Don't change Paladin.

It's the only job left in the game (other than Black Mage, although that particular developer pet goes without saying) that has genuine thought and care put into its design.

Reworking it would be a clear and unambiguous sign to the players of every non-BLM job that they aren't allowed to be different or have fun.

Agree, PLD is fine as it it.
I don't want another "press this oGCD button every 120sec to do your most DMG" class.

They're gonna do you dirty like they did to DRK in ShB and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

I agree with not changing how PLD works.

But your blanket statement about all other jobs sans BLM being thoughtless is at best ignorant, at worst offensive.
There are number of problems, but also not small amount of jobs that work perfectly fine and are fun to play.

Please stop with this hysteric generalization.

I don't play PLD, I'm not interested in its rotation.
I would be interested if there was changes in the physical phase.

But I know many players enjoy PLD the way it is now.
And I agree, we don't need anymore 60s/120s job, we need less.

Keep the PLD DPS rotation the way it is, but please update Cover.

While It's fine to be worried, acting like any change to Paladin will be bad and completely ruin the job just makes no sense.
I'd argue PLD Should have some changes, stuff like Holy Shelltron not working properly Intervention being a worse Holy shelltron while other tank cds are the same if not better when used on someone else, DV, Cover, Passage The list goes on mainly it's utility/defensives should be generally buffed if people still want to call it the "utility tank".

Rotation wise I don't know? The core rotation of having dot upkeep with your high phys damage phase and magic window having two bursts then a small part of your rotation being your non burst is fine, I really hope they don't remove that aspect or any rotational abilities.

At this point I'll wait and see if the changes are good or not, if they're bad then I'll complain, the notion that any change is a bad change just makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Martynek

It's the only job left in the game (other than Black Mage, although that particular developer pet goes without saying) that has genuine thought and care put into its design.

Reworking it would be a clear and unambiguous sign to the players of every non-BLM job that they aren't allowed to be different or have fun.

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So you are asking for a massive rework of the PLD class?
:)

Yeah man, PLD is fine as it is. It's definitely acceptable for a job to be so lacking in synergy with others (and even itself) that its mere presence is actively a hindrance.

Sorry bro you're going to Rework hell and coming back a Fell Cleave Tank.

They wont stop until every Tanks core rotation is 123 Fell Cleave

PLD is getting a rework. Its as clear as day.

Despite not personally enjoying PLD all that much, it really is unfortunate that it will likely be reworked so it can be squashed in line with everything else.

I have mostly played fairly casually with most of my raiding/exs being around arr/hw/sb, though the leaning in recent years towards strict two minute burst windows feels like it's been incredibly destructive when it comes to job design and creativity. It is sad to see.

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Originally Posted by Derio

PLD is getting a rework. Its as clear as day.

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I’d like to see the job fantasy preserved at very least.

Just accept the changes. The current job cannot survive with 2 min burst meta.Only one is surviving is blm due to the fact there no challenger on caster.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

Just accept the changes. The current job cannot survive with 2 min burst meta.Only one is surviving is blm due to the fact there no challenger on caster.

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with enough potency anything can survive. Just like BLM. Just be the strong independent tank that needs no synergy.

If paladin needs a rework for anything, it's the class/job quest storyline.

I volunteer to write it.

If they change paladin to be the same as the other tanks I'll probably quit. If I wanted to play a boring ass 2 min burst job, theres like 20 of them already. I gravitate towards paladin because the rotation is actually a rotation, and not "dump everything in one go under buffs and then 123123 for minutes at a time".
It has high carry potential which allows for some neat saves if you, let's say use req stats to save someone who's about to die with Clem because the healers brains are absent. Cover needs changing but thats it. Everything else is fine.

But part of me thinks itll happen anyway. There's a future with every job being a carbon copy in design and timers of every other job, with the exception of Black Mage, of course.

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Originally Posted by Guhthaerz

If paladin needs a rework for anything, it's the class/job quest storyline.

I volunteer to write it.

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Oh yes please. I love how they are just like. Paladin stuff sucks, bring back gladiator plot.

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Originally Posted by Elizasylen

Oh yes please. I love how they are just like. Paladin stuff sucks, bring back gladiator plot.

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I think what really crippled the quests was how tied down they were to Ul'dah politics, and considering how big a role those played in late Post-ARR and HW, nothing major could really happen in the paladin quests.

Ideally, I think it should've broken off from the Sultansworn early on and immediately gotten to the free paladin stuff. Solkzagl should've taken Jenlyns' place as the primary job mentor. I think this basis alone could fix the plot IMMENSLY and make it similar to say, the samurai quests.

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Originally Posted by Elizasylen

with enough potency anything can survive. Just like BLM. Just be the strong independent tank that needs no synergy.

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Blm is timed around raid buffs and hardcore raid teams pad around it for max potential.

Paladin? Not a chance. Job is garbage for raids, Mch tier.

Pretty sick of that 2minute burst show craze, it ruined almost all jobs already due to this and PLD is quite frankly next in line... enjoy requiescat being on a 120s timer and double it's potency during it - gg "rework"

(excuse the annoyed tone but this 2minute thing just ruins all the battle content fun for me lately...)

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Blm is timed around raid buffs and hardcore raid teams pad around it for max potential.

Paladin? Not a chance. Job is garbage for raids, Mch tier.

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Still with enough potency, you can make anything good.

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Originally Posted by Elizasylen

Still with enough potency, you can make anything good.

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Which is from my previous suggestions move the burst around, Atonement/Goring cut down Reqs numbers.

The way I see it has been:

If you don't like the potency on that job that is otherwise fun to play... either accept the job for being fun and having low potency or move onto another job. We are moving towards a state of homogeneity across jobs and when we reach that point, DoW/M will become like DoH. The job names will just be fluff. Toolsets, hotbars, etc will be (nearly) identical and no one can tell the difference.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

The way I see it has been:

If you don't like the potency on that job that is otherwise fun to play... either accept the job for being fun and having low potency or move onto another job. We are moving towards a state of homogeneity across jobs and when we reach that point, DoW/M will become like DoH. The job names will just be fluff. Toolsets, hotbars, etc will be (nearly) identical and no one can tell the difference.

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This dude said the best answer.

I agree with not wanting to change PLD. Cover needs to be reworked for sure. I don’t know if I want to see Veil and Passage altered too much because I kind of like how tricky they are to pull off.

I switched to PLD from DRK this tier and I don’t plan on returning to DRK even if I’m not doing quite as much damage.

I much prefer having a legitimate rotation that feels satisfying to correctly pull off as opposed to spamming my 1-2-3 and 60 second oGCDs before the dumping everything else during the 2 min window. It’s boring and I hate having to rely on my DPS ensuring that partywide buffs are up for my own personal DPS.

I like that when I do good DPS, it’s mostly because I performed actions in the prioritized order and not because I was paying more attention to my timer.

I like that PLD is a bit more challenging than DRK and WAR especially to play. I don’t like the idea of every class needing to be readily accessible to every player. Getting over the learning curve and becoming a good PLD was a rewarding experience.

If they rework PLD to the extent that all 4 tanks are reliant on the 2 min burst window, I may stop playing the game. Honestly, I am not a fan of the direction this game is going where almost every job plays exactly the same, tanks being in my opinion the most egregious example of this, sans PLD.

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Originally Posted by ClusterDreams

I agree with not wanting to change PLD. Cover needs to be reworked for sure. I don’t know if I want to see Veil and Passage altered too much because I kind of like how tricky they are to pull off.

I switched to PLD from DRK this tier and I don’t plan on returning to DRK even if I’m not doing quite as much damage.

I much prefer having a legitimate rotation that feels satisfying to correctly pull off as opposed to spamming my 1-2-3 and 60 second oGCDs before the dumping everything else during the 2 min window. It’s boring and I hate having to rely on my DPS ensuring that partywide buffs are up for my own personal DPS.

I like that when I do good DPS, it’s mostly because I performed actions in the prioritized order and not because I was paying more attention to my timer.

I like that PLD is a bit more challenging than DRK and WAR especially to play. I don’t like the idea of every class needing to be readily accessible to every player. Getting over the learning curve and becoming a good PLD was a rewarding experience.

If they rework PLD to the extent that all 4 tanks are reliant on the 2 min burst window, I may stop playing the game. Honestly, I am not a fan of the direction this game is going where almost every job plays exactly the same, tanks being in my opinion the most egregious example of this, sans PLD.

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DV/Passage are just unnecessary clunky DV isn't "hard to pull off" it's annoying sometimes you'll be depedent on healers sometimes you'll be mid magic, passage has to be done annoyingly, I just want the raid buffs to be more consistent and good if PLD's meant to be the "utility tank" of course none of this matters at a "high end level" and I just want QOL changes really, Cover is also button bloat they need to rework it, all I want is a few defensive changes and some changes to oath gauge, it's kind of a really bad "job gauge" that only serves a purpose of holding 2 stacks of shelltron/intervention (cover doesn't exist), I dont want it to be a dps gauge though I kinda like how pld's rotation is separate from it's gauge it favours a more fun rotation that's varied instead of a numbers build up gauge like war/drk. Right now though oath gauge is so boring and uninspired, I hope they do rework it to interact with the job more.

I think most people who play PLD really enjoy it's rotation it feels like a actual rotation without having to be weaving a bunch of stuff, I likely wouldn't stop playing the game myself but i can see myself not enjoying the game as much.

Personally, I think that if they want to keep paladin as a "sustained damage" job and also make it compatible with the 2 minute burst meta that they've been forcing on us, they need to give the job more DoT skills to snapshot in while every buff under the sun is out.

If you have a DoT that deals say 1500 potency over 30 seconds with a 2 minute cooldown then the "burst" would be locking in that skill while say 25% worth of damage buffs are out and watching massive damage ticks chunk the boss over the course of however long you want the skill to last.

However, I think the end result would still be "press your highest damage skill every 2 minutes during burst" which is still kind of boring job design

When potency is tuned right, Paladin should have the fastest kill on a training dummy compared to other tanks I think. That way, in a raid setting, other tanks with burst even out because there are interruptions that can happen such as dot potency loss when boss leaves the arena. Also, if they gave us a push this button at the 2 min mark, I'd have to put a duplicate right above my cordial on the side hotbar just to see the cooldown timer on it to know when to hit it, irrelevant of where I am in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Kemeko

That way, in a raid setting, other tanks with burst even out because there are interruptions that can happen such as dot potency loss when boss leaves the arena.

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The raid group delays raid buffs if such mechanics come forward, or improved upon by manipulating timers, parses don't calculate forced downtimes. Faster kills usually results of better numbers except the select few jobs output higher numbers with a slower kill, and Paladin has always been one of them since it needs perfect timing at the end. DRK/GNB output ridiculous numbers if given a fast kill by their raid team, less bursts used to kill: More deeps. Paladin is in complete reverse with it's tool kit and a lot of fights can screw it's typical spreadsheet rotation.

Now when you compare that to new raid tiers, it's terrible for it. You're walking in the unknown non optimised and lacking proper need of DPS, while GNB/DRK/WAR capitalize short windows.

PLD is my favorite tank because of its core rotation and because its cooldowns fit perfectly into that rotation.

It's concerning that they're going to drastically change the rotation, but even if they do a good job with the new rotation, I hope they keep the job's dependence on cooldowns minimal.

I'm guessing they're going to completely remove the DoT aspect of the kit and dumb down the rotation to the point of being completely unenjoyable - they seem to be hellbent on homogenization and lowering skill floors at the cost of skill ceilings.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

PLD is my favorite tank because of its core rotation and because its cooldowns fit perfectly into that rotation.

It's concerning that they're going to drastically change the rotation, but even if they do a good job with the new rotation, I hope they keep the job's dependence on cooldowns minimal.

I'm guessing they're going to completely remove the DoT aspect of the kit and dumb down the rotation to the point of being completely unenjoyable - they seem to be hellbent on homogenization and lowering skill floors at the cost of skill ceilings.

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Yep unfortunately the team is making the same mistake with classes blizzard did around wod
dumbing down classes and making them homogenized generator-spender classes and boring as hell

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Originally Posted by Martynek

It's the only job left in the game (other than Black Mage, although that particular developer pet goes without saying) that has genuine thought and care put into its design.

Reworking it would be a clear and unambiguous sign to the players of every non-BLM job that they aren't allowed to be different or have fun.

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Good luck.

No-one asked for the WAR or SAM changes either. Hell, people were a lot more vocal about not wanting them than for PLD from what I can tell, and they still just went ahead with them anyway.

So far they've shown they don't really care what the players of the job think. Only what those who don't play a job think. Guess there's a reason why everything is evolving to be a homogenized blob.

I miss shadowbringers so much now, Honestly SHB warrior was really great, I loved PLD the direction they took it in EW was good, (getting strong sustain and more magic, still could use some small improvements but it was a great direction) but because of burst meta now current PLD can't even exist, Jobs like warrior got even more simple... every job plays into 120 windows, Builder spender jobs aren't bad, but it's bad when every tank is going to (likely) be a builder spender now, it's just not fun or good game design.

I've said this again and again I'm all for game balance, But game balance doesn't matter if every job practically plays the same and performs the same function, might aswell just make jobs reskins at that point.

I'm worried, Still hoping the changes aren't going to be that bad... but yeah, recent statements looks like it's going to be something massive...

still is entirely questionable why PLD is even getting this major of a rework, looking around, not many playing PLD was asking for the class to get a major rework, but if anything, they were mostly asking for the class to have more of a consistent Defensive profile and one more self mitigation tool.

a lot of this move came from the devs looking how PLD performed in world races and week 1's-4's and noticed that a lot of tank mains having to move away from playing PLD due to its low damage output.

take a look at every EW raid tier so far as a refrence:
- 6.05: everyone knew that PLD blade's combo was super weak and for some reason it wasn't buffed in time for the savage tier released only for it to be buffed 2 weeks after the tier was released.
- DSRU: literally the class having to map out an entire rotation that is super killtime dependant on each phase for a fraction of damage that WAR, DRK, or even GNB has to do with much less effort needed,
- 6.2: big melee friendly raid hitboxes diminishes balancing between melee jobs and ranged jobs, this downright doesn't stack favorably well for PLD against the other tanks which includes GNB which for some reason they decide to buff the filler upon making bloodfest 2 mins.

not to mention they basically have entirely neglected buffing PLD's melee in favor of buffs only to expaciation, Req, and magic burst. like right now, expaction does the same damage as RA and atonements which has honestly failed to solve any long running issues.

Well I guess we can say summoner was the first to change, and paladin is somewhere in the middle. I expect all other jobs that are not meeting the 2 min burst window are gonna change in time as well.

I think the thing is they could have easily weakened FOF or your melee damage a bit (or something), then buff your general magic rotation more, if they wanted to make Plds fit into bursts a lot more, even if they wanted to make PLD a "burst job" they could have kept its core rotation and skills, I know it sucks either way that they don't want any job to be sustained but at least PLD would play the same.

PLD Drift: They could have just given PLD a Job trait that would synch spell speed with skill speed, this way you wouldn't drift (I'm pretty sure anyway), Theirs also other ways to make current PLD fit under 60/120 windows without completely reworking the Job, So I don't really find the "drift issue" worthy enough of reworking the job, Down time drift might be a Issue with PLD, but I personally found recovery from down time pretty fun myself, thinking on the spot to accommodate your rotation is nice, theirs ways of recovering on PLD.

PLD "BLOAT": I've seen people also say that as PLD's got a lot of actions that they should generally rework it because of that.. Thing is you can generally fix that I found 3 abilities they could "remove", Firstly Shield bash, no one ever uses it (maybe in very niche situations), Holy Circle, rework Holy Spirit to cleave (like confit and other spells), make the animation more big and look better as a bonus, Intervention, Just allow PLD to use Holy Shelltron on allies, give it a 1 second CD so they can use two on you and the other tank for tank busters, practically the same but better, Holy shelltron on allies will mitigate 15%-20% damage instead of blocking, ez we cut down 3 abilities, we could likely cut out more if bloat was a "serious issue" for PLD.

Most my complaints are always going to be on PLD's defensives, I feel like they hold down the job a bit (I know defensives aren't as important as damage, but if a healer had bad healing I'm sure they would complain lol). I'm hoping they do make changes to its defensive kit, but I don't really see it.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

PLD Drift: They could have just given PLD a Job trait that would synch spell speed with skill speed, this way you wouldn't drift (I'm pretty sure anyway), Theirs also other ways to make current PLD fit under 60/120 windows without completely reworking the Job, So I don't really find the "drift issue" worthy enough of reworking the job, Down time drift might be a Issue with PLD, but I personally found recovery from down time pretty fun myself, thinking on the spot to accommodate your rotation is nice, theirs ways of recovering on PLD.

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I worked this out ages ago, but PLD needs ~8% GCD reduction (from base) to fit everything into a 60 second rotation.

Bit too late now.
People dunking on PLD at the launch of 6.2 already sent the message.
They are already committed to it.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I worked this out ages ago, but PLD needs ~8% GCD reduction (from base) to fit everything into a 60 second rotation.

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I'm sure they could find a way to fit it into 60 seconds without completely reworking it, is the main point to be fair I'm no numbers or gcd expert (I think that spell speed is a issue, or plays apart into pld drift).

To be fair it might be easier copying another tank and just going with that but I don't really find that a good solution as PLD's actually got a very different and good rotation, the issue is how it synchs up with other buffs.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Bit too late now.
People dunking on PLD at the launch of 6.2 already sent the message.
They are already committed to it.

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Doesn't mean we shouldn't leave our feedback about it.