Duo Groups for Crystal Conflict

After playing CC since it came out, I still personally enjoy it and seemingly the rest of the community does with the regular amount of people who queue in to play the game mode even four months after its rework. However, my main gripe with the mode is still the fact that I can't queue into the game mode with friends. While I do respect the fact that we have a solo queue as it lets people get to play without the stress of being dominated by a full stack of coordinated players, I still think it's to far in the direction of alienating people who want to play with there friends in this MMO.

While I do think it would be nice to add a full party queue separate from solo que, I don't think SE wants to make two different queues(or technically four if we count them adding it into ranked) as it would separate the player population. I think a much better idea would be to least raise the limit from solo queue to at max a duo queue, essentially a 1-2 player queue. I know other games such as League of Legends have this format implemented to allow for some flexibility of being in a small player group and allowing them to play matches with a friend group while not having a complete overwhelming advantage of being in a large coordinated group. And from what I have heard from the community, they generally think that format is fine due to how flexible it can be.

In short, I think having 1-2 player queue for at least Casual(it can be debated if it should be done for Ranked) would not only be a good middle group for people who want to play with friends vs people who want to only solo que.

I think duo queues should be done for casual and rank.

Big surprise, I don't play "Massively Multiplayer Online" games to sit in an unsocial lobby with 4 strangers I can't interact with.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

I think duo queues should be done for casual and rank.

Big surprise, I don't play "Massively Multiplayer Online" games to sit in an unsocial lobby with 4 strangers I can't interact with.

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That has nothing really to do with it most of those that are pushing this subject are people that stuck in a certain elo.

The idea itself is just flawed for several reasons it would destroy the influence for each soloq player. You would have to suddenly find a stupid balance in which the power of two pre q must be balanced and at the moment does not even work soloq and then you even have an even bigger issue with boosting.

in the end you would have hardly anyone left playing because the problems from the beginning still exist, the bronze being boosted by his top 100 crystal buddy on a smurf and even less influence for the average player and overall just an even worse system.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

That has nothing really to do with it most of those that are pushing this subject are people that stuck in a certain elo.

The idea itself is just flawed for several reasons it would destroy the influence for each soloq player. You would have to suddenly find a stupid balance in which the power of two pre q must be balanced and at the moment does not even work soloq and then you even have an even bigger issue with boosting.

in the end you would have hardly anyone left playing because the problems from the beginning still exist, the bronze being boosted by his top 100 crystal buddy on a smurf and even less influence for the average player and overall just an even worse system.

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Sorry I want to play the game with my friend, not really worried about how solo players feel.

We're both crystal players, by the way. That's the tier we'd like to play in.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Sorry I want to play the game with my friend, not really worried about how solo players feel.

We're both crystal players, by the way. That's the tier we'd like to play in.

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Sure you can have that, outside of soloq for example because you know solo q is solo and so.

I personally don't really care how duoq players feel.

I dont see a problem with it. League has been doing this for a while. Just queue duos against duos, no problem.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

That has nothing really to do with it most of those that are pushing this subject are people that stuck in a certain elo.

The idea itself is just flawed for several reasons it would destroy the influence for each soloq player. You would have to suddenly find a stupid balance in which the power of two pre q must be balanced and at the moment does not even work soloq and then you even have an even bigger issue with boosting.

in the end you would have hardly anyone left playing because the problems from the beginning still exist, the bronze being boosted by his top 100 crystal buddy on a smurf and even less influence for the average player and overall just an even worse system.

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Having Duo Queues I don't think is that big of a landslide of making a fight into a complete stomp on one team, since having only two out of the 5 people on your team with some coordination between each other that isn't quick chat hat isn't putting the other team at as much of a disadvantage, even if there is multiple duo groups on one team. That is why I brought up League of Legends in my example since they have integrated solo/duo into the same queue and I haven't seen anyone say there experience was bad because of it.

League also has a much larger pool of players to pull from and a much more fine-grained and tuned rating system. (Also, aren't they discussing getting rid of Duo specifically?)

It would be devastating to solo queue to mix them, and I don't see group queues pulling enough long-term interest.

If we are allowed to pre-made in any form or format for CC, I will instantly admit this is a "skill" based game. Until then, as long as we are playing Casino PVP this is NoSkill->AllLuck Season.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

League also has a much larger pool of players to pull from and a much more fine-grained and tuned rating system. (Also, aren't they discussing getting rid of Duo specifically?)

It would be devastating to solo queue to mix them, and I don't see group queues pulling enough long-term interest.

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I only used LoL specifically as it's the biggest example of the mix queues, but there other games that have the same format and seemingly do fine with it. And I still think it would be a better alternative to just adding full group queues like they did with Feast. I do agree that if they add the seperate group queue could potentially create population issues, which is why I did think 1-2 player queues would be better since it would least keep the player base in the same queue pool to not completely ruin the queue times.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I only used LoL specifically as it's the biggest example of the mix queues, but there other games that have the same format and seemingly do fine with it.

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Other games do not have the same mechanics, strawman argument burns.

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Originally Posted by Xel

If we are allowed to pre-made in any form or format for CC, I will instantly admit this is a "skill" based game. Until then, as long as we are playing Casino PVP this is NoSkill->AllLuck Season.

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You can't even make it out of Gold while throwing a huge tantrum how it's not ur fault and everybody must be cheating ur a prime example to why this is a bad idea lmao

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I only used LoL specifically as it's the biggest example of the mix queues, but there other games that have the same format and seemingly do fine with it. And I still think it would be a better alternative to just adding full group queues like they did with Feast. I do agree that if they add the seperate group queue could potentially create population issues, which is why I did think 1-2 player queues would be better since it would least keep the player base in the same queue pool to not completely ruin the queue times.

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And they all have extreme amounts of boosting services which goes against the general idea Square seems to be pushing by getting rid of ppl selling content/loot in PF.

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Originally Posted by Xel

Other games do not have the same mechanics, strawman argument burns.

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I want to know what mechanics you are referring to specifically. Is there something special about FFXIV that doesn't allow for 1-2 player queues to be possible?

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

And they all have extreme amounts of boosting services which goes against the general idea Square seems to be pushing by getting rid of ppl selling content/loot in PF.

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By that same logic, we shouldn't have any multiplayer capabilities for things like Savage/Ultimate since people can and still get boosted in that content due to the nature of how the game is setup. And even if there was boosting services, it only really affects the top 500 people who push to do Ranked PvP, which is fine if you want to try and protect the sanctity of that kind of content. However, least having duo queue for Casual would still be a good idea because having the capability to play with friends at the lower end, where a majority of the player base mostly spends there time in, is much more important than trying to create a system to help deal with issues in the cutting edge of ranked.

duo queues should be fine.

Nah. It's fine as it is.
I'm not worried about how a duo queuer feels either.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

By that same logic, we shouldn't have any multiplayer capabilities for things like Savage/Ultimate since people can and still get boosted in that content due to the nature of how the game is setup. And even if there was boosting services, it only really affects the top 500 people who push to do Ranked PvP, which is fine if you want to try and protect the sanctity of that kind of content. However, least having duo queue for Casual would still be a good idea because having the capability to play with friends at the lower end, where a majority of the player base mostly spends there time in, is much more important than trying to create a system to help deal with issues in the cutting edge of ranked.

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And surprise people get boosted in PvE for rewards, now if you use your brain for one second you will notice a severe difference, for example that pve boosting is a closed circle between the boosted and the booster(s) and in pvp you damage 8 other people constantly. I mean I'm glad that it only affects the top 500, because that must mean that there is about 500 PvP players per DC.

Teams for Ranked in general would be a good idea. Imagine queueing up and seeing the same 9 people get matched the same way over and over again, because it's not prime hours and we need to follow some silly job restriction rule(but not really when you see 5 dps vs 1 tank 1 heal 3 dps often).

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

And surprise people get boosted in PvE for rewards, now if you use your brain for one second you will notice a severe difference, for example that pve boosting is a closed circle between the boosted and the booster(s) and in pvp you damage 8 other people constantly. I mean I'm glad that it only affects the top 500, because that must mean that there is about 500 PvP players per DC.

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Its more than just 500 per data center, since you have all the people in top 500 and the rest of the crystal tier players who are trying to place in the top 500. Also you are right about the comparisons of PvE to PvP boosting have two different effects. However, not only would boosting still be ineffective in a 1-2 environment since you still have the factor in the rest of the 3 people on your team, unless you do some match making manipulation to try and get around it but SE already is on that case so I don't think that would be a problem. However, if they were to not allow for a duo group to queue into ranked that would be fine. I mostly just want duo for casual, however having it for ranked would also be cool if they could add it.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Teams for Ranked in general would be a good idea. Imagine queueing up and seeing the same 9 people get matched the same way over and over again, because it's not prime hours and we need to follow some silly job restriction rule(but not really when you see 5 dps vs 1 tank 1 heal 3 dps often).

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I had the same feeling after I remembered that the game still has "PvP Teams" you can make with different players. It functions effectively like a miniature FC/LS where you get notified when a player logs in, but they don't have a purpose outside of just creating a group you'd regularly play with. It could be nice if they were used for a group CC ranked where you'd have your ranking be tied to your PvP team, however at current it just seems like a left over relic pre-6.1.

honestly, duo queues seem fine.

Yeah there used to only be teams, then they made teams and solo. Sometime later the player base dwindled, and they removed teams so as to not divide the potential pool. They were worried about doing just that with CC, but no role lock is so fantastically bad.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

Having Duo Queues I don't think is that big of a landslide of making a fight into a complete stomp on one team, since having only two out of the 5 people on your team with some coordination between each other that isn't quick chat hat isn't putting the other team at as much of a disadvantage, even if there is multiple duo groups on one team. That is why I brought up League of Legends in my example since they have integrated solo/duo into the same queue and I haven't seen anyone say there experience was bad because of it.

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having two high tier dragoons duo together and talking together in discord? yeah they will mess some people up in CC.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

You can't even make it out of Gold while throwing a huge tantrum how it's not ur fault and everybody must be cheating ur a prime example to why this is a bad idea lmao

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"Oh they're stuck in Gold they must be bad and their argument invalid haha get good scrub omega lawl." gtfo of here, you have nothing to contribute to the thread you are a toxic person.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Yeah there used to only be teams, then they made teams and solo. Sometime later the player base dwindled, and they removed teams so as to not divide the potential pool. They were worried about doing just that with CC, but no role lock is so fantastically bad.

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You basically have it right, they use this same format for every small scale PvP mode, aka the Feast and Mahjong. I do get why they only have solos for CC, as to try and keep everyone in the same queue pool since they were afraid of the population count coming off of what PvP was once was. However, since CC overall is just popular enough to sustain it, and like you said having no role requirements means that queue times wouldn't be as bad. I don't think they'd just open the flood gates and add full group queues immediately, however I felt like having a 1-2 player queue would least accommodate the players who want some group play without dividing the player base or creating one sided matches with full premade groups.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

having two high tier dragoons duo together and talking together in discord? yeah they will mess some people up in CC.

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Disregarding the fact that you can't class stack in CC to begin with, even having two high burst dmg classes like NIN/DRG trying to focus down one target wouldn't really be a huge issue as it currently stands, as that is something that already happens in the game with random with a small semblance of recognizing when to focus on a target. Which even then there is counterplay to these kind of attacks, which again already exist within the game on both a casual/ranked level.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

Disregarding the fact that you can't class stack in CC to begin with, even having two high burst dmg classes like NIN/DRG trying to focus down one target wouldn't really be a huge issue as it currently stands, as that is something that already happens in the game with random with a small semblance of recognizing when to focus on a target. Which even then there is counterplay to these kind of attacks, which again already exist within the game on both a casual/ranked level.

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my point still stands however, that duos with a friend would put you on a higher playing field then those who don't.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

I only used LoL specifically as it's the biggest example of the mix queues, but there other games that have the same format and seemingly do fine with it. And I still think it would be a better alternative to just adding full group queues like they did with Feast. I do agree that if they add the seperate group queue could potentially create population issues, which is why I did think 1-2 player queues would be better since it would least keep the player base in the same queue pool to not completely ruin the queue times.

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The problem is that at the first sign of pressure, it's going to be your solo queues that leave first. You might ask, how can I be so sure?, to which I reply: have you read these forums lately? The presence of a handful of early cheaters was enough to turn S1 into a 'cheaters are the entire reason I'm stuck in Bronze and lose every game I'm in' party for months. In this very thread we've got people who firmly believe that the entire reason they can't escape Gold is RNG. Give them a threat like duos and lord, we will never hear the end of it.

But also, unlike the tongue-in-cheek examples, it's not a purely hypothetical threat. The majority of LBs in this mode become exponentially more dangerous with teamwork. This is why much of the skill of this mode is literally just a) learning to communicate your intentions to your group and b) learning to read the intentions of your party in turn. A number of LB+LB combinations are straight up instant team fight wins with little to no counterplay if the timing is right. CC synchronization is rage inducing enough in solos, you want to open the door to choose-two BRD/BLM/RDM/MNK 10s 100-to-0 death trains? A motivated and skilled duo is much, much, much more than the sum of its parts in a rocket tag game mode like this.

It works in other games, but this isn't other games. I just can't see a path to viability for a team queue system outside of tightly controlled competitive environments - bundle it in with solo, and it'll just kill solo off.

After reading a lot of heart felt and well informed responses in this thread, I'd like to revisit my original position.

Duo queues are fine.

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Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

After reading a lot of heart felt and well informed responses in this thread, I'd like to revisit my original position.

Duo queues are fine.

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https://i.imgur.com/70PFXR2.png

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Originally Posted by Sindele

https://i.imgur.com/70PFXR2.png

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I mean, when you're right, you're right, and I'm right, you know?

But I hear you, I understand where you're coming from, so I will add...

Adding duo queues would be fine.

Duo queues would be fine.

I play an MMO to play with my friends.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

But also, unlike the tongue-in-cheek examples, it's not a purely hypothetical threat. The majority of LBs in this mode become exponentially more dangerous with teamwork. This is why much of the skill of this mode is literally just a) learning to communicate your intentions to your group and b) learning to read the intentions of your party in turn. A number of LB+LB combinations are straight up instant team fight wins with little to no counterplay if the timing is right. CC synchronization is rage inducing enough in solos, you want to open the door to choose-two BRD/BLM/RDM/MNK 10s 100-to-0 death trains? A motivated and skilled duo is much, much, much more than the sum of its parts in a rocket tag game mode like this.

It works in other games, but this isn't other games. I just can't see a path to viability for a team queue system outside of tightly controlled competitive environments - bundle it in with solo, and it'll just kill solo off.

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The LB combo issue is probably the more consistent issue that would happen, and I would agree it would be annoying. However, I honestly don't think a large majority of people who would queue duo, especially for casual, would try and abuse the combo. Not sayin git wouldn't happen, but at worst there would be duos that would do that. However at best, it opens the door for a lot more people to come in and try PvP when they have the capability to queue in with a friend, which I think benefits a larger majority of people than it actually hurts.

If there usage of using of LB combos and coordinated duos harms or the community is that angered by the existence of solo queues, which I don't think it would be that big of an issue since people will complain about anything no matter how big or little of an issue. An easier, and debatably better solution, would be to just create a separate full group/flex queue to let people queue in a group while leaving solo queue as a separate thing. I think the only reason we don't have this now is just the split in player population since PvP was feared to not be as popular as SE thought it would be. However, I think it is popular enough to sustain two different queues and not hurt the existing queue times. I am open to whatever idea would benefit people overall, as at the end of the day I just wish to play with my friends in CC. However I believe 1-2 player queue could potentially be the easiest way to introduce a group queue into the game.

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Originally Posted by Astralrisk

The LB combo issue is probably the more consistent issue that would happen, and I would agree it would be annoying. However, I honestly don't think a large majority of people who would queue duo, especially for casual, would try and abuse the combo. Not sayin git wouldn't happen, but at worst there would be duos that would do that. However at best, it opens the door for a lot more people to come in and try PvP when they have the capability to queue in with a friend, which I think benefits a larger majority of people than it actually hurts.

If there usage of using of LB combos and coordinated duos harms or the community is that angered by the existence of solo queues, which I don't think it would be that big of an issue since people will complain about anything no matter how big or little of an issue. An easier, and debatably better solution, would be to just create a separate full group/flex queue to let people queue in a group while leaving solo queue as a separate thing. I think the only reason we don't have this now is just the split in player population since PvP was feared to not be as popular as SE thought it would be. However, I think it is popular enough to sustain two different queues and not hurt the existing queue times. I am open to whatever idea would benefit people overall, as at the end of the day I just wish to play with my friends in CC. However I believe 1-2 player queue could potentially be the easiest way to introduce a group queue into the game.

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Wasting two ults on one person to kill them isn't really effective.

Furthermore, experience players do this anyway.

FURTHERMORE, people have been abusing the queue at same time gamble to get in on the same side. People are already taking advantage of it.

You may as well just implement the mechanic so that the system can balance teams around it.

Add in like a flex queue separate from solo queue so there's no whining shitstorm about "MUH GAME INTEGRITY!! YOU CAN'T COMMUNICATE EFFECTIVELY WITH YOUR TEAMMATES REEEEE!1" so those who want to play with their friends can go in as however many stacks they want while those that want to extend e-peens get their solo queue. Everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

It works in other games, but this isn't other games. I just can't see a path to viability for a team queue system outside of tightly controlled competitive environments - bundle it in with solo, and it'll just kill solo off.

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The fact that teamwork, in a team based mode, is broken for said mode, shows there's a much bigger problem here. Imo, it's due to lack of defensive options. This is pretty much always the problem with PvP in MMOs. They either have little to no defensive options or too much. If they balanced the core gameplay via a simple rock paper scissors system, the mode would be much better. But that would require another rework, so at the least they should just look into adding more defense, specifically to CCs.

I have returned to give my insight on the situation and to admit, I was wrong. I'd like to change my position.

Duo queue would be fine and people already abuse the queue mechanic to get into the same games.

Sorry for the confusion.