4-man variants for endgame content going forward?

First, huge props to Yoshi-P for the decision to finally introduce high-end 4-man content for the game.

Not only is it easier to group up into a static of 4 likeminded individuals instead of 8, it's also way easier to organize with friends IRL. Heck, I might actually be able to try out this content with just my real-life friends (the people I actually want to play with) which would be a hugely positive factor going forward.

Now for my main point: I can't speak for everyone, of course, but if the 4-man endgame content we get now ends up being popular, I'd personally love to see some of the current/incoming 8-man content get 4-man versions as well. Allowing for the completion of EX/Savage content with just 4 players would be an amazing step up in accessibility for the endgame combat portion of the game, and I hope something like that will be possible somewhere down the line.

What does everyone think? Let's hear your thoughts!

I agree that it's easier to find, work with and schedule 3 good player friends than it is 7.

I think if they are challenging enough, it will benefit 8-person raiding because criterion savage statics can merge up in party finder to tackle regular extreme and savage.

I must say I'm not a fan of the idea.

Having content for groups of 4 is great news, and I welcome it for the same reasons as you. But I do appreciate that the endgame content is well categorized; and in my opinion, it's normal to have instances that are only accessible to certain people. Here, those who make the effort to set up and participate in fixed roosters, which requires a certain investment.

And it is out of respect for this investment, which people like you and me are not ready to make (< absolutely not a problem, just an observation) that we should keep these instances reserved for groups of 8.

The other concern I see with the idea is that one of the main difficulties of savages is coordination. Many groups don't get clean not because the individual player doesn't know the mechanics, but because the group doesn't work together. And this "coordination" aspect is strongly lost in groups of 4, since it is a priori easier to function with 3 other players than with 7 others. Minimizing the importance of coordination in high-level instances would be the equivalent of denaturing them in my opinion.

Heck yeah lets go!

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

I must say I'm not a fan of the idea.

*snip*

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I can definitely see your point about working together and communicating as a team. However...

I honestly can't agree with the other point you make. No offense meant by this, but to me it just sounds like you'd want to monopolize certain types of content solely for certain types of people. I can't agree with that sentiment at all, and while I hope to never in my life use the term "ableist" to advance an argument, I do think it would be absolutely fair (and not to forget financially smart) to allow smaller groups to tackle endgame raiding content as well.

All opinions are welcome though. Just responding to yours with my own ;)

I would think the sweet spot for some harder content would be like 12-16 players, it will allow for slightly more variation in team compositions and mechanic design, while not going all the way to the alliance/eureka/bozja level of mess. Sadly the party UI isn't really designed for that.

4 players is great to reduce the bar of getting in, but it will most likely end up having to deal with simpler team mechanics and having most of the responsibility fall onto the single healer. DPS are balanced around the 8 people content anyway so some of the might struggle reaching the DPS checks which basically means those will either be super lenient or so hard that you have to bring spesific Jobs. Tanking will be completely brain dead unless there's insane amount of enemy positioning through the fights because there's no swaps among other stuff for 4man.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

but it will most likely end up having to deal with simpler team mechanics

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This is really the key point right here. At level raid content is quite literally mechanically designed around the number of bodies on the field. You reduce the number of players, you reduce the complexity. If they were to do something like that they would basically have to create two completely different versions of the same raid, which would obviously lead to less content for everyone across the board.

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Originally Posted by Wind-Krysvein

I can definitely see your point about working together and communicating as a team. However...

I honestly can't agree with the other point you make. No offense meant by this, but to me it just sounds like you'd want to monopolize certain types of content solely for certain types of people. I can't agree with that sentiment at all, and while I hope to never in my life use the term "ableist" to advance an argument, I do think it would be absolutely fair (and not to forget financially smart) to allow smaller groups to tackle endgame raiding content as well.

All opinions are welcome though. Just responding to yours with my own ;)

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I'm glad someone else noticed this.

I can respect the idea and opinion that 4 man content won't be as difficult as 8 man content due to the fact that there's less people to coordinate with(tanks/healers for instance won't have to coordinate with a double at all). The other part of what that person is saying though is literally gatekeeping.

For reference:

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

I must say I'm not a fan of the idea.

Having content for groups of 4 is great news, and I welcome it for the same reasons as you. But I do appreciate that the endgame content is well categorized; and in my opinion, it's normal to have instances that are only accessible to certain people. Here, those who make the effort to set up and participate in fixed roosters, which requires a certain investment.

And it is out of respect for this investment, which people like you and me are not ready to make (< absolutely not a problem, just an observation) that we should keep these instances reserved for groups of 8.

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Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I'm glad someone else noticed this.

I can respect the idea and opinion that 4 man content won't be as difficult as 8 man content due to the fact that there's less people to coordinate with(tanks/healers for instance won't have to coordinate with a double at all). The other part of what that person is saying though is literally gatekeeping.

For reference:


Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

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It's not gatekeeping. Complexity of fights inherintly drops the less people there are to do mechanics/meet dps checks.

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Originally Posted by Wind-Krysvein

Now for my main point: I can't speak for everyone, of course, but if the 4-man endgame content we get now ends up being popular, I'd personally love to see some of the current/incoming 8-man content get 4-man versions as well. Allowing for the completion of EX/Savage content with just 4 players would be an amazing step up in accessibility for the endgame combat portion of the game, and I hope something like that will be possible somewhere down the line.

What does everyone think? Let's hear your thoughts!

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I don't see this interacting with the 8-man savage tier. I do see this becoming a replacement for exploration content. Eureka and Bozja were interesting. I found the latter to be an improvement. However, when the population died down, they were forced to make some changes. We saw the content get scaled in such a way that 4, sometimes fewer people could engage it. People have been asking for harder dungeon content for a long time. It only made sense that they try going this route, which not only offers that same engaging content, but also ends up preserving a space like Bozja to see continued use.

I'm excited to see what they've prepared. I hope it's something they continue to do going forward.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's not gatekeeping. Complexity of fights inherintly drops the less people there are to do mechanics/meet dps checks.

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You have 6,000 post count, have been playing since 2011 and you have no idea how to read. You have my sympathies :/


I already acknowledged that portion of what that person said. What you failed to notice is that they also made it clear that they felt that unless you were willing to commit to becoming a part of a roster and essentially spending excess time with that roster for the purpose of completing harder content then you have no business playing said content.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

You have 6,000 post count, have been playing since 2011 and you have no idea how to read. You have my sympathies :/


I already acknowledged that portion of what that person said. What you failed to notice is that they also made it clear that they felt that unless you were willing to commit to becoming a part of a roster and essentially spending excess time with that roster for the purpose of completing harder content then you have no business playing said content.

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IDK why they were talking about respect, I was simply commenting on the other aspect of it. You wouldnt get the same rewards, nor should you, in a 4 man version of an EX or savage fight, because it would inherently be easier. With that being the case, the amount of dev time required to make it work for no real reward makes it kind of pointless. And PF exists for people who cant commit to specifc times.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I'm glad someone else noticed this.

I can respect the idea and opinion that 4 man content won't be as difficult as 8 man content due to the fact that there's less people to coordinate with(tanks/healers for instance won't have to coordinate with a double at all). The other part of what that person is saying though is literally gatekeeping.

For reference:


Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

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I (honestly) don't understand people's reluctance about not making everything accessible. It's been several times that my interventions on this subject make people react; and without pretending to be right on all levels (fortunately!), I generally don't understand the counter-arguments on this precise point.

All considerations about the game itself aside (which is hard to do, because it's simply inseparable), it seems normal to me that a person investing more in a game... well, has more things at his disposal. The effort invested is greater, so the reward should be as well. Maybe the disagreement comes from the fact that I tend to see the combat itself as a reward, rather than the loot at the end?

The only exception I would tend to make, here, would be the story; and there I agree with both of you completely. This is a type of content that should be accessible to all.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Tell me how this isn't gatekeeping content behind the idea that it should be reserved for only those who are willing to invest even more time outside of the actual content?

Why can't we just learn the content, jump into a group and do our thing?

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8 man content is not gatekept behind having a fixed group like PotD and HoH are, for example. We are perfectly capable of making a PF group for any raid. Completing it is another matter.

There’s a variety of content in the game. Some is single player only, some give you 1-4 freedom like PotD and HoH, then you have 4, 8 and 24 ppl content (and a few other variations) and it is fine like that, there is something for everyone in there and they each come with a different level and type of challenges. The addition of the Criterion dungeons is a new and welcome option. It is not gatekeeping. Different new content > rehashed content.


Making current Savage raids available to groups of 4 would probably make it even more difficult to find 8 people groups as it is much easier to partner with a few friends to kill content than forming, gearing and maintaining a static of 8. It would also defeat the purpose of having to work in coordination with a group of 8 to beat a boss. Just create a PF with your friends if a real static is not possible.

If the new dungeons are really savage level difficulty but for 4 people, I believe that groups of 4 will be more exclusive and people will from closed groups with friends only making it less accessible. If done with randos, it will certainly lead to more bitching if someone weaker joins as it will prevent any progress (we will have to see how they are tuned...the only way to keep the difficulty with 4 is to leave even less room for error). In a group of 8, having a dps that is a bit behind is generally not a problem.

Needed skill is gatekeeping ? 8-Man content is not gated except for skill - you have it or you dont and thats ok. We should people give a chance but the outcome can't be same if the necessary skill is diffrent. Lesser people = lesser difficulty=lesser rewards. Not gatekeeping, its skill you need. My Opinion.

I don’t think they need 4 man versions. They are called ‘extreme’ ‘savage’ ‘ultimate’. If you invest the time you get rewarded in the feeling of beating it and rewards. All the arr-shb ex can be unsynced if you just want the items. Its not going to be content made for everyone and you have to accept that. There is other content for everyone though.

And for the people calling others who disagree gatekeeepers and ableist. Just stop. You not being able to do harder content is not that at all. You make yourself look silly using them as an argument.

I like content like this, I've had the same 3 friends for about 8 years now. I don't do many stuff that requires 8 people. But this sounds nice

Keep Savage and EX as is.

We get new stuffs for mythic plus dungeons.

More 'new' content I like more then just changing current content. If this make sense?

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Originally Posted by Nyxs

And for the people calling others who disagree gatekeeepers and ableist. Just stop. You not being able to do harder content is not that at all. You make yourself look silly using them as an argument.

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Thank you ; I didn't really understood those remarks, specially the "ableist" one.

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Originally Posted by Wind-Krysvein

I can definitely see your point about working together and communicating as a team. However...

I honestly can't agree with the other point you make. No offense meant by this, but to me it just sounds like you'd want to monopolize certain types of content solely for certain types of people. I can't agree with that sentiment at all, and while I hope to never in my life use the term "ableist" to advance an argument, I do think it would be absolutely fair (and not to forget financially smart) to allow smaller groups to tackle endgame raiding content as well.

All opinions are welcome though. Just responding to yours with my own ;)

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by the same token, arent you wanting to monopolize the content for groups of 4 who dont want to work with larger groups or even randoms? or even the latest push towards basically a solo experience is monopolizing the content for those that dont wish to group at all.

I'm puzzled. Is the OP thinking that harder 4-man content will invalidate 8-mans we have?

I don't think... Especially because Variant dungeons is coming in a .x5 patch, so it's not direct competition with raids.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I'm puzzled. Is the OP thinking that harder 4-man content will invalidate 8-mans we have?

I don't think... Especially because Variant dungeons is coming in a .x5 patch, so it's not direct competition with raids.

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Yep, from whats been mentioned the savage version of the dungeon it could very well need the high end gear from savage raids and aug tome gear throughly beat, so definitely wont invalidate.