Criterion savage, only for i625-i630?

I was wondering, if the savage version of variant dungeon will be specifically designed for those at ilvl625+? Or maybe even only for those at ilvl 630?

610 will be the likely ilvl just because there are people that aren't into savage tier that would find a light party easier to deal with.

I hope not? if that were to happen Criterion would become the only content where you'd actually have to do savage or be weeks ahead in tomestone gear to run it. I don't think the developers want to set up that pattern.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

610 will be the likely ilvl just because there are people that aren't into savage tier that would find a light party easier to deal with.

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From what I've seen in the LL, criterion EX is 610 min ilvl

Yeah savage criterion will be for the most part i610. It won’t be i625-i630. I’m excited for it and can’t wait to try it. Just hope it doesn’t come out on a day I have work lol.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Yeah savage criterion will be for the most part i610. It won’t be i625-i630. I’m excited for it and can’t wait to try it. Just hope it doesn’t come out on a day I have work lol.

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Like I said, criterion EX is already i610 min ilvl so I don't think criterion savage will be i610

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Like I said, criterion EX is already i610 min ilvl so I don't think criterion savage will be i610

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I understand why you might think that, but a difference in difficulty doesn't always have to mean a higher ilvl is required. Savage will have more in the way of challenges for people to overcome. The following is from the last Live Letter

Groups joining Another Sil’dihn Subterrane with less than 4 members will be matched together. In exchange for the usual methods of resurrection being unavailable, each member will be able to use Variant Raise II a certain number of times, though all other Variant Actions will also be unavailable. Fulfilling certain requirements will recover Variant Raise II’s limited number of uses. Enemies that were defeated will not revive after your whole party is KO’d. Even common enemies will feature a slew of different attacks, so you may want to consider the priority of which ones to defeat first.


As for Another Sil’dihn Subterrane (Savage), joining will require a pre-formed party of four players. All methods of resurrection and Variant Actions will be unavailable, and all defeated enemies will revive when your party is KO’d. Enemies also won’t telegraph any of their attacks, you’ll need to memorize them from Another Sil’dihn Subterrane. Furthermore, they’ll become much stronger after certain period, so you’ll need to clear the dungeon within a certain time limit!

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I understand why you might think that, but a difference in difficulty doesn't always have to mean a higher ilvl is required. Savage will have more in the way of challenges for people to overcome. The following is from the last Live Letter

Groups joining Another Sil’dihn Subterrane with less than 4 members will be matched together. In exchange for the usual methods of resurrection being unavailable, each member will be able to use Variant Raise II a certain number of times, though all other Variant Actions will also be unavailable. Fulfilling certain requirements will recover Variant Raise II’s limited number of uses. Enemies that were defeated will not revive after your whole party is KO’d. Even common enemies will feature a slew of different attacks, so you may want to consider the priority of which ones to defeat first.


As for Another Sil’dihn Subterrane (Savage), joining will require a pre-formed party of four players. All methods of resurrection and Variant Actions will be unavailable, and all defeated enemies will revive when your party is KO’d. Enemies also won’t telegraph any of their attacks, you’ll need to memorize them from Another Sil’dihn Subterrane. Furthermore, they’ll become much stronger after certain period, so you’ll need to clear the dungeon within a certain time limit!

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Do you have an example where ex/savage is same ilvl requirements?

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I was wondering, if the savage version of variant dungeon will be specifically designed for those at ilvl625+? Or maybe even only for those at ilvl 630?

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Maybe not 630, but I disagree with people thinking it will be 610. Yoshida mentioned during the last live letter that the savage difficulty is aimed at people who have good gear from clearing the savage raid tier early on.

The good compromise seems to be between i615-i620 but that’s just me wild guessing.

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Originally Posted by Chooty

Maybe not 630, but I disagree with people thinking it will be 610. Yoshida mentioned during the last live letter that the savage difficulty is aimed at people who have good gear from clearing the savage raid tier early on.

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I'm guessing 620 then.

And then ... surprise ! No ilvl required, fixed stats, no pots allowed and lv synced to 90 so everyone from level 1 to 90 can do it.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Do you have an example where ex/savage is same ilvl requirements?

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Delubrum Reginae is 430 for both difficulties and the closest match to this content. I think it might even come with a level sync as those did, otherwise it gets too easy when the next set of gear comes out.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Delubrum Reginae is 430 for both difficulties and the closest match to this content. I think it might even come with a level sync as those did, otherwise it gets too easy when the next set of gear comes out.

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Bozja is not a particularly relevant example, because in Bozjan content—including Delubrum—your stats are based just on having something in a gear slot; you can use a level 5 weapon and it will function the same as a level 80 one. The only stats on gear that matter are the Bozja-specific stats on certain sets. A better comparison would be Storm's Crown EX (minimum ilevel i600) and P5S (minimum ilevel i600).

Folks have claimed i620 before for the Criterion dungeon's Savage variant, and while I don't remember seeing that confirmed anywhere, I can see that as a reasonable ilevel; i620 gear is obtainable via just tomestones. The only place I see it as a 'maybe not' is that you cannot have two Lunar Emissary rings (due to their being flagged Unique), and there's no other i620+ accessory option available outside of savage at present. Which means you'd have to do savage to get an Abyssos ring (in P5S), or a Coating (in P6S) to augment your first Lunar Emissary one, or you'd have to wait until 6.3 lands and you can use the alliance raid upgrade tokens to upgrade the first Lunar Emissary ring and get a second (unaugmented one).

That's the reason I'd hope for i615—current crafted gear plus at least some tomestone gear—to make it accessible immediately without requiring savage. But even straight i620 doesn't require savage, if you're willing to wait until 6.3 (and the second alliance raid) for an upgrade token to resolve that last accessory slot.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Delubrum Reginae is 430 for both difficulties and the closest match to this content. I think it might even come with a level sync as those did, otherwise it gets too easy when the next set of gear comes out.

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from what we saw in LL, criterion savage is synced at i635 (no min ilvl), like ultimates (i605 synced for dsr, no min ilvl)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...001_190513.jpg

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

from what we saw in LL, criterion savage is synced at i635 (no min ilvl), like ultimates (i605 synced for dsr, no min ilvl)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...001_190513.jpg

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So why post this thread and then come back with the answer?

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

So why post this thread and then come back with the answer?

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synced at 635 (without min ilvl) doens't necessarily mean "only doable with i630"

In that picture, Yoshi-P is only item level 618. It says he can't enter because it's for 4 people. It does not say he can't enter because of item level.

If you can't enter content because of item level, it actually says and specifies the item level you require, which we would be able to see in English. Try unequipping everything and looking at raids and dungeons and you will see.

still working on my main sets ranged is currenty at 615 still building with 620 gear and using 610 as temp gear shooting for full 620 set on ranged jobs

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

In that picture, Yoshi-P is only item level 618. It says he can't enter because it's for 4 people. It does not say he can't enter because of item level.

If you can't enter content because of item level, it actually says and specifies the item level you require, which we would be able to see in English. Try unequipping everything and looking at raids and dungeons and you will see.

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You can also enter DSR with i580

I'm curious given I don't do Savage what ilevel was minimum for this tier? I would suspect that would be the same requirement for the Criterion dungeons. They certainly won't be set up for people who have completed savage and have the latest Biz gear.

I hope its not too high. I got friends who aren't interested in savage raids, but loves the idea of savage dungeons, due to the ease of getting 4 friends togheter, rather than 8.

Since p8 is set to 610 I think 610-615 would be fine

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

610 will be the likely ilvl just because there are people that aren't into savage tier that would find a light party easier to deal with.

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Variant Dungeons are meant to be for the casual "easier" player base.

Savage dungeons are meant for people who strive for an extra challenge.

I don't think BiS will be the base ilevel for it, prob 615 ish.

It's 618 or below, at least according to the picture.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

You can also enter DSR with i580

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Ultimates seem to be special and don't have an "Average Item Level" that you must meet. Of course, this item level is not relevant if you queue with a full party anyway, because a full party can ignore the item level requirement since a patch that happened a long time ago now, but if there is an "Average Item Level" that you are not meeting it still says.

Because a full party can ignore the item level requirement, it's less of an issue, but then we can say the content is tuned to that item level and being below it might be too hard. It seems like it is 618 or below so you can probably use crafted gear.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

610 will be the likely ilvl just because there are people that aren't into savage tier that would find a light party easier to deal with.

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Pretty much has to be 610 as it needs to be accessible to non raiders.

Barring non-raiders would be a creative way of shooting themselves in the foot, gotta hand them that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Pretty much has to be 610 as it needs to be accessible to non raiders.

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why will the savage version be i610 when the ex version is 610 min ilvl ?

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

Barring non-raiders would be a creative way of shooting themselves in the foot, gotta hand them that.

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Its the case for ultimates, I dont think criterion savage is meant for casuals ?
Variant dungeon and criterion ex is meant for casuals

If you think that all non-raiders are casual, you have missed why M+ became competitive in WoW.

I still feel there should be no difference in ilvl for reasons stated above.

While I don't engage in anything above extreme, it's a choice I make primarily for keeping the stress down. Finding and retaining a good static of 8 is troublesome. Savage in PF can be a nightmare and I'm already low on patience from EX. :) I know I'm not alone in this. Locking us out would be an unfair mistake.

Savage raiders already have their tier to work through and there are those of us looking for a challenge without all the fuss. I see this as a nice middle ground. It's easier to line up 4 schedules or just find 3 other players that aren't looking to get carried.

It's supposed to be a difficult challenge for the best players, and being able to overgear it with savage gear would defeat the entire point of having this content. If it syncs at 635, my guess is it will probably be tuned close to that. Being able to queue with a lower item level won't matter if it's impossible to clear with bad gear, same as savage raids.

It would be incredibly narrow if the content was tuned specifically for BiS savage raiders and nothing else to be honest. But I guess it's nice that the top elite gets a niche here and there too?
Personally I was hoping for super difficult content that wasn't gear dependent so I could feel good about playing well.

The people who have been especially wanting this are people who don't do savage, because they are only interested in 4-person content and find that a lot easier to form a party for, and people who just want dungeons to actually be challenging. It wouldn't make much sense to treat it like an ultimate and say that if you haven't cleared savage then you can't clear it.

It actually seems that there just isn't a minimum item level because in the non-savage version it's next to the item level sync. Since it's missing we won't have a clear answer but I think it would be a mistake to aim it specifically at people who have cleared 8-person savage.

Even if it is tuned for 630, I doubt it will be unclearable at lower item levels because they have explained how it's possible to go beyond enrage and players will probably find a way to beat it as well.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

It would be incredibly narrow if the content was tuned specifically for BiS savage raiders and nothing else to be honest.

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There is 3 version, variant (= easy), criterion EX (=ex level or maybe even savage) and criterion savage (=???)

I don't really see the problem for the savage version to be tuned for i630 bis, as it will probably be very hard to clear

I'm not saying it's the right choice to tune it for savage raid gear. But if it syncs to 635 it should not be clearable with anything under, say, 625. Why release something that people can overgear day 1? They could also make it accessible to non-raiders by syncing at 615 and making it clearable with 610+ gear. Then no one would be able to overgear it right away and everyone would meet the checks.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

610 will be the likely ilvl just because there are people that aren't into savage tier that would find a light party easier to deal with.

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Savage starts at 625, they specified. It's not being called savage for no reason. I believe 610 is for the "extreme" version.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I'm not saying it's the right choice to tune it for savage raid gear. But if it syncs to 635 it should not be clearable with anything under, say, 625. Why release something that people can overgear day 1? They could also make it accessible to non-raiders by syncing at 615 and making it clearable with 610+ gear. Then no one would be able to overgear it right away and everyone would meet the checks.

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Criterion savage isn't meant to be accessible to non-raiders. That's why it literally has "Savage" in the title. The accessible dungeon for non-raiders is the Variant version. And probably Extreme to an extent.

Also even if it syncs to 635, that won't be even obtainable until 6.4 weapon aside. So I don't think overgearing is a particular concern here.

Gonna be interesting to see how job balance even works in there, tuning for 625/BiS or no. With raise being blocked entirely, SMN/RDM will basically be non-starter jobs to take; honestly caster in general will probably be the dumped role in favor of DNC/Melee/Tank/Healer.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

why will the savage version be i610 when the ex version is 610 min ilvl ?

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Hate to be that person but source on that claim?

What if they treat it akin to unreal sync? Gear won’t matter at that point. The enemies will scale to the difficulty of dungeon type. (Normal, EX, Savage)