", as in being free to say whatever you feel like? Nah I dont think so.
All; classes are equally balanced. Metas are not needed, metas in fact are a DIRECT antithesis of "playing how you like".
"XXX job is OP in pvp devs plz nerf" No. The last thing we need is WOW style pvp whining

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That was a strange read and extremely surface level; perhaps because it came off as if you were trying to shut down their ideas rather than have a conversation where you offer insight and suggestions. I look at your post, I look back at OP's and I get the impression you failed to parse the text.
Especially the comments about it not being a PVP game, not related to chat and especially the way you quoted "way you like". There's no real depth or substance besides you outright disagreeing and you made it into a comment about what people would say rather than understanding it's about the other changes mentioned.

While I balked when I saw the word "meta" and had post traumatic flashbacks to what I try and call better times so I can sleep, the way you wrote that comes off as if you don't understand what a meta is in a game or really play PVP games where metas can form.

You say "metas are not needed" but they exist in some form and they always will. OP's suggestion of role limits similar to how other games have done it does lock down a meta but even in the free for all we have there is a slight capacity for a meta to dominate and exist. The only thing stopping you from seeing a hard meta right now is that players can't queue as groups outside of custom games and there's no voice chat.
If you can pick who goes into each team or be able to drill it down to say 1 healer, 3 DPS and 1 tank then like OP said "these changes will bring metas".

Once you've got a high level community playing against each other regularly then you start to see metas form and dominate, there's likely a soft meta in the top ranks of CC already where some jobs perform better than other jobs and in some situations.
If one day they decide to buff a job like BRD in PVP along with a couple others that can synergise and stack LB's then you'd see that soft meta start to form and if there was a community of teams scrimming CC you'd see that meta even without the role/team composition limits OP had suggested.

As for the last point you made about balance whining: That sort of thing happens in every PVP game and it already happens in XIV. I
DK if WoW is particularly famous for balance whining but it's here already and while OP's suggestions of allowing parties to be formed, role limits and the like would increase the likeliness of said whining becoming more prevalent amongst players.
I get the feeling that would go over your head since you focused so acutely on the first thing they said and seemingly misinterpreted the rest of the post completely following it up with another post where people who play PVP are slandered in a divisive manner.

We're not in syrcus, so please don't play the part.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I say this as I'm probably on my 5th straight loss. lol

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https://i.imgur.com/phU1aEY.gif

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

my only wish for 'casual pvp' queue is the ability to just queue in with friends and have fun.

Ranked i perfectly understand why.

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I feel like it would make casual too unfun for solo que people like me if every match was against a coordinated premade.

For the posibility of coordinating other team members it would be nice to have a chat available but from my personal experience of other PvP games and even Frontline here it is just better to not have it. In a PvP a lot of people are MUCH more toxic and they are very generous with sharing their frustration.

I understand why it shouldn't be a thing.
Though it'd probably help if they some more complex Quick Chats<as somethings that tend to get the new players, is whether the team will charge in, or hold a line..,>

So some complexity in a couple of QuickChats can help.[if anything, it would lead to level heads to blame the tactic and not so much the players.]

somewhat off topic. they need to adjust matchmaking, just make it so FL act as Blocklists in Ranked.(had to report someone yesterday for hiding under the spawn area in Clocktown doing sweeping emotes, with a 0K/0D/0A score at the end.) had I not spotted them, I wouldn't have known they intentionally threw.
<would at least force some who try to game the queue to do on their own merits>
[and even expand PVP to region to counteract the inevitable queue increase it'll cause] <on a different note, too many players doing emotes when they've given up in Ranked, just have the emotes disable when the 30s loading/setting the stage is done>

TLDR:
no need for chat, but we need a handful of complex chats that gives a party a general idea of what the strategy is.<if done right, mix and match to create a complex one>

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

With everything I've seen, it's probably best that we can't use regular chat.

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Yeah, you can tell the people who were not here when PvP had regular chat in 2016. Toxicity was off-the-rails. But it's also so they have to moderate it as much too. It was easy to just report people non-stop.

You don't have time to be spending time real keyboard chatting in CC anyway, unless you're bad.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I feel like it would make casual too unfun for solo que people like me if every match was against a coordinated premade.

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This, you guys don't know what happened on premade Frontline and Rival Wings huh? Just because you want to queue with friend doesn't make the match suddenly fun at all, you just ruined those solo queue's mood.

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DK if WoW is particularly famous for balance whining

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Loud enough to deafen a 747 at full thrust. Blizzard is also fond of catering to their childish demands, as it appearsthey havent gotten into modern gaming in THIS area either, their "pvp nerfs" have been infamous for literally destroying PVE gameplay,,,example warlocks had a spell called Rain of Fire, we learned that said spell was now CRIPPLED by 50%...why?

"ROF is too OP in wurld pee vee pee plz nerf".

In short you walked in to find your class or job gutted because some whiny pvper couldnt stand losing.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

https://i.imgur.com/phU1aEY.gif

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Oh, I have. I can assure you. :p I just needed to vent, I guess. We all do that every now and then. I've been doing so much CC. Realistically, I should stop, but a bigger part of me says "NOPE! Not until you're done."

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Originally Posted by technole

Yeah, you can tell the people who were not here when PvP had regular chat in 2016. Toxicity was off-the-rails. But it's also so they have to moderate it as much too. It was easy to just report people non-stop.

You don't have time to be spending time real keyboard chatting in CC anyway, unless you're bad.

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Yep, exactly. Hopefully those who've been around a while can remember this. And yeah, CC doesn't allow for much down time. Honestly, those quick chat buttons are great for that.

Meta is: Play the way we tell you to.
Meta is: This class is bad because we say so.
Meta is: play this this or this or we kick you.
Meta is: the death of originality, fun, realtime strategy.

In FF 14, every class, every job brings unique talents and abilities to the table. You bring the player, not the class.

Vel's Rules, book one page five. "There are times to take the book, and throw it out the window"

Wouldn't a separate ladder for ranked premade groups solve this. Like in order to even que you need a full premade party, this way you could have an actual party chat. It doesn't to be toxic, why can't a person just meme with people they know. Our current ranked ladder could just stay solo. Everyone gets a ride at the theme park they enjoy.

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this way you could have an actual party chat.

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We did. It was abused heavily, which is now we dont have free chat anymore.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

We did. It was abused heavily, which is now we dont have free chat anymore.

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Taken out of context. I also said, " in order to even que you need a full premade party," If they happen to allow a party finder for this, thats why there is a kick and report button.

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Originally Posted by Gugnir

Wouldn't a separate ladder for ranked premade groups solve this. Like in order to even que you need a full premade party, this way you could have an actual party chat. It doesn't to be toxic, why can't a person just meme with people they know. Our current ranked ladder could just stay solo. Everyone gets a ride at the theme park they enjoy.

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dont add ranked matches for premade party, cause it will bring RMT win trading. pre made party should just stay in casual matches but will have less rewards (like 800 for winning, 600 for losing)

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Originally Posted by kevin_satron

dont add ranked matches for premade party, cause it will bring RMT win trading. pre made party should just stay in casual matches but will have less rewards (like 800 for winning, 600 for losing)

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Easy fix with an amendment to the tos. "Any accounts determined to have participated in win trading may be stripped of their current rank, their leaderboard position, and their rank" etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Gugnir

Wouldn't a separate ladder for ranked premade groups solve this. Like in order to even que you need a full premade party, this way you could have an actual party chat. It doesn't to be toxic, why can't a person just meme with people they know. Our current ranked ladder could just stay solo. Everyone gets a ride at the theme park they enjoy.

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While the game doesn't have a ladder or quick match function for premades I believe you can queue into a custom game and the description says there's spectator slots. Modes that require full teams are usually pretty slow to match up so the ideal way to do this would be finding a bunch of people who all wanna play together and just going for it. The in game way to find it would be through party finder (can't verify the options while game's down atm) or lodestone.
When you have everyone, sadly there's still no match or party chat for them so- "third party tools" time :rolleyes:
Discord or other VOIP/group chat software's probably the best for real time fun with others, sad but true. It's probably better on the community finding & matchmaking aspect too.

Finding matches for 5v5 & 6v6 stuff blindly off of a matchmaker is always a challenging thing. It sounds amazing as a concept for those few who are motivated and no doubt those games would be fun too. A shame but there are still some options out there to get your 5v5's on :D

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Originally Posted by anw

While the game doesn't have a ladder or quick match function for premades I believe you can queue into a custom game and the description says there's spectator slots. Modes that require full teams are usually pretty slow to match up so the ideal way to do this would be finding a bunch of people who all wanna play together and just going for it. The in game way to find it would be through party finder (can't verify the options while game's down atm) or lodestone.
When you have everyone, sadly there's still no match or party chat for them so- "third party tools" time :rolleyes:
Discord or other VOIP/group chat software's probably the best for real time fun with others, sad but true. It's probably better on the community finding & matchmaking aspect too.

Finding matches for 5v5 & 6v6 stuff blindly off of a matchmaker is always a challenging thing. It sounds amazing as a concept for those few who are motivated and no doubt those games would be fun too. A shame but there are still some options out there to get your 5v5's on :D

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I agree, and while FFXIV is a PVE focused mmorpg there really shouldn't be a reason why it can't have a competitive PVP side of premade teams who are focused on elevating their PVP experience. I know for one there are people in my savage static I would be pretty happy to play with, win or lose. It would also be great teamwork building. I'm sure there are others who share the same sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Gugnir

I agree, and while FFXIV is a PVE focused mmorpg there really shouldn't be a reason why it can't have a competitive PVP side of premade teams who are focused on elevating their PVP experience. I know for one there are people in my savage static I would be pretty happy to play with, win or lose. It would also be great teamwork building. I'm sure there are others who share the same sentiment.

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I did a quick google search to see if there was some discord CC servers or a big PVP server and it would seem there's at least one with 13k~ members and 300 or so online atm. Their twitter page shows they're hosting little CC premade tournaments and stuff which seems pretty neat. Can't really verify much more on if they do have a ragtag group of active CC PVPers ready to face off because their server requires phone verification and I can't see inside but might be worth a look into if you and your friends are interested.
Might wanna try PF too for some casual 5v5's when the game's back up, see if it's possible to make a PUG in game, you might attract some chill people too. gl

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

This, you guys don't know what happened on premade Frontline and Rival Wings huh? Just because you want to queue with friend doesn't make the match suddenly fun at all, you just ruined those solo queue's mood.

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Which is why they need to add an option for party queue. People already go in as a group by timing it and it does ruin the randomness since people do throw if they're put on the enemy team in a subtle way.
Seen this happen in the first season and second as well just before 6.3 as well, by no means it isn't gonna eliminate those people in casual queue but, it will reduce the numbers.

I say this after seeing many of the same faces in there that magically start playing badly when they're separate from other faces lol