The Final Day needs to be ilevel synched

Title.

Ilvl of the average players in Duty Finder Trials these days is too high for this fight now. The Trial completes too fast, sometimes even before the Story Voiceovers in the second phase complete. The second phase is being entered with <15% health on the boss.

This is not enjoyable for new players doing it for the first time who enjoy the story. That fight was great and epic and a wonderful cap to the story when it released. Now it's so fast that you don't even get to hear the VO Lines or the best parts of the music in the second phase.

Sync it down to like 570-580. Min ilvl is 540, so thats more than enough headroom.

Welcome to every final story trial ever.

I agree and I could see this was going to be a problem the first time I did it actually.

But I agree that there should be item level syncs on everything. There just isn't and it makes old content less fun.

Even if the item level syncs don't happen until the expansion is over to preserve gear progression, once the expansion is over, gear progression isn't really a thing because everyone can just get the best tomestone gear with poetics.

Counter point but item level syncing on current expansion content sucks ass. No, I don't want to sync to 570 when running Dead Ends. Yes, trusts should just be used in all MSQ content for players that are really anal about catching every possible story moment. I've done this content enough times that I have the right to just burst through as fast as possible to get my tomestones, I really couldn't care otherwise (this is also why I item level cheese in alliance raids because I'll take a quick Crystal Tower over potentially spending an hour wiping in that one Nier raid).

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Originally Posted by Johners

(this is also why I item level cheese in alliance raids because I'll take a quick Crystal Tower over potentially spending an hour wiping in that one Nier raid).

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Disgusting creature.

Same for Thordan, Shinryu, and Hades. And the first two of each set of alliance raids. And the first two tiers of each set of normal raids. It wouldn't be some miracle fix (Thordan in particular has always been a joke), but it would help give the fights some bite back.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Same for Thordan, Shinryu, and Hades. And the first two of each set of alliance raids. And the first two tiers of each set of normal raids. It wouldn't be some miracle fix (Thordan in particular has always been a joke), but it would help give the fights some bite back.

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Do you want the nerf threads to come back? Remember when the bad players were screaming for Nidhogg to be nerfed? When they screamed for Shinryu to be nerfed? Emet-Selch remembers.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Do you want the nerf threads to come back? Remember when the bad players were screaming for Nidhogg to be nerfed? When they screamed for Shinryu to be nerfed? Emet-Selch remembers.

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It's either the nerf threads or the un-nerf threads. We're gonna get one or the other, so I might as well side with the one that at least gives me more fun playing.

Nah, it already always takes two attempts because some monkey forgets to LB.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Do you want the nerf threads to come back? Remember when the bad players were screaming for Nidhogg to be nerfed? When they screamed for Shinryu to be nerfed? Emet-Selch remembers.

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That is an oversimplification. If it was only the actual bad players, it would be one matter.

The trouble comes in when you realize that we're talking about roulette content, which means you have another class of players that's impacted: ones that are good enough to do the content on their own, but get exasperated anyway because they get paired with bad players too often in PUGs, and end up failing because of them. Even well above average players can be affected by this, depending on the particular content you're dumped into.

Remember that this isn't WoW where a relatively small number of hardcore players are usually enough to carry the whole rest of the group even if they barely know the first thing about video games. XIV is well known by this point for mechanics where most or all of the group have to be on the ball or it doesn't matter how good the best members are - the worst members assure you don't get the clear. In the past, that had been something that was mostly kept (outside of the "lost your tanks/healers" bugaboo) to Extreme Trials and Savage raids; the few exceptions (Lost City normal coming especially to mind) being almost universally dreaded instances to get in roulette.

At some point - especially starting around mid-late through Stormblood - this Battletoads-esque philosophy started to export itself to general DF content. (It might be harping some more, but it seems like this further validates how the culture shifts caused by Discord have been negatively impacting the less hardcore cohorts - Stormblood was around the time when the platform really began to take off to the point of standardization, and the sea change that occurred later on in that xpac is very manifest.) Now roulettes easily become miserable if you have a lot of content unlocked, to the point that even many good players dread getting the more difficult instances (it really not helping either that Trials and Normal Raids have several dozen different fights each if you've got everything unlocked, most of them years old, so even the better players have often forgotten the exact details of the less played ones).

Nerfing may lead to less satisfying fights, but at least it makes roulette far more bearable under these circumstances.

There's one time when on 2nd phase the Endsinger already has 5% HP before the song finished the chorus... So we decided to jump around till the chorus done lol :)

I'm confused as to why only Ultima Weapon has forced ilvl sync out of all the MSQ final bosses.

If anything, they should just have the ilvl sync to what the highest available for the respective patch was so it can be easier then on release, but not to the point of interfering with fight theatrics.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Do you want the nerf threads to come back? Remember when the bad players were screaming for Nidhogg to be nerfed? When they screamed for Shinryu to be nerfed? Emet-Selch remembers.

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Shinyu was nerfed. All these people asking for more content nerf are part of the reason why i DREAD doing trial roulettes. Keep that up and ill just spam experts.

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Shinyu was nerfed. All these people asking for more content nerf are part of the reason why i DREAD doing trial roulettes. Keep that up and ill just spam experts.

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No, he never got nerfed. The ilvl only caught up a few weeks after launch.

What I don't get is why they didn't healthgate the fight :T Just put the transition at 30%.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Disgusting creature.

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Why do you care? Alliance Raids are boring after the first few run throughs. I'd rather be in-and-out in 15-20 minutes by cheesing my way into a Crystal Tower than potentially spending 45-60 minutes in that final Nier raid. They're a story telling mechanism and the allure of the music etc just wears off if you're running them for the 100th time. At least in CT I know it's over fast.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

What I don't get is why they didn't healthgate the fight :T Just put the transition at 30%.

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That would be sensible on several fronts. It would make sure enough time is set aside for the important end of the fight, and cut short the dreary first half that feels like it goes for too long.

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Originally Posted by Amarande

Remember that this isn't WoW where a relatively small number of hardcore players are usually enough to carry the whole rest of the group even if they barely know the first thing about video games.

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That is exactly what happens in this game too. That is the entire concept of dungeons in this game. One good player carries the other 3. It was designed that way from the start, where they wanted dungeons to be easy but for the really good and well-geared players to be able to shine in them by wrecking enemies and knowing what to do.

Of course, although the hard content was optional, they did not know that there needed to be an easy version of all the hard content but started making one by Heavensward.

The mechanics of trials and raids are not hard at minimum item level. They are just more fun because you can actually die in them. But they are not so hard that the hardcore players who got matched into it wouldn't be able to carry them and rez, the way you described they do in WoW.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Do you want the nerf threads to come back? Remember when the bad players were screaming for Nidhogg to be nerfed? When they screamed for Shinryu to be nerfed? Emet-Selch remembers.

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remember when the OG steps of faith was in the game and it was omg it's to hard can't get to isgard. i remember they always nerf the hared story content so it can be finished

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Originally Posted by Johners

Why do you care? Alliance Raids are boring after the first few run throughs. I'd rather be in-and-out in 15-20 minutes by cheesing my way into a Crystal Tower than potentially spending 45-60 minutes in that final Nier raid. They're a story telling mechanism and the allure of the music etc just wears off if you're running them for the 100th time. At least in CT I know it's over fast.

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Vile specimine.

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Originally Posted by Latarma

remember when the OG steps of faith was in the game and it was omg it's to hard can't get to isgard. i remember they always nerf the hared story content so it can be finished

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I remember OG Steps of Faith, I beat it on the first day in in a 2nd instance with a bunch of randoms. IMO the only problem with that fight was that you couldn't just "reset" it like you could with things these days. If a full party wipe equaled a reset of it, people probably wouldn't have had as many issues with it.

I don't lose sleep over it. I just did it the other day to help a friend. I could see it being a little problematic for those that care about such things when 7/8 party members are i610+ and they are helping out a new player with the i560 job-specific gear. However, this isn't even current content. This isn't even current content. I'm surprised it isn't level sync'd. Doesn't seem like a hard thing to address. Maybe just set it to the classical gearset (i580) and call it a day.

Bring back Thornmarch (HM) one shotting under geared players.

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Originally Posted by Anienai

Bring back Thornmarch (HM) one shotting under geared players.

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Oh it does that now, it got reworked with the last patch and has actual mechanics now.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The mechanics of trials and raids are not hard at minimum item level. They are just more fun because you can actually die in them. But they are not so hard that the hardcore players who got matched into it wouldn't be able to carry them and rez, the way you described they do in WoW.

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That used to be the case, but it's getting spottier and spottier. The root cause is probably the fact that both DPS checks and stack markers (wasn't Nidhogg one of the first fights to elicit complaints on a mass scale, come to think of it? ...) are used more and more often even in story modes.

The trauma conga line is then fairly easy to retrace, and usually goes something like so (of course, Alphascape V3.0 is the poster child):

1. A mechanic that newbies and more casual players actually do often struggle with happens. People, especially later on in content's lifespan (when you tend to get such fights with at least one newbie and a few rouletters trying to recall the details) mess this mechanic up.

2. Now that some people are dead and some people have vulns, the stack marker goes out with greatly increased average damage per player, making it difficult or impossible to avoid further deaths.

3. Before Weakness (often a double dose for a player or two after the above) wears off, the add phase/DPS check goes out, and the raid wipes as the better players are not able (and may not mathematically be able) to cover for this (don't forget that in such cases, Weakness tends to be further compounded by the fact that many classes are also rotationally ruined for a significant period of time after dying due to often having had their job gauge wiped out and their gauge-generating abilities still on CD).

There's also a few glaring outliers here like the 5.3 trial and its (hopefully remaining unique) QTE (which one should note, is the only case of a mandatory 8/8 QTE in any content, INCLUDING hardmodes, thank the Twelve. I'm trying to remember, did it also have the same bugaboo as In From the Cold where you have to not only mash, but mash without hitting anything that's bound to something? I remember it used to just be "don't hit Enter" but now for some reason it's become a lot more restrictive what keys you can mash).

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Originally Posted by Amarande

That used to be the case, but it's getting spottier and spottier. The root cause is probably the fact that both DPS checks and stack markers (wasn't Nidhogg one of the first fights to elicit complaints on a mass scale, come to think of it? ...) are used more and more often even in story modes.

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Nidhogg didn't elicit complaints on a mass scale as far as I know. There was usually a wipe the first time, because tanks didn't tank properly or they didn't know they needed to all stack for the stack marker. This is a lot better now that they teach stack markers in ARR, but battle system changes have made it easier too.

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The trauma conga line is then fairly easy to retrace, and usually goes something like so (of course, Alphascape V3.0 is the poster child):

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Now there were complaints about Alphascape V3.0 to the point that the developers had to have a meeting where they decided to always name casts clearly such as "Left/Right". Every cast like it since then has been Left/Right.

The steps you described would be resolved by trying again and everyone learning from their mistakes, which is intended. It's OK to take more than 1 pull to kill it. It usually wouldn't take very many. They nerf old trials with a buff called The Echo when you die which significantly increases your damage, HP and heal potency.

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There's also a few glaring outliers here like the 5.3 trial

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The trials do get more demanding for a casual player just doing the story, because they expect they are slightly competent at the game by then. But even that trial grants The Echo and people overlap the flare and stack all the time without a problem. All they need to do is the QTE and The Echo will pull them through eventually. The QTE literally say to press a button in the middle of the screen. It couldn't be more clear.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Nidhogg didn't elicit complaints on a mass scale as far as I know. There was usually a wipe the first time, because tanks didn't tank properly or they didn't know they needed to all stack for the stack marker. This is a lot better now that they teach stack markers in ARR, but battle system changes have made it easier too.

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It was mostly concentrated in a single thread. Or at least, that's the only one I can find via the search function.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It was mostly concentrated in a single thread. Or at least, that's the only one I can find via the search function.

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Woah, some posts read like present-day. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Vile specimine.

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Cope, will continue to cheese

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Welcome to every final story trial ever.

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That's fine. ilv sync the other ones too.

The difference in Final Days is that its phase 2 takes time to trigger, leaving with so little health because you can still damage even after the tank LB. The idea that phase 2 is basically a personal enrage timer is fun but I think the phase change was badly done...
Thordan forces you to experience its knights of the rounds including the ultimate attack and after that it is done. Shinryu gives enough time for you to experience the phase 2 music and at same time gives you a way to kill him quicker thanks to the tail being able to be targeted when it attacks, you can easily enjoy it .
Hades has a checkpoint and honestly do not have much problem everytime I end up fighting it in trials, not too fast and not too slow.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Woah, some posts read like present-day. The more things change, the more they stay the same!

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Different time, same arguments.

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Originally Posted by Johners

Cope, will continue to cheese

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Reprehensible vermin. Lose your hairline elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Reprehensible vermin. Lose your hairline elsewhere.

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I appreciate the concern about my hairline but I have a full, luscious head of hair. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some guaranteed Crystal Tower runs to do via alliance raid roulette before I get back to Draognflight.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Reprehensible vermin. Lose your hairline elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Johners

I appreciate the concern about my hairline but I have a full, luscious head of hair. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some guaranteed Crystal Tower runs to do via alliance raid roulette before I get back to Draognflight.

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You guys should get a room. :p

I agree with you, and want that for a lot of older content as well. Its a real different experience vs cutting through half of it due to ilvl.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

You guys should get a room. :p

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Maybe they can brush each other’s hair

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Reprehensible vermin. Lose your hairline elsewhere.

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This games community really is nice, despite people like you.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

This games community really is nice, despite people like you.

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There's nothing nice about forcing 23 other people to do CT.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Maybe they can brush each other’s hair

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So true.