Yoshida: Yes all dps taxes are real.

YES WE HAVE ULTILITY TAX
YES WE HAVE RANGED TAX
YES WE HAVE DIFFICULTY TAX

I am ok if he says so. Time to play something else.(another job or game? I dunno

Really sad they are going to nerf samurai tho.

So... we just gonna admit defeat or are we going the extra mile to say "we dislike your design philosophy"?

I dislike the defeatist mentality, so consider me unshaken by the news.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

So... we just gonna admit defeat or are we going the extra mile to say "we dislike your design philosophy"?

I dislike the defeatist mentality, so consider me unshaken by the news.

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Stick to it! You have my moral support.

I'm cancelling my sub after this tier at least for a while unless things change, I have 0 faith in the dev team because of today. They talk about all these taxes but skew fights to favour melees. Then have the audacity to say its by design you're excluded from some content, "we won't fix the true game's issues because we know it won't fix anything". Mch is easy to play and deserves to be where it is in the balance. Like come on, for real, just nerf all phys ranged and give us all one generic buff like we all know you want to. Dancer is the easiest job I've played in the role, min maxing mch is harder for me personally, and I enjoyed that difficulty. Hey though, devs know best, they should just delete the job if we're all being honest. All in all, I don't see the point in paying a monthly sub to be unable to participate in day one hard content because the devs are backwards in their thinking. I mean they're reworking and making all jobs stupidly easy and have to say they design based on difficulty, in the words of chuck "what a sick joke". Once all the reworks have rolled out and everyone is somewhat disapointed with the destruction of their job idenity, I wonder what the balance will look like.

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Originally Posted by ShimAoki

I'm cancelling my sub after this tier at least for a while unless things change, I have 0 faith in the dev team because of today. They talk about all these taxes but skew fights to favour melees. Then have the audacity to say its by design you're excluded from some content, "we won't fix the true game's issues because we know it won't fix anything". Mch is easy to play and deserves to be where it is in the balance. Like come on, for real, just nerf all phys ranged and give us all one generic buff like we all know you want to. Dancer is the easiest job I've played in the role, min maxing mch is harder for me personally, and I enjoyed that difficulty. Hey though, devs know best, they should just delete the job if we're all being honest. All in all, I don't see the point in paying a monthly sub to be unable to participate in day one hard content because the devs are backwards in their thinking. I mean they're reworking and making all jobs stupidly easy and have to say they design based on difficulty, in the words of chuck "what a sick joke". Once all the reworks have rolled out and everyone is somewhat disapointed with the destruction of their job idenity, I wonder what the balance will look like.

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Same. Maintaining 3 accounts is quite cumbersome and I can go play some Yakuza 0, or try out it takes two with my GF or something.

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Originally Posted by ShimAoki

I'm cancelling my sub after this tier at least for a while unless things change, I have 0 faith in the dev team because of today. They talk about all these taxes but skew fights to favour melees. Then have the audacity to say its by design you're excluded from some content, "we won't fix the true game's issues because we know it won't fix anything". Mch is easy to play and deserves to be where it is in the balance. Like come on, for real, just nerf all phys ranged and give us all one generic buff like we all know you want to.

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I have a better idea. Let's remove the role bonus!
Surely this way SQEX will be forced to see that the ranged role is among the least beloved when you can just do the same, but better as a melee.

It just feels harrowing to put so much time into a job and discover it will never get the love from the developers, I don't even think they play it other than random QA tests. Literally years of my life.

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Originally Posted by ShimAoki

It just feels harrowing to put so much time into a job and discover it will never get the love from the developers, I don't even think they play it other than random QA tests. Literally years of my life.

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I feel you bro. I play most of the DPS jobs but this is the job I started with back in 4.0. They are basically saying they know what is wrong and it is intended.

I dont think one need to be gloomy about the confirmation of these taxes as if those are applied it still shows an imbalance between MCH and the other jobs within each role.
Relevant parts of the taxes are difficulty of jobs and their utility.

Now when we look at MCH, BRD and DNC, it will probably make some people mald but according to FFLogs there isnt a tangible difference in the difficulty between MCH, BRD and DNC. Not in the same vain as there is for example between BLM and SMN.

In terms of utility we have the best utility on DNC with curing waltz and healing samba, some minor utlity on BRD and none on MCH.

This should naturally mean we should have a raid dps balancing of DNC < BRD < MCH. In practice it looks exactly the other way around. So assuming they wouldnt nerf DNC but buff BRD and MCH accordingly, the overall balance of the role would look much better.

I have always found it funny how all of these things are framed only in the negative side of the axis.
There are only selfish DPS, not generous DPS.
Things are taxes, rather than bonuses.
You can only lose something instead of gain anything.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I have always found it funny how all of these things are framed only in the negative side of the axis.
There are only selfish DPS, not generous DPS.
Things are taxes, rather than bonuses.
You can only lose something instead of gain anything.

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When you perform a fight's mechanics and your rotation perfectly and still don't clear the dps check, it's hard to see it as anything but a tax or a loss.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

I have always found it funny how all of these things are framed only in the negative side of the axis.
There are only selfish DPS, not generous DPS.
Things are taxes, rather than bonuses.
You can only lose something instead of gain anything.

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You heard it ranged players: Always look on the bright side of life ♪♫

Basing output on difficulty I don't really care for...

That said, this isn't anything new. We have always known that DPS output is balanced around utility a mobility and it isn't unique to FFXIV. Other MMO's do the same thing, but the main difference is other MMO's generally don't have 100% mobile ranged classes. They always have some kind of number of casted/channeled skill mixed in to root them in place at times.

Players: "It'd be weird if they balanced around something as subjective and murky as job difficulty, and a bit inconsistent with how they've been doing things--"
Yoshi: "Uhm actually, we do want to balance around job difficulty."
DNC, new-SMN, new-SAM: *sweats nervously*
Yoshi: "And by this, I mean just MCH. Only MCH will be punished for being easy."
RDM: "I--"
Yoshi: "Quiet, you. Back into the shed where you belong."

Damn bro, here we are

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

When you perform a fight's mechanics and your rotation perfectly and still don't clear the dps check, it's hard to see it as anything but a tax or a loss.

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And they responded to that by making the fight easier, quite quickly you can even say.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

And they responded to that by making the fight easier, quite quickly you can even say.

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Instead of buffing the jobs who needed it. You know, not a lot but just a bit. Enough to show they acknowledge the issue.

I guess I'll just have to deal with rock bottom dps...

With embolden making my rdps higher than a mch ;p (I'm still here for you MCHs, group hug).

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Originally Posted by Ayche

And they responded to that by making the fight easier, quite quickly you can even say.

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This will also fix absolutely nothing in the future. As soon as the next content releases it will either be way too easy when you run a meta comp or balanced around a meta comp's output and those underperforming jobs will get screwed over once again. All they did by nerfing the boss was delay having to fix the underlying issue.

This is a real gut punch. If it really bothers us that much, then maybe range dps players need to go on strike. I always encourage playing other jobs anyhow, and Yoshida encourages playing other games. Make the devs own their current job design when party comp gets further thrown out of whack, and groups can't fill their party buff quota.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Instead of buffing the jobs who needed it. You know, not a lot but just a bit. Enough to show they acknowledge the issue.

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If you have time only for a Hotfix, you perhaps can tinker potencies of tanks, who do not ever buff dps of others.
However, buffing multiple DPS jobs with various roles in composition - and not making even bigger mess - needs more time.

I agree that they should have communicated this clearly and say, that dps adjustments will take more time.
Because what people displike most, is being (even seemingly) ignored.

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

If you have time only for a Hotfix, you perhaps can tinker potencies of tanks, who do not ever buff dps of others.
However, buffing multiple DPS jobs with various roles in composition - and not making even bigger mess - needs more time.

I agree that they should have communicated this clearly and say, that dps adjustments will take more time.
Because what people displike most, is being (even seemingly) ignored.

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The patch cycles for the game are slow enough as it is for any relevant balancing. Maybe some hotfixes at 6.25, but at the pace of 6.21 the next actual balance patch is gonna come at 6.3, by which time these changes will not be relevant until the next savage at 6.4 anyways. Also, it wouldn't be difficult to just look at statistics and say, oh maybe a bit of buff for this class that is obviously bad.

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Originally Posted by NullPointerException

The patch cycles for the game are slow enough as it is for any relevant balancing. Maybe some hotfixes at 6.25, but at the pace of 6.21 the next actual balance patch is gonna come at 6.3, by which time these changes will not be relevant until the next savage at 6.4 anyways. Also, it wouldn't be difficult to just look at statistics and say, oh maybe a bit of buff for this class that is obviously bad.

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We'll likely see some job adjustments come along with the new dungeon system.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

We'll likely see some job adjustments come along with the new dungeon system.

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I too am high on that copium.

While I am in favour of some consideration given to difficulty when balancing classes 2 problems exist

1) jobs like SAM are being balanced while inclusive of melee uptime considerations as a damage problem when melee uptime consideration doesn’t exist in this tier so they end up overtuned while caster uptime is completely ignored (healers dying in a corner)
2) you can’t balance on difficulty but also randomly throw the jobs difficulty around with reworks, I’m sure a good chunk of disgruntled SMN mains would go back to their old complex rotation to get BLM esque damage back, again this also seems to exclude the melees as SAM and MNK have both gotten explicitly easier this expansion over ShB but are still undisputed top of the pack

I'm not convinced by the 'job difficulty' argument. I've found the Bard harder to manage than dragoon or samurai, and maybe the monk. (the ninja, I just don't like no matter how great it is, & I tend to forget the poor reaper.) I'd much rather have the easier jobs get a little higher difficulty than to be just a lesser dps. And I just don't enjoy melee as much as casters or ranged. It's kind of annoying to have the game basically tell you that you'll be 2-3 melee jobs or you can just take a seat in the back.

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Originally Posted by MichiKyou

I too am high on that copium.

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Its not a copium...They literally do the same pattern every patch cycle for years. Its highly unlikely there wont be some potency adjustments in the next patch. Its not going to be anything major, but they always do some adjustments. Don't expect anything major till 6.3.

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

If you have time only for a Hotfix, you perhaps can tinker potencies of tanks, who do not ever buff dps of others.
However, buffing multiple DPS jobs with various roles in composition - and not making even bigger mess - needs more time.

I agree that they should have communicated this clearly and say, that dps adjustments will take more time.
Because what people displike most, is being (even seemingly) ignored.

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Yeah, my point if is they are scared to up a few potencies because they fear a caster will suddenly do more DPS than a melee whose 8% to 10% ahead then, to the very least, acknowledge you'll do something about the caster in question. Just not right away.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Yeah, my point if is they are scared to up a few potencies because they fear a caster will suddenly do more DPS than a melee whose 8% to 10% ahead then, to the very least, acknowledge you'll do something about the caster in question. Just not right away.

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Exactly just bumping up most caster and range potencies by around 4-5% to account for gear bloat on the melee and scaling buffs wouldn’t shoot the casters so high as to make the melee irrelevant, more than likely it would just close the gap with the melee still on top, I think people would appreciate a hasty “kinda fix” that halves the gap even if it’s not extremely precise than to just say “yeah try again in 6.25”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Exactly just bumping up most caster and range potencies by around 4-5% to account for gear bloat on the melee and scaling buffs wouldn’t shoot the casters so high as to make the melee irrelevant, more than likely it would just close the gap with the melee still on top, I think people would appreciate a hasty “kinda fix” that halves the gap even if it’s not extremely precise than to just say “yeah try again in 6.25”

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¸And XD if they mess up and RDM gets much stronger than SMN or vice versa. I think we can live with it for a few weeks lol.

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

I'm not convinced by the 'job difficulty' argument. I've found the Bard harder to manage than dragoon or samurai, and maybe the monk. (the ninja, I just don't like no matter how great it is, & I tend to forget the poor reaper.) I'd much rather have the easier jobs get a little higher difficulty than to be just a lesser dps. And I just don't enjoy melee as much as casters or ranged. It's kind of annoying to have the game basically tell you that you'll be 2-3 melee jobs or you can just take a seat in the back.

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Trying to equalize jobs so they are all "as hard to play" is counter-productive for two reasons:
1.) People have different things they struggle with, so you cannot really measure what is hard and what isn't.
2.) You want to have more options on what you can play rather than less.
That is why I see it as a bonus system rather than "taxes". You have your basic DPS job that is fairly straightforward. If you get bored with that, they can have these different options where you can try to branch out.

Now after yoshida's post. Think again why they buffed DNC by 1.2% and gave MCH zero stat buff in 6.2. Even when MCH is already the trash tier in 6.1.
The answer is clear as day now: Because they never had any intention to. It is designed to be trash.

Keep this in mind. YoshiP will need to apologize again if they ever want to buff MCH in the future.
"Sorry I didn't really mean taxes, here is a +10 on Clean shot"