Woops! I bought the wrong item. (Too bad.)

Hello!

Have you ever gotten your weekly cap of 450 tomestones and got excited to buy that sweet ring. Only to get too excited too quick and bought the earring, instead, because the icon looks like a ring?

If you are in this group, like me, you wish there was something that can be done about it. A simple suggestion: Item buyback.

The way WoW did it, back in ye olden days, when you bought an item from a vendor with a limited currency, you had two hours to trade it back for a full refund. Now... this came with an exploit: renting. A player could "rent" the item for raid, for temporary benefits. When the raid, or 2 hours were up, they could sell it back.

In FFXIV, right now, when you sell an item to a vendor, you can only buy back the item until you leave that zone. Why not use that simpler-to-implement logic, here, too? You can only sell back the item for a refund until you leave the zone.

That would defeat the renting problem. Is it perfect? No. Are there more complex, but better solutions? Absolutely. Could there be rough back-end problems? Probably. Granting the limited currency could interact badly with the weekly cap logic.

I think having something is better than nothing, and it would be totally worth it. As a wise person once said: "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

-Data

If all you ever learn from this game is that mistakes can have consequences that cannot always be undone,
then you will have learned a lesson that will serve you well in real life.

"Be careful out there."

Oh, I get it. And It is one I won't likely make again.
However, making a person wait a whole week (or more) to fix their mistake is a bit much, especially in the savage raiding scene.

This is why you check the weekly tome accessories first before you get em lol

Look, I get it. I made a mistake. Let's please keep this thread civil and not a let's-berate-data-for-his-silly-mistake thread.
I knew I wanted the ring, but clicked the earring by mistake because the icons looked visibly similar.

I know I am not the only person making these kinds of mistakes out there.
A game being more forgiving of these mistakes is not pandering to anyone; it's objectively a better state.

I would be happy to discuss any critiques to my suggestion or another resolution, entirely.

You're asking the devs to implement a whole new system in the game just because you screwed up.

• Dev resources aren't free.
• Investing them in creating a system just for careless screw-ups (e.g., you) means not having those resources to implement desirable features for everyone else.
• You're the only one who should pay for your mistake.

So ... NO.

A refund system has been brought up many times in the past but it doesn't appear to be something the developers are interested in implementing, at least for now.

I would question the belief that buying an earring instead of a ring will be the difference between success and failure in Savage. though. The difference in stats between the two is tiny (assuming you're referring to the fending accessories). If your static is having issues, I doubt that swapping an earring for a ring is going to be a noticeable improvement.

I don't see any problem with having an item buy-back option. We have it on retainers and some vendors so why not on the Tome Gear vendors too? Those long lists of gear can get very confusing.
It would be very helpful to anyone with sight issues or dyslexia (one of the main reasons given when it was requested before) and if you're someone who never makes a mistake, it won't impact you.

As to the argument that the present system teaches you to be more careful, I'm not convinced it does, but I don't think game-systems should be designed to teach you 'valuable life-lessons' anyway. I find life quite capable of handing those out on a fairly regular basis, so I feel no need to get them from the game as well.
I play games for escapism and anything that makes playing easier and more fun without having a negative impact on other players, deserves to be considered.

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Originally Posted by Datachanger

Could there be rough back-end problems? Probably. Granting the limited currency could interact badly with the weekly cap logic.

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If i had to take a guess, this right here might be the culprit. Exchanging a token(like from the raids or an ex totem) for an item probly works fine in reverse - items and tokens both go in your inventory, and you exchange one for the other. There are often weekly earning limits, but those seem(but who really knows) programmed into the instance as a switch that gets toggled off later on in the patch cycle. So the token itself wouldnt care if you got more then one, the instance just isnt allowed to give you more. But with the capped tomes, any source of them you approach during the week goes to the same limit. Did khloe offer you some? No you dont get extra, you just dont have to earn as many to cap. Hunt train? Daily roulettes? Varient dungeons(most likely)? Its all filling up the same 450 count. Theres a way to make the game see a refund as different then being granted tomes, but if it was an easy fix it likely might have been added ages ago. I dont think ive ever heard a dev interview where they said they were opposed to the idea of a refund for buying the wrong item, but they havent implemented one for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I would question the belief that buying an earring instead of a ring will be the difference between success and failure in Savage. though. The difference in stats between the two is tiny (assuming you're referring to the fending accessories). If your static is having issues, I doubt that swapping an earring for a ring is going to be a noticeable improvement.

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You would be right to question this! It's definitely not a hindrance to my team's progression. We even made a record amount of progression for week 1, so I am very happy with my team right now.
It more stems from the fact that it takes n weeks to get BiS, and that process is annoyingly gated by tomes. Making n = n + 1 just compounds the annoyance, especially when its your own dang fault.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

As to the argument that the present system teaches you to be more careful, I'm not convinced it does, but I don't think game-systems should be designed to teach you 'valuable life-lessons' anyway. I find life quite capable of handing those out on a fairly regular basis, so I feel no need to get them from the game as well.
I play games for escapism and anything that makes playing easier and more fun without having a negative impact on other players, deserves to be considered.

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Thank you very much for understanding. <3

Isn't there a confirmation window when you buy tomestone gear?

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Isn't there a confirmation window when you buy tomestone gear?

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Yes, but let's be realistic. We get flooded with so many confirmation windows in the game they lose their meaning. After so many repetitions, we start to automatically click through them just to get them out of the way. That's normal human reaction. Can you truthfully say you read every confirmation window in full every time you get one before clicking to proceed?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Yes, but let's be realistic. We get flooded with so many confirmation windows in the game they lose their meaning. After so many repetitions, we start to automatically click through them just to get them out of the way. That's normal human reaction. Can you truthfully say you read every confirmation window in full every time you get one before clicking to proceed?

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If the confirmation window is something I've seen a million times before and has no negative consequences for a potential misclick then no, I typically don't read it every time. But when it's something I could potentially F up then yes, I read the warning to confirm I'm not making a mistake.

I wouldn't mind at all if they implemented something like the WoW system OP mentions, but do I think it's a bit silly to add such a system just because people can't be bothered to spend the extra second it takes to read a single sentence.

Considering the attention to detail needed during raids to be successful, it shouldn't be much to ask the same attention to detail when interacting with an NPC to buy that which you need to succeed in raids.

Mistakes happen. It isn't like it isn't fixable. It just isn't fixable... today.

Of course mistakes happen. And yes, sometimes we need to deal with them and move on (like now).
However, this discussion is around a feature request for a feature that has existed in other games (WoW) since 2009.
If I am to be a bit critical, I would think after so long we'd have better item restoration/sellback features in the most (second most?) popular MMO of this time.

Yoshi P has said they refer out to other games for ideas of what to do (and what not to do). One of the niceties of WoW (so I have heard from others who still play it) is their item sell back and restoration features.
WoW will let you restore 50 items automatically, but in FFXIV, you can only restore one (through a GM). It seems to be one of the things WoW does better that SE could learn from.

People seem to like to shut down the idea of quality of life changes don't they? It's something that should be standard for an mmo in 2022 but FFXIV is always playing catch up when it comes to little things like this.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Considering the attention to detail needed during raids to be successful, it shouldn't be much to ask the same attention to detail when interacting with an NPC to buy that which you need to succeed in raids.

Mistakes happen. It isn't like it isn't fixable. It just isn't fixable... today.

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Such a change wouldn't affect only those who raid. It would affect more casual players as well.

You could argue they don't need that gear in the first place (at least not right away, eventually ilvls for MSQ content will increase) but it's still something they want to have.

I'm a bit divided about whether it's really needed but it falls to the side of need considering saturation of confirmation windows and the design of those windows.

I've brought up in the past how the confirmation windows for gear purchases needs a redesign to reduce the chance for an item to be purchased in error. Change the design so you have a first line of "Confirm you wish to purchase the following item, a second line in larger font with the item name and icon, then the yes no. Remove the initial "You cannot currently equip this item, do you still wish to purchase it?" advance prompt and have the text of the item name in the confirmation change based on whether it can be equipped by current job (green), equipped by another job that's at the appropriate level (blue) or currently unable to equip on any job (red) - probably could also use some sort of symbol for those who are color blind such as check mark for can currently equip, plus symbol for will be able to equip and X for cannot equip.

That removes one layer of excess confirmation windows we're currently subjected to (frequently mentally tuned out because we expect to get it if we're buying for a different job) and the larger font plus color brings attention to the item about to be purchased so the player is less likely to make an error.

Make that change (or something similar) and the need for a refund period may disappear.

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Originally Posted by Refs

People seem to like to shut down the idea of quality of life changes don't they?

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All changes cost developer resources - a finite resource.
Therefore, people often oppose changes they think are unnecessary or that (even worse) dumb down the game.

This proposal is trying to idiot-proof the buying process for some gear.
Any idiot knows that's impossible -- there's always a bigger idiot.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

This proposal is trying to idiot-proof the buying process for some gear.
Any idiot knows that's impossible -- there's always a bigger idiot.

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Or, we could look at it another way and say this proposal is trying to bring FFXIV into line with it's main competitor (sounds nicer, I think).

I'm sure this isn't going to be an unsub issue for many people, but having played since HW, I have seen many quality of life measures brought in as the game gained popularity. None of them cost us a raid tier and I am sure many players would be:
A) Amazed they weren't in the game right from the start
and
B) Totally opposed to having them withdrawn

As I said in my earlier post, this would be helpful to people with sight issues or dyslexia. With a closely spaced list of similar items it's easy to get confused, especially if you don't process text in quite the same way as the majority.

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Originally Posted by Refs

People seem to like to shut down the idea of quality of life changes don't they?

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FF14 players love it. It's their big opportunity to argue or talk down to someone.

Quite a lot of changes the playerbase have strongly argued against when suggested, are actually implemented in the game now and no one has any complaint about it.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Or, we could look at it another way and say this proposal is trying to bring FFXIV into line with it's main competitor (sounds nicer, I think).

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"Let's emulate other games even though they aren't as popular or profitable as ours" seems like a bad business strategy.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

"Let's emulate other games even though they aren't as popular or profitable as ours" seems like a bad business strategy.

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Just because a game isn't as popular or profitable doesn't mean it doesn't have a few good design elements worth adopting.

Adding a return/refund system isn't going to suddenly cause FFXIV the player base to dry and profits to disappear.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Adding a return/refund system isn't going to suddenly cause FFXIV the player base to dry and profits to disappear.

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You're being absurd; that's not the issue, it's a strawman of your own making.

This issue is: is there a decent ROI on the developer resources spent?
That is, is the subscriber base and/or revenue likely to increase as a result of adding this feature? And if so, is that increase likely to be larger than if the resources had been used to implement something else?

I seriously doubt this is the case: the presence or absence of this feature seems unlikely to affect many people's decision to subscribe or to continue their subscription, or to in any other way spend time or money on the game. Spending the same resources to add more high heeled shoes (such as for fem Vieras) likely has a higher ROI.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

You're being absurd; that's not the issue, it's a strawman of your own making.

This issue is: is there a decent ROI on the developer resources spent?
That is, is the subscriber base and/or revenue likely to increase as a result of adding this feature? And if so, is that increase likely to be larger than if the resources had been used to implement something else?

I seriously doubt this is the case: the presence or absence of this feature seems unlikely to affect many people's decision to subscribe or to continue their subscription, or to in any other way spend time or money on the game. Spending the same resources to add more high heeled shoes (such as for fem Vieras) likely has a higher ROI.

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You're the one who started it with the random "emulating less popular games seems like bad business strategy".

There's a lot of stuff developers do that are unlikely to affect subscription decisions and yet get done anyways. Were players going to quit if they didn't add Adventurer Plates? No. Was the game suddenly going to attract a lot of new players who didn't want to play in the past solely because Adventurer Plates didn't exist? No. Yet SE did it anyway.

Sometimes the best investments are the goodwill gestures done in response to customer requests, like adding in refund systems. Happy customers tend to be loyal customers who bring in more customers. Customers beset with all sorts of small inconveniences are less likely to refer others they know to a product and many times are all too happy to move on when a "best next thing" shows up.

We don't know how much it would cost SE to implement a refund system tied to the tomestone vendors nor how many GM tickets/complaints they get related to the lack. It's probably better not to presume it's not a good investment when there are other games that have decided it was a good investment. In the end, it's SE's decision to make, not ours.

I've done this before (before the game tracked if you had any or not) and learned quickly to "Search for Item" before purchasing. It was one of those "Well, $%!*, I'd better pay attention from now on." moments, for sure.

The worst was having the full lvl 60 Poetics set except the earring and getting it, forgetting that I had Memphina's Earring... Thankfully it was just Poetics gear.

It's all good, I needed to put a swap request in because someone at SE hates dyslexics and not ONLY did they decide to rename several of the upgrade materials bought with books... they also called them:
Moonshine Brine...
Moonshine Twine.....
Moonshine Shine.......

2 of the 15 characters are different... not going to have ANY POTENTIAL PROBLEMS THERE!

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Remove the initial "You cannot currently equip this item, do you still wish to purchase it?" advance prompt and have the text of the item name in the confirmation change based on whether it can be equipped by current job (green), equipped by another job that's at the appropriate level (blue) or currently unable to equip on any job (red) - probably could also use some sort of symbol for those who are color blind such as check mark for can currently equip, plus symbol for will be able to equip and X for cannot equip.

That removes one layer of excess confirmation windows we're currently subjected to (frequently mentally tuned out because we expect to get it if we're buying for a different job) and the larger font plus color brings attention to the item about to be purchased so the player is less likely to make an error.

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I kinda like this idea as a good middle ground if the code pasta is too thick to allow a refund of a limited currency.
While the accessibility (as you indicated) may need a little polish, I think the idea of a different confirmation popup for limited currency purchases makes sense.

However.... Where would we draw the line?

• The current capped tome (Causality as of writing this) get the popup? Absolutely.
• The savage book vendor? Mhm!
• The normal raid gear token vendor? Most likely.
• Should the uncapped tome (Astronomy as of writing this) get the popup? Probably...?
• ...What about last tier's uncapped tome (now purchasable for nuts)? Ehh... maybe? Probably not.
• Poetic gear? I think most would say no (me included). ...But I vividly remember being upset 3 years ago for buying the wrong gobcoat for upgrading my lvl 60 tome gear.

This list could go on, but it does pose an interesting design question. What do you all think?


EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Sometimes the best investments are the goodwill gestures done in response to customer requests, like adding in refund systems. Happy customers tend to be loyal customers who bring in more customers. Customers beset with all sorts of small inconveniences are less likely to refer others they know to a product and many times are all too happy to move on when a "best next thing" shows up.

We don't know how much it would cost SE to implement a refund system tied to the tomestone vendors nor how many GM tickets/complaints they get related to the lack. It's probably better not to presume it's not a good investment when there are other games that have decided it was a good investment. In the end, it's SE's decision to make, not ours.

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Brilliantly said.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

You're asking the devs to implement a whole new system in the game just because you screwed up.

• Dev resources aren't free.
• Investing them in creating a system just for careless screw-ups (e.g., you) means not having those resources to implement desirable features for everyone else.
• You're the only one who should pay for your mistake.

So ... NO.

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It's just a simple quality of life suggestion for us mere mortals. Chill out, please.