A Realm Reborn Leveling and Endwalker's Stat Squish

So I don't know how many of you have decided to replay A Realm Reborn on a fresh character ever since Endwalker dropped, whether to see all the reworked content and quests they put in or just cause you felt like it, but I think anyone who has may have noticed a very weird discrepancy between how the game was back then vs how it is now.
Why is exp so abundant now? It's like they reduced the amount of exp required to level up but not the amount you get for a given activity or quest. Before EW it used to be that if you wanted to do every extracurricular activity alongside the story like side quests and hunting logs you'd need to use a secondary class in order to not get too far ahead of where the game expects you to be, however now you're essentially forced to level 2-3 different classes just to get through the MSQ by itself.
How is it acceptable that a single dungeon which you enter at the lowest possible level will finish you 3-4 levels ahead? It just feels like there was no thought put into how exp is distributed but because it's a surplus and doesn't lock the player out of progression it went ignored, even if it does diminish the quality of gameplay.
Maybe this is just a me thing, but I really don't enjoy being 10 to 20 levels ahead of the story with high level gear and all my cool new abilities unlocked only to get synced down back to the point I should be for the story dungeons or instances that I'm doing. Ideally the game should be balanced so that if I'm only doing the story with a single class I should always have barely enough to make it through the level checks, so that it's possible to experience the progression of the narrative and the progression of your character in conjunction.

There used to be some dead spots in leveling, where if you only did the MSQ and nothing else, you'd be locked out until you ground out a level or two to continue. They were trying to correct that, but they overdid it.

It's even worse if you're on a server with the Road to 80 buff. I made an alt on one recently and I had my level 50 artifact gear before I even got to Titan. Currently said alt has three jobs at or close to 70 and hasn't yet made it to the Antitower.

I have a couple of alts.., one more if Female Hroths turn out nicely, and clearly of the same race as the makes.

but yeah, there's a nice chunk of exp to be had.

for me personally it's nice, since you can avoid lvl 80 for now and level your alts quickly.

I can get how for some it's too much, and not nice.[I wish I could get tome gear beforehand tbh. it's a pain when you're undergeared, yet overleveled for content. Bardams anyone..,?]

So in short, for me it's a boon. and I don't mind that it's like it is atm.
[when 7.0 comes around, new characters will be able to level to 89, without issue. which is an even bigger boon. since can you imagine leveling that long. on alts too. and unless you're RP your character mono, or a few classes. you will eventually level all again]


it's a, if you like it, you love it. if you dislike it. you ask Why..,?

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Originally Posted by Ameela

Why is exp so abundant now? It's like they reduced the amount of exp required to level up

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That was done on purpose for ARR and some expansions, particularly Endwalker, which was the first expansion designed to be done without sidequests. In all other expansions, you could do all sidequests and 6 fates in every area and still be slightly behind.

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now you're essentially forced to level 2-3 different classes just to get through the MSQ by itself.

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No you are not. You can still do the MSQ on that one class even if they are at max level. You lose out on the experience but it doesn't really matter because it's not that hard to level other classes.

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How is it acceptable that a single dungeon which you enter at the lowest possible level will finish you 3-4 levels ahead?

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This happened before the stat squish or any of the experience changes in ARR. It's increased a lot by a combination of factors including the challenge log, FC buffs, earrings you might have from an expansion, the hall of the novice ring and food. It's worse if you have the Road to 80 buff because it doubles experience gain.

I think it makes sense that the MSQ should provide ample experience to coast through the story and never have to stop to grind -- especially since there are now multiple expansions for new players to get through before they reach current content, and it's A LOT. However, they went WAY overboard with it, to a ridiculous degree.

I wish they would drastically decrease the experience from MSQ, but drastically increase the experience from side quests. At this point, I don't even know why side quests exist. People say "Oh, you can level alt jobs with them." Does anybody actually do that? These things don't even give you 1% of a level's worth of experience, they are literally a waste of time. I just want to do them for extra lore and mini-stories in the area, but it's hard to justify spending time on them when that's basically all you're getting out of it.

agreed.., but since it's informational.
later side quests are level variable.
so some players save them before Expac day, so they store up on exp, and get that nice exp chunk boost.
Alongside Tales, and other things.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I think it makes sense that the MSQ should provide ample experience to coast through the story and never have to stop to grind -- especially since there are now multiple expansions for new players to get through before they reach current content, and it's A LOT. However, they went WAY overboard with it, to a ridiculous degree.

I wish they would drastically decrease the experience from MSQ, but drastically increase the experience from side quests. At this point, I don't even know why side quests exist. People say "Oh, you can level alt jobs with them." Does anybody actually do that? These things don't even give you 1% of a level's worth of experience, they are literally a waste of time. I just want to do them for extra lore and mini-stories in the area, but it's hard to justify spending time on them when that's basically all you're getting out of it.

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I'm down for this. Leveling alt classes is such a pain because almost everything that you don't have to queue for gives so low xp. If sidequests and FATEs gave more xp I think there would be more incentive to do them while queued up for something. PoTD makes me go insane running it over and over, I wish there were better leveling options.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

So I don't know how many of you have decided to replay A Realm Reborn on a fresh character ever since Endwalker dropped, whether to see all the reworked content and quests they put in or just cause you felt like it, but I think anyone who has may have noticed a very weird discrepancy between how the game was back then vs how it is now.
Why is exp so abundant now? It's like they reduced the amount of exp required to level up but not the amount you get for a given activity or quest. Before EW it used to be that if you wanted to do every extracurricular activity alongside the story like side quests and hunting logs you'd need to use a secondary class in order to not get too far ahead of where the game expects you to be, however now you're essentially forced to level 2-3 different classes just to get through the MSQ by itself.
How is it acceptable that a single dungeon which you enter at the lowest possible level will finish you 3-4 levels ahead? It just feels like there was no thought put into how exp is distributed but because it's a surplus and doesn't lock the player out of progression it went ignored, even if it does diminish the quality of gameplay.
Maybe this is just a me thing, but I really don't enjoy being 10 to 20 levels ahead of the story with high level gear and all my cool new abilities unlocked only to get synced down back to the point I should be for the story dungeons or instances that I'm doing. Ideally the game should be balanced so that if I'm only doing the story with a single class I should always have barely enough to make it through the level checks, so that it's possible to experience the progression of the narrative and the progression of your character in conjunction.

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So there's a couple of major factors at play. One I personally dont mind nor care for the early leveling for your main job is much quicker and I wholefully welcome it.

Anyway Factor 1: Did you make a fresh alt at a preferred world? You get a 90 day triple bonus exp buff that seriously nets you chunk of levels through which is probably why you're noticing the huge level discrepancy between where you're at in levels in relation to your progress with MSQ.

2. The dungeon exp slowly starts to dwindle down once you start hitting around lv.30 content. Even if you have the buff, you wont be gaining 3-4 levels within a run anymore but you'll still probably gain one or 2 levels a piece. Its not that they buffed the early dungeon boss exp gain but more so that the exp needed isnt as much to get you to within early level ranges. This quickly slowly widens the gap the further you go through the content and without the server bonus exp buff you'll be hitting that stop fairly soon.

Honestly though, this really only applies to your main job as you'll still earn good amount of exp just doing msq unless you spread the gain amongst multiple jobs in which case is a decent solution if you want to avoid overleveling.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

So I don't know how many of you have decided to replay A Realm Reborn on a fresh character ... but I think anyone who has may have noticed a very weird discrepancy between how the game was back then vs how it is now. Why is exp so abundant now?

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My theory? Because everything through Heavensward is part of the free trial, and SE wants people playing the free trial to have an easy fun time getting to the point where they need to make the decision to subscribe.

It's even more pronounced on preferred worlds where you get the Road to 80 buff, BTW.
My spouse and I cope by leveling at least two classes at once until level 60: me CNJ+WAR, her CNJ+PLD.
Then at 60 we both pick up Dancer and start leveling three classes at once.
Even with that, I'm doing L67 MSQs in Stormblood now with all three classes at 72 or better.

There are a multitude of things to complain about in this game's design, but MSQ exp is not one of them.
MSQ combat pits you against a lot of trash enemies that are a repetitive bore to fight. Whether you kill them in 1 or 20 casts really doesn't matter. Being overveled for the MSQ is a blessing, not a curse.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

There are a multitude of things to complain about in this game's design, but MSQ exp is not one of them.
MSQ combat pits you against a lot of trash enemies that are a repetitive bore to fight. Whether you kill them in 1 or 20 casts really doesn't matter. Being overveled for the MSQ is a blessing, not a curse.

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Irregardless of how challenging MSQ and overworld combat really is, I still dislike how the game handles progression by making you so overleveled and giving you a bunch of cool abilities and then slapping a level sync on you to, in a way, completely invalidate your progress and take away those shiny new toys you wanna try out on mobs that dont die in a single hit from a Fast Blade.
To me, RPGs like this hinge a lot on the satisfaction of seeing your character get better and grow as you go through the game. I don't think I'm alone in finding this appealing given that these stat growth systems have infested pretty much every single modern video game whether it's a good fit for the genre or not.
In XIV even once you reach max level the whole game revolves around getting increasingly better gear, so you're constantly working on improving and progressing your character no matter what.
So with this in mind I'd argue that making sure the initial leveling system is as smooth and satisfying as possible should be one of the top priorities with the game, especially given how they struggle with player retention - I don't think it's a coincidence that most players drop XIV in that post-ARR stretch where your character is completely stagnant, not getting any new skills and outfitted with the best possible gear from the outset.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

So I don't know how many of you have decided to replay A Realm Reborn on a fresh character ever since Endwalker dropped, whether to see all the reworked content and quests they put in or just cause you felt like it, but I think anyone who has may have noticed a very weird discrepancy between how the game was back then vs how it is now.

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I made another alt a couple of weeks ago, just for the changes to ARR and the other expansions. Right now I'm fixing to do Bardam Mettle in Stormblood expansion and I'm level 70 already. I know when I hit level 75 though it will slow down to a trickle. I'm also wearing the Endwalker bonus earring.

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How is it acceptable that a single dungeon which you enter at the lowest possible level will finish you 3-4 levels ahead?

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What I noticed is the experience gain is huge until you hit level 55, 65, 75. Then it slows dramatically down. Like at level 65 in Heavensward, I was getting only 5k exp for each completed msq quest at that level. The game is meant to do this until you finish one expansion and enter the next. It all balances out in the end. Especially when you hit end game, so I have no problem with how experience is doled out and then scaled back.

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Maybe this is just a me thing, but I really don't enjoy being 10 to 20 levels ahead of the story with high level gear and all my cool new abilities unlocked only to get synced down back to the point I should be for the story dungeons or instances that I'm doing. Ideally the game should be balanced so that if I'm only doing the story with a single class I should always have barely enough to make it through the level checks, so that it's possible to experience the progression of the narrative and the progression of your character in conjunction.

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What fun would it be to have all your unlocked skills over the requirements for a dungeon/instances? To me that would feel like cheating and pretty boring. You can also go minimum ilevel if you want to feel that "scrape by the skin of your teeth" feel. I mean you've already did all this once before right? Played each expansion fresh? Personally I'm fine with the overload of exp. on my alt and how it balances itself.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

What fun would it be to have all your unlocked skills over the requirements for a dungeon/instances? To me that would feel like cheating and pretty boring. You can also go minimum ilevel if you want to feel that "scrape by the skin of your teeth" feel. I mean you've already did all this once before right? Played each expansion fresh? Personally I'm fine with the overload of exp. on my alt and how it balances itself.

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Oh you misunderstand me, I'm not clamoring for all skills to be unlocked in level synced dungeons, I just want experience and character levels to be more in line with when those dungeons are unlocked, so that the disconnect between what your character is like in the overworld vs in instances doesn't exist or is at the very least minimized until you're done with the MSQ.
And while it's true that I've already done most of this content while it was fresh a part of me does wish I could go back and play it again with that same freshness. I replay all kinds of games all the time and when I do I'm hoping to have a similar experience to when I played it the first time, which sadly is just no longer the case with something like XIV. But this thread is mostly about the new player experience rather than the old player replaying one.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

So with this in mind I'd argue that making sure the initial leveling system is as smooth and satisfying as possible should be one of the top priorities with the game, especially given how they struggle with player retention - I don't think it's a coincidence that most players drop XIV in that post-ARR stretch where your character is completely stagnant, not getting any new skills and outfitted with the best possible gear from the outset.

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Most players drop post ARR? Wow you better check your statistics again. What I've experience from others, they like how ARR is scale back now and many enjoy the ARR msq. Those that want to move onto the widely talked about Heavensward, appreciates the fact that the quests have been scaled back and experience is abundant. I remember the old ARR, where you had all the nonsense questing to just unlock the next instance/dungeon/raid. I don't really want a repeat of that on an alt. So many have pegged it about right, that experience gain is at the bottom of the list of things to complain about.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

Oh you misunderstand me, I'm not clamoring for all skills to be unlocked in level synced dungeons, I just want experience and character levels to be more in line with when those dungeons are unlocked, so that the disconnect between what your character is like in the overworld vs in instances doesn't exist or is at the very least minimized until you're done with the MSQ.
And while it's true that I've already done most of this content while it was fresh a part of me does wish I could go back and play it again with that same freshness. I replay all kinds of games all the time and when I do I'm hoping to have a similar experience to when I played it the first time, which sadly is just no longer the case with something like XIV. But this thread is mostly about the new player experience rather than the old player replaying one.

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Yeah I get what you are saying about those that are trying the game for the first time. Like the Crystal Towers to feel like an achievement, but due to the mostly over gear players it's near impossible unless you get a minimum ilevel group, and that is not an easy thing to do. I just don't see how Square can accommodate both main and alt experience with the game without it disrupting one or the other group.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

I just don't see how Square can accommodate both main and alt experience with the game without it disrupting one or the other group.

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By capping the ilvls on content. Simply because they havent done this, most of the content where you can use your lvl 50,60,70 gear are balanced towards the ilvl cap of that level gap. This gives a massive boost in stats. In ARR its worse since the cap between the lowest and highest is larger (ilvl50 and ilvl 130 is already a ilvl growth of 160%, and while you can flatten some stats here, the lvls should still have meaning). By using proper ilvl caps the experience can be improved again. And it shows this exactly in the reworked dungeons of the msq roulette.

They can also disrupt the naked joining of such roulette by forcing a few things:
- A minimum ilvl. Optimaly one that includes the 3 HW raids (and make these mandatory to unlock the roulette).
- And as the ARR raids are part of the MSQ, these raids should be included there. I know it brings the issue of 8p content vs 24p content. But it doesnt realy matter much since the waiting times for that roulette are generaly fair anyway (and these raids are generaly also beneficial towards dps classes).
- Forcing some rewards to scale based on ilvl rather than char lvl. For example to get the lvl 90 tomestones, you can still demand them to wear at least a certain ilvl (but then using ilvls of lvl 80 gear). This punishes naked joining. The same can also be done at lvl 70 by simply making the poetics rewards reduced or gone when they use anything lower than lvl 60.

This lack of 'balancing' is the reason why ARR still feels like a mess.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

This lack of 'balancing' is the reason why ARR still feels like a mess.

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It's not just ARR. SE does item level syncs on solo duties and dungeons, but not usually on content with 8 people unless it's the second MSQ trial of an expansion, so most of it ends up completely braindead.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

So I don't know how many of you have decided to replay A Realm Reborn on a fresh character ever since Endwalker dropped, whether to see all the reworked content and quests they put in or just cause you felt like it, but I think anyone who has may have noticed a very weird discrepancy between how the game was back then vs how it is now.
Why is exp so abundant now? It's like they reduced the amount of exp required to level up but not the amount you get for a given activity or quest. Before EW it used to be that if you wanted to do every extracurricular activity alongside the story like side quests and hunting logs you'd need to use a secondary class in order to not get too far ahead of where the game expects you to be, however now you're essentially forced to level 2-3 different classes just to get through the MSQ by itself.
How is it acceptable that a single dungeon which you enter at the lowest possible level will finish you 3-4 levels ahead? It just feels like there was no thought put into how exp is distributed but because it's a surplus and doesn't lock the player out of progression it went ignored, even if it does diminish the quality of gameplay.
Maybe this is just a me thing, but I really don't enjoy being 10 to 20 levels ahead of the story with high level gear and all my cool new abilities unlocked only to get synced down back to the point I should be for the story dungeons or instances that I'm doing. Ideally the game should be balanced so that if I'm only doing the story with a single class I should always have barely enough to make it through the level checks, so that it's possible to experience the progression of the narrative and the progression of your character in conjunction.

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The change really goes back to the ARR revamp released in 5.3. I don't feel as if the numbers squish with EW's release has had an impact on the speed compared to post-5.3.

First thing to consider is what XP bonuses you have access to. I leveled a character through ARR and partway into HW back in 5.4 without any experience bonuses other than rested XP and that was minimized by playing the character daily. I also did no side content other than class/job quests unless I needed to do more to level up for MSQ.

While there was an initial jump in levels ahead of the MSQ once MSQ left the immediate starting city and went into the questing areas, that leveled off by the time the character got into the 30s. Once I got to the Castrum rescue, my character's level was the same as the MSQ level. That meant once the rescue was completed (level 46) and the next quest was Operation Archon (level 49), I did have to do some side grinding to bridge that gap. For the part of HW that I completed, I was only head of MSQ by 1-2 levels.

Doing the same with FC Heat of Battle, pre-order bonus earring, Road to 70 (now Road to 80), etc. on a different character left me so far ahead of MSQ that I could level up 2 jobs at the same time. That's what I'm doing on my current character I'm leveling. I'm on the 3.4 MSQ with one job at 67 and the other at 65.

So the game is balanced for the completely new player that doesn't have access to XP bonuses and is trying to focus on MSQ over doing side content, which is how it should be. It's not balanced for the more experienced players who have them.

The good thing about having the additional XP is that it does give players a chance to try out new jobs along the way if they aren't happy with their original choice or they want flexibility when it's time to do a dungeon. It would be very tedious to level a new job from scratch otherwise. I typically have a DPS job for when I'm doing solo parts of the MSQ, then either tank or healer I switch to for dungeons/trials.

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Originally Posted by Arazehl

What I noticed is the experience gain is huge until you hit level 55, 65, 75. Then it slows dramatically down. Like at level 65 in Heavensward, I was getting only 5k exp for each completed msq quest at that level.

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More precisely, MSQ experience drops to near-trival amounts for MSQ quests that are in patches released between major expansions.

A complete list of all the MSQ in order and grouped by what expansion or patch they are in can be found at https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...cenario_Quests.
There are sub-pages at that website for each expansion and each series of patches if the one long list seems a hassle. I consult those lists pretty often, whenever I'm wondering "how much longer until I get to X."
The lists also link to pages for each quest.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

There used to be some dead spots in leveling, where if you only did the MSQ and nothing else, you'd be locked out until you ground out a level or two to continue. They were trying to correct that, but they overdid it.

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I actually remember this. On my old trial account that I lost before I eventually made this one and at a couple spots around level 40ish range and around level 48-50ish range, I remember grinding roulettes for experience because I didn't get enough experience through the MSQ itself.

I didn't encounter this when I came back and played through my current character though, but it always made me wonder what the intentions were.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I actually remember this. On my old trial account that I lost before I eventually made this one and at a couple spots around level 40ish range and around level 48-50ish range, I remember grinding roulettes for experience because I didn't get enough experience through the MSQ itself.

I didn't encounter this when I came back and played through my current character though, but it always made me wonder what the intentions were.

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For me with the jump from 47 to 49 I always took it as the game expecting you to do a bunch of FATEs around Northern Thanalan, which would be interpreted as thinning down the frontlines so you can invade the Castrum.