The Garlean Empire vs Omega

Seeing as how the Garlean Empire was able to kill Midgardsormr, do you think they could have killed Omega?

Omega was made out to be an extreme threat, but it could not defeat Midgardsormr. And while it did cost them one of their best ships at the time to kill the great dragon, the Garlean empire has since built more powerful flagships.

Midgardsormr did fight in a rather...suicidal fashion I will admit. Were dragons always intelligent or in 1.0 were they supposed to just be beasts? That would explain Midgardsormr's battle tactics during the battle of Silver Tear Lake.

I'm only replying to say Cleretic dun do it. Don't take the bait. Save your sanity, kupo.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I'm only replying to say Cleretic dun do it. Don't take the bait. Save your sanity, kupo.

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Is there some fear of people just theorycrafting/debating topics on this forum? Are you and Cleretic the arbiters is what allowed to be discussed?

Cleretic is amusing is their MY CANON IS ONLY CANON but c'mon. Let's have some fun discussions.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Is there some fear of people just theorycrafting/debating topics on this forum? Are you and Cleretic the arbiters is what allowed to be discussed?

Cleretic is amusing is their MY CANON IS ONLY CANON but c'mon. Let's have some fun discussions.

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No, we aren't. It's just your OP is so full of holes and easily refuted that it comes off as another attempt to troll.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

No, we aren't. It's just your OP is so full of holes and easily refuted that it comes off as another attempt to troll.

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It's a thread made by Necrotica, it's always an attempt to troll.

I could make more legitimate arguments, but I won't, because even if they're not trolling they come at these subjects from such a meaningless, antagonistic perspective that it's not worth participating in, it's only an argument made for the sake of arguing. Hell, you can tell by the actual OP; their actual post isn't even related to the thread title, it's just taking shots at Midgardsormr.

Assuming you want actual discussion: I mean... they tried to control it, and we had a whole raid series based on it. I would assume though, that Middy fought Omega, they hurt each other pretty badly, but that's where it stopped. After that, Middy fled with his eggs and washed his theoretical hands of it until the whole Omegascape thing.

But since one of the Empire's greatest minds couldn't control it, I doubt they could have actually done anything to it. They barely had control over Ultima and that was only because they had the Ascian Whisperer in their ear (who still betrayed them to have his evil laugh and our most meme'd line from Praetorium) so...

I think the only reason Omega didn't wipe the floor with...basically everyone was because it was testing us in order to improve itself, not simply fighting for the sake of fighting. Its primary directive was to defeat Midgarsormr (Or in absence of that, entities similar to him like Bahamut or Shinryu), and the secondary was evolve.

It deliberately adopts "illogical" and "inefficient" qualities/behaviors in the final battle as Omega M/F out of a desire to try understand what makes us tick...so I'm curious to see what comes of that in the ultimate with the implication it does somehow grasp that "heart" is the quality it was missing.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I think the only reason Omega didn't wipe the floor with...basically everyone was because it was testing us in order to improve itself, not simply fighting for the sake of fighting. Its primary directive was to defeat Midgarsormr (Or in absence of that, entities similar to him like Bahamut or Shinryu), and the secondary was evolve.

It deliberately adopts "illogical" and "inefficient" qualities/behaviors in the final battle as Omega M/F out of a desire to try understand what makes us tick...so I'm curious to see what comes of that in the ultimate with the implication it does somehow grasp that "heart" is the quality it was missing.

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Yeah, there's a lot of reasons why this hypothetical Death Battle scenario in the OP is totally unworkable, but this is kinda the gist of it; we don't actually know what a full-power, no-stops fight-to-the-death Omega would do. We only fought it in its own weird psuedospace, and it was only doing weird testing.

Even the 'Omega lost to Midgardsormr' data point is worthless, because we don't even know how how their fight went. We can speculate as to the reason Omega lost (my personal angle is 'Omega's O11 hitbox wouldn't be able to avoid any of the O10 attack patterns'), but we can't just assume that fact to universally lead to 'Midgardsormr beats Omega' or any followup extensions of that assumption. Not only do we not know the victory conditions or end state beyond the fact they both survived, there's also no chance at all that it was some complete vacuum 1v1, no items on Final Destination; there was most likely other stuff going on, including terrain and reinforcements. For all we know Midgardsormr got in a lucky shot and escaped, or Omega got outnumbered. We saw part of the conflict between the Dragonstar and Omicrons in the Stigma Dreamscape, we can be pretty confident from seeing that that the fight wasn't just two lone agents.

Looking at all the firepower that the Garleans have, I think a fully kitted out Legion or two could potentially take Omega out.

Part of what stopped Midgardsormr was the sheer volume of fire they could put out. Omega showed incredible ability to dodge incoming fire when facing Shinriyu, but that was still a stale mate against a single target. Taking fire from all directions from 100s of targets could potentially overwhelm its ability to calculate evasive maneuvers. It could not even fully evade a group of 8 adventures on foot.

Fun fact: Midgardsormr was not, in fact, killed by the Garleans.

More fun facts: the means by which a dragon actually is destroyed is rather ambiguous and may or may not involve their eyes, ability to possess others, etc.

They are not entirely unlike the Ascians in certain aspects.

Or did you not play Heavansward?

I don't think the Garleans can claim to have defeated Midgardsormr unless it was a deliberate plan to use their flagship and all its crew as bait to make the dragon attack it and bring the whole thing down in a fiery explosion, and hope that the dragon didn't survive the blast. And that sounds like a rather poor plan on several levels.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't think the Garleans can claim to have defeated Midgardsormr unless it was a deliberate plan to use their flagship and all its crew as bait to make the dragon attack it and bring the whole thing down in a fiery explosion, and hope that the dragon didn't survive the blast. And that sounds like a rather poor plan on several levels.

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The cinematic of the Battle of Silvertear Skies, and Gaius van Baelsar's reflection subsequent to the battle, confirm that it was definitely not their intention - they hadn't counted on having to engage Dragons in battle and were not aware of Midgardsormr and his role as guardian of Silvertear:
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It has been fifteen years, but the bitter taste of defeat lingers still... Fifteen years since the imperial fleet set course for Mor Dhona, led by the Agrius, mightiest of all vessels. Silvertear Lake lay ripe for the taking, and all of Eorzea would soon be ours - or so we believed. But an innumerable host of dragons met us that day, at the heart of which flew the great Midgardsormr. Though we succeeded in slaying that lord among wyrms, the dread serpent's defeat was bought at too high a price. Our invincible flagship was lost, and all hope of victory with her. So ended our glorious conquest.

And the sequence of events don't support Midgardsormr having a death wish either - he paused after he dragged the Agrius down, let out a roar of victory, but was then 'killed' by the explosion caused by the ceruleum tanks of the Agrius exploding, something Midgardsormr likely couldn't have predicted would happen.

1 Billion lions vs Omega

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Fun fact: Midgardsormr was not, in fact, killed by the Garleans.

More fun facts: the means by which a dragon actually is destroyed is rather ambiguous and may or may not involve their eyes, ability to possess others, etc.

They are not entirely unlike the Ascians in certain aspects.

Or did you not play Heavansward?

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We kill a large number of dragons in this game. And some of the smaller ones go down real easy. The first brood are definately far beyond the others in power and I am not entirely sure if it is an age thing or if they just suffer some kind of genetic decay as the bloodlines get more removed from whatever super ancestor Midgardsormr came from. At no point is it ever brought up that we could use the eyes of lesser dragons as any kind of aether source.

The Ascians seem more like free form spirits that can possess at will. At one point it was mentioned they use dark crystals to accomplish this but not sure that is canon anymore since we never seem to have to destroy those crystals since one scene in ARR with a black masker.

The (let's call them 'True') Dragons eyes seem to act as a phylactery of sorts. The dragon can operate without them so long as they are not destroyed. They seem to need physical contact to draw on them for power. Others can use them if they have physical control of them, but the True Dragon still maintains influence over them to a limited degree.

Nydhoggs body was destroyed and after that Hraesvalgr referred to what came after as a shade. Implying it was not really his brother. But then when we expel him from Estiniens body we see his soul ascend to the heavens. While his eyes are still both very much still intact.

So you can kill a dragon while keeping its eyes intact which kinda ruins the phylactery analogy.

To bring this back to Midgardsomr, no one ever says a thing about using his eyes for power which seems like a bit of an oversight since the primal those things could summon would make Shinryu look like good king moogle mog. This is either because the Ascians feared him even in his Odin sleep mode or it is possible his power has nothing to do with his eyes and that is strictly a thing for his direct children.

Dragons are all over the place with how they work. Need to get a sharlayan to break them down into subspecies.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

To bring this back to Midgardsomr, no one ever says a thing about using his eyes for power which seems like a bit of an oversight since the primal those things could summon would make Shinryu look like good king moogle mog. This is either because the Ascians feared him even in his Odin sleep mode or it is possible his power has nothing to do with his eyes and that is strictly a thing for his direct children.

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Possible - I mean, Midgardsomr is a 'pure' Dragonstar Dragon whereas the first brood all hatched on Eorzea. Maybe that had some influence on matters?

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

We kill a large number of dragons in this game. And some of the smaller ones go down real easy. The first brood are definately far beyond the others in power and I am not entirely sure if it is an age thing or if they just suffer some kind of genetic decay as the bloodlines get more removed from whatever super ancestor Midgardsormr came from. At no point is it ever brought up that we could use the eyes of lesser dragons as any kind of aether source.

The Ascians seem more like free form spirits that can possess at will. At one point it was mentioned they use dark crystals to accomplish this but not sure that is canon anymore since we never seem to have to destroy those crystals since one scene in ARR with a black masker.

The (let's call them 'True') Dragons eyes seem to act as a phylactery of sorts. The dragon can operate without them so long as they are not destroyed. They seem to need physical contact to draw on them for power. Others can use them if they have physical control of them, but the True Dragon still maintains influence over them to a limited degree.

Nydhoggs body was destroyed and after that Hraesvalgr referred to what came after as a shade. Implying it was not really his brother. But then when we expel him from Estiniens body we see his soul ascend to the heavens. While his eyes are still both very much still intact.

So you can kill a dragon while keeping its eyes intact which kinda ruins the phylactery analogy.

To bring this back to Midgardsomr, no one ever says a thing about using his eyes for power which seems like a bit of an oversight since the primal those things could summon would make Shinryu look like good king moogle mog. This is either because the Ascians feared him even in his Odin sleep mode or it is possible his power has nothing to do with his eyes and that is strictly a thing for his direct children.

Dragons are all over the place with how they work. Need to get a sharlayan to break them down into subspecies.

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They aren't all over the place you just gotta go through t again. Age is what determines how strong a dragon is, they keep getting stronger the longer they are alive. They can be killed.

If you've ever played ff10 Nidhogg is basically an unsent at that point. He died at the Arey and it's his lingering rage that took physical form after possessing Estinien. That's why they call it a shade.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

1 Billion lions vs Omega

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My money's on Omega, because to my knowledge most lions can't fly.

It's not gonna be visually engaging or all that exciting, but Omega's an 'if it works, it works' kinda fellow.

If we are talking about E12S lions, then there would be no way to resolve the mechanic and it would result in Omega being raidwiped. Omega would probably prefer to just skip them altogether.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Nydhoggs body was destroyed and after that Hraesvalgr referred to what came after as a shade. Implying it was not really his brother. But then when we expel him from Estiniens body we see his soul ascend to the heavens. While his eyes are still both very much still intact.

So you can kill a dragon while keeping its eyes intact which kinda ruins the phylactery analogy..

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Regardless of how or what is destroyed, the dragon itself is still alive to some degree, or in some cases (like Midgard) a deep and possibly indefinite hibernation. (give or take Omega storyline)



Nidhogg specifically could exist without his eyes (even using his brother's) to live.

Even with his body and the eyes completely destroyed, there is a certain amount taint remaining in Estenien that threatens to take control.

If anything, elder/more powerful dragons are almost a viral/lycanthropic creature able to exert a certain amount of control/power simply by having the blood mixed in another creature. And, should the host be of a certain strength it seems they can control the dragon's power.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

My money's on Omega, because to my knowledge most lions can't fly.

It's not gonna be visually engaging or all that exciting, but Omega's an 'if it works, it works' kinda fellow.

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the PLD lions can fly or is that WoL magic?

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Even with his body and the eyes completely destroyed, there is a certain amount taint remaining in Estenien that threatens to take control.

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Is this stated in the game anywhere?

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Originally Posted by kaynide

If anything, elder/more powerful dragons are almost a viral/lycanthropic creature able to exert a certain amount of control/power simply by having the blood mixed in another creature. And, should the host be of a certain strength it seems they can control the dragon's power.

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Honestly, that seems to be the case with dragons in general, when you think about. An asexually reproducing alien species, whose blood can turn others into them when flesh is consumed, whose powerful individuals can compel others of its species and those close in nature (scalekin) through song. Change a few details and you've got a pretty compelling sci-fi viral alien species like the zerg or tyranids or xenomorphs of something.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

the PLD lions can fly or is that WoL magic?

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Those aren't most lions, and Omega's got the firepower to down the few that are like that pretty easily.

Honestly the real threat is how many of them are those lion-like Sin Eaters Vauthry had. Those can fly AND take a good couple hits, if there's enough of them Omega might break a sweat.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Is this stated in the game anywhere?

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I am not sure if this is outright stated but we do get hints that Nidhogg is still in a way with Estinien. (Not sure about the "threatens to take control part")The way he talked with Tiamat. How he was able to see the souls of the death dragons on Ultima (just like the WoL), stuff like that. Of course you also have his attacks that are fulled by Nidhogg too.

I guess this could go many ways but it does feel like at least a bit of Nidhogg stayed behind. Maybe part of his aether.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I am not sure if this is outright stated but we do get hints that Nidhogg is still in a way with Estinien. (Not sure about the "threatens to take control part")The way he talked with Tiamat. How he was able to see the souls of the death dragons on Ultima (just like the WoL), stuff like that. Of course you also have his attacks that are fulled by Nidhogg too.

I guess this could go many ways but it does feel like at least a bit of Nidhogg stayed behind. Maybe part of his aether.

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I see how that could be attributed to being Nidhogg still. I just figured he had been semi dragon aspected/fused/genetic rewrite type thing but it was just general draconic nature not specifically tied to Nidhogg. Like how some of a person's traits are tied specifically to their parents but others are just a natural part of being human.

Nidhogg made him more dragon like, maybe not specifically more Nidhogg like. Also whenever he 'talks' to Nidhogg I think he is talking to his weapon still coated in the blood.

Just exactly how does Nidhogg's taint work, and what all did Estinien "inherit" from Nidhogg? Judging from how he has pretty much calmed down after the whole Final Steps of Faith, I'm wondering if the part of Nidhogg that Estinien absorbed was what was left of his actual "nicer" self, the self from before Ratataskr's death. My evidence for this would be Estinien's actions whenever dragons are involved. Estinien is fairly protective of Vrtra, almost like a sibling would be. Also when he calls out the dragon in Ultima Thule on their actions, he gets aggressive with a tone shift in his voice, almost feeling like somebody else is doing the talking, trying to remind the dragon of what they are.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Just exactly how does Nidhogg's taint work, and what all did Estinien "inherit" from Nidhogg? Judging from how he has pretty much calmed down after the whole Final Steps of Faith, I'm wondering if the part of Nidhogg that Estinien absorbed was what was left of his actual "nicer" self, the self from before Ratataskr's death. My evidence for this would be Estinien's actions whenever dragons are involved. Estinien is fairly protective of Vrtra, almost like a sibling would be. Also when he calls out the dragon in Ultima Thule on their actions, he gets aggressive with a tone shift in his voice, almost feeling like somebody else is doing the talking, trying to remind the dragon of what they are.

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It seems that Nidhogg left a part of his personality inside Estinien, it also comes out when Estinien downright taunts Tiamat into moving on. It's not an actual merging of personalities, but sometimes it feels like Estinien has... not sure if I'm explaining myself right, but basically got so used to thinking like Nidhogg that he now exists as a "shoulder angel/devil" of sorts to him. Like a little "What Would Nidhogg Do?" voice on the back of his head.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Just exactly how does Nidhogg's taint work, and what all did Estinien "inherit" from Nidhogg? Judging from how he has pretty much calmed down after the whole Final Steps of Faith, I'm wondering if the part of Nidhogg that Estinien absorbed was what was left of his actual "nicer" self, the self from before Ratataskr's death. My evidence for this would be Estinien's actions whenever dragons are involved. Estinien is fairly protective of Vrtra, almost like a sibling would be. Also when he calls out the dragon in Ultima Thule on their actions, he gets aggressive with a tone shift in his voice, almost feeling like somebody else is doing the talking, trying to remind the dragon of what they are.

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I took it as Estinien gaining a sort of respect and admiration for the dragons through his interactions with Hraesvelgr and Ysayle and the fact that everything he thought he knew about them was predicated on a lie.

Those are pretty good ways of looking at it.

I'm in the a smidge of ol Niddy is still in there party. Estinien got possessed by him twice and during one of those times transformed. You're going to tell me no aetherical shenanigans happened? All this after we know that just their blood can alter a person's aether.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I'm in the a smidge of ol Niddy is still in there party. Estinien got possessed by him twice and during one of those times transformed. You're going to tell me no aetherical shenanigans happened? All this after we know that just their blood can alter a person's aether.

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Estinien being diet tempered into being nice to dragons is kinda screwed up. But I could totally believe that is what happened.

I mean when you go down the isn't Kain Highwind from IV but totally is road you might as well finish and stick the landing.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

Estinien being diet tempered into being nice to dragons is kinda screwed up. But I could totally believe that is what happened.

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Or it could be, you know, character development based on the death of Ysale, Ishgard's recently unburied peaceful history with dragons and how their holy crusade was a shame, seeing how his hatred of dragons paralleled Nidhogg's rage and seeing saw how it consumed the great wyrm, the idealism of Alphinaud and being saved by the wills of Ysale and Haurchefant, and, you know the entirety of the events of Heavensward.

In what world would him being "tempered" make more sense than that? Hell, we know how tempering works and it doesn't work like that. Tempering requires the alignment toward a particular aetherial aspect and the suffusion of memories of serving the source of the tempering. If he were tempered by Nidhogg he'd be violent against humans, not nice towards dragons.

Hell, Esteinien was already influenced by Nidhogg, for far before any of that, no need for tempering, and he was not kind towards dragons. Remember the A Realm Reborn dragoon quests where his rage synchronized with the Nidhogg's eye? He's literally overcome by the will of Nidhogg and goes on to still be incredibly hostile towards dragons for the next expansion. The reason he doesn't go on to become hostile towards dragons once he becomes free of Nidhogg's shade is because he himself went through a whole ordeal. Whole ass character arc, even.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

Or it could be, you know, character development based on the death of Ysale, Ishgard's recently unburied peaceful history with dragons and how their holy crusade was a shame, seeing how his hatred of dragons paralleled Nidhogg's rage and seeing saw how it consumed the great wyrm, the idealism of Alphinaud and being saved by the wills of Ysale and Haurchefant, and, you know the entirety of the events of Heavensward.

In what world would him being "tempered" make more sense than that? Hell, we know how tempering works and it doesn't work like that. Tempering requires the alignment toward a particular aetherial aspect and the suffusion of memories of serving the source of the tempering. If he were tempered by Nidhogg he'd be violent against humans, not nice towards dragons.

Hell, Esteinien was already influenced by Nidhogg, for far before any of that, no need for tempering, and he was not kind towards dragons. Remember the A Realm Reborn dragoon quests where his rage synchronized with the Nidhogg's eye? He's literally overcome by the will of Nidhogg and goes on to still be incredibly hostile towards dragons for the next expansion. The reason he doesn't go on to become hostile towards dragons once he becomes free of Nidhogg's shade is because he himself went through a whole ordeal. Whole ass character arc, even.

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And that is fine too. Estinien being immune to the effects of Nidhoggs corruption is cool. Guy is a badass.

Getting conflicting arguments. Was Estinien influence by Nidhogg's aether/possession in a permanent manner or not?

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

And that is fine too. Estinien being immune to the effects of Nidhoggs corruption is cool. Guy is a badass.

Getting conflicting arguments. Was Estinien influence by Nidhogg's aether/possession in a permanent manner or not?

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No conflicting argument. He was not influenced permanently as far as we know or can tell, at least inasmuch as his personality is concerned. His rage was temporarily synchronized with Nidhogg's and he called upon him for more power in the A Realm Reborn job quests but managed to shake it off offscreen, and once possessed of both eyes of Nidhogg and covered in his aether-rich blood he was taken over by Nidhogg's lingering will but was freed from this by Alphinaud, the Warrior of Light, and the lingering wills of the Ysale and Haurchefant.

His changing attitude towards dragonkind is attributed to his experiences, rather than any aetheric influence. Anything else would be convolution of story and really isn't supported by the game's text.

Sorry I came off as angry or annoyed in the other post, I was in a particularly foul mood when reading those posts and drafting the response and almost immediately regretted my tone.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

No conflicting argument. He was not influenced permanently as far as we know or can tell, at least inasmuch as his personality is concerned. His rage was temporarily synchronized with Nidhogg's and he called upon him for more power in the A Realm Reborn job quests but managed to shake it off offscreen, and once possessed of both eyes of Nidhogg and covered in his aether-rich blood he was taken over by Nidhogg's lingering will but was freed from this by Alphinaud, the Warrior of Light, and the lingering wills of the Ysale and Haurchefant.

His changing attitude towards dragonkind is attributed to his experiences, rather than any aetheric influence. Anything else would be convolution of story and really isn't supported by the game's text.

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While there is no indication that he is tempered, his experience with Nidhogg has left a deeper mark on him than you seem to recognise here. There are a number of suggestions in various places that he has absorbed some aspects of Nidhogg's personality as a consequence of being merged with him, because he felt Nidhogg's emotions as his own during that time - but lucidly, it seems, and with the ability to decide what to do with those emotions.

He directly felt Nidhogg's rage and grief at Ratatoskr's death, and so he himself grieves for Ratatoskr at a personal intensity, and it is at least implied if not stated that he "thinks like a dragon" to some degree now - not because Nidhogg made him do it but because it was a natural outcome of being so deeply exposed to Nidhogg's soul.

I don't have references for in-game quotes, but the side story From Azure Ashes covers the core of it.

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For a time, Estinien’s soul had been merged with that of Nidhogg; the dread wyrm’s tumultuous storm of emotions comingling with his own. The rancor, the fury, the grief─he had felt it all. And the grief lingered even now. The gulf left behind by Ratatoskr’s passing was one he knew as well as any man or dragon.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

While there is no indication that he is tempered, his experience with Nidhogg has left a deeper mark on him than you seem to recognise here. There are a number of suggestions in various places that he has absorbed some aspects of Nidhogg's personality as a consequence of being merged with him, because he felt Nidhogg's emotions as his own during that time - but lucidly, it seems, and with the ability to decide what to do with those emotions.

He directly felt Nidhogg's rage and grief at Ratatoskr's death, and so he himself grieves for Ratatoskr at a personal intensity, and it is at least implied if not stated that he "thinks like a dragon" to some degree now - not because Nidhogg made him do it but because it was a natural outcome of being so deeply exposed to Nidhogg's soul.

I don't have references for in-game quotes, but the side story From Azure Ashes covers the core of it.

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Right, and I'd put that in with "experiences" rather than any "aetheric influence". The man hosted the angry shade of a great dragon for the better part of three patches (however long that is), he remembers those feelings as if they were his, because they were, for a while. And when you feel as deep as Nidhogg did, feelings they don't go away that quickly, if ever. The feelings "lingering" is normal, as normal as being possessed can be.

Basically he gained empathy for the plight of the dragons after being Nidhogged up for a while, rather than being mind controlled. His personality is intact.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

Right, and I'd put that in with "experiences" rather than any "aetheric influence". The man hosted the angry shade of a great dragon for the better part of three patches (however long that is), he remembers those feelings as if they were his, because they were, for a while. And when you feel as deep as Nidhogg did, feelings they don't go away that quickly, if ever. The feelings "lingering" is normal, as normal as being possessed can be.

Basically he gained empathy for the plight of the dragons after being Nidhogged up for a while, rather than being mind controlled. His personality is intact.

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Traumatic memory induced brainwashing then.