Double shield healer is an issue now?

Hi o/
Little back story.
I've been farming the new Ex with my friend, he's a Sch main and I like to Sage with him.
We heal super well together and compliment eachother, never had any issues, don't overlap our shields, no wipes because of lack of healing.
When **** hits the fan its a Sage/Sch prob and not a do mechanics properly issue..
I've noticed that lately one of us is being asked to switch to WHM or AST.
It had happened several evenings already since 6.2, while its never been a issue on the other 3 Extremes.
Has anyone else experience issues with this?

SGE and SCH is a perfectly fine combo.
The only shields that clash are the Eukrasian ones, and SGE has some decent regens and the damage reduction compliments SCH's shields.
The only shortfall might be where your pure healing capabilities come into play, but that's more to do with how well you coordinate.

I don't personally do EX, but I've heard the issue with this is that the shields don't stack, so half of your effective healing is wasted.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

When **** hits the fan its a Sage/Sch prob and not a do mechanics properly issue..
I've noticed that lately one of us is being asked to switch to WHM or AST.

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tbh, it sounds like a case of people looking for something other than themselves to blame, but SCH/SGE would have the least recovery capability of any of the 6 combos (but can still do it just fine if done carefully)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

SGE and SCH is a perfectly fine combo.
The only shields that clash are the Eukrasian ones, and SGE has some decent regens and the damage reduction compliments SCH's shields.
The only shortfall might be where your pure healing capabilities come into play, but that's more to do with how well you coordinate.

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This is also where one of the fewest uses for Pepsis seems to exist. Since you can pop your Eukrasian shields into HP as SGE before the SCH heals.

It's a shame Emergency Tactics doesn't work with Succor though. Then SCH would be able to do the same thing.

I think it's best for the Scholar to only use their emergency tactics gcd heals if needed and let sage be the one that uses their gcd shields as they can turn them into pure healing after if you still need to top off ppl. But other than that, they should be perfectly fine, you have more burst healing than you might think between Idom, Blessing, Holos, Ixo/Pnevma.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

I don't personally do EX, but I've heard the issue with this is that the shields don't stack, so half of your effective healing is wasted.

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Most shields do stack actually.
Maybe thats the misconseption a lot of people have.
Only Succor and Eukrasia flatout overwrite eachother, so I never use it when i'm healing with him.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Most shields do stack actually.
Maybe thats the misconseption a lot of people have.
Only Succor and Eukrasia flatout overwrite eachother, so I never use it when i'm healing with him.

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That would seem to be the case because I've heard that sentiment echoed multiple times in-game.

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

I think it's best for the Scholar to only use their emergency tactics gcd heals if needed and let sage be the one that uses their gcd shields as they can turn them into pure healing after if you still need to top off ppl.

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Thats a good suggestion :)
But the problems seem to start before we even go in and show them we heal just fine together :p
Maybe we've just been unlucky last couple of farm nights..

If shit is hitting the fan in an ex or above then someone has messed up, that’s not a problem of your healer comp, double shields is a fan gastric comp because the two synergise amazingly with each other

Recovery throughput is about their only weakness but it can be done and remember if you need this massive recovery throughput the team shouldn’t be messing up

SGE/SCH is amazing on the new EX (and in general really), but players are just misinformed. SE has strongly implied that healers should be "barrier + pure" and they blindly trust the developer even if you offer proof that they're wrong.

This is nothing new or unique to this patch. This is the same thing as AST's switching to Noct in the past when playing with a WHM in easier content, groups insisting on "no doubles" when they don't even use or need early lb3, groups insisting on 2 melee and so on. There are certain things the general playerbase gets stuck in their heads and refuses to change their mind on.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I've noticed that lately one of us is being asked to switch to WHM or AST.
It had happened several evenings already since 6.2, while its never been a issue on the other 3 Extremes.
Has anyone else experience issues with this?

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People had always been asking that before this patch, you just never seen it before. The same people would also ask that question if they see a double regen. It's simply the assumption that 2 of the same type doesn't work very hell - which is a correct assumption. However, the heal ceiling for most content is so low that it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

People had always been asking that before this patch, you just never seen it before. The same people would also ask that question if they see a double regen. It's simply the assumption that 2 of the same type doesn't work very hell - which is a correct assumption. However, the heal ceiling for most content is so low that it doesn't matter.

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Double regen doesn’t work well, double shield is basically the strongest combo from a healing perspective and second strongest from a DPS perspective

The regen healers are just underpowered

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

People had always been asking that before this patch, you just never seen it before. The same people would also ask that question if they see a double regen. It's simply the assumption that 2 of the same type doesn't work very hell - which is a correct assumption. However, the heal ceiling for most content is so low that it doesn't matter.

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I've been playing since 2013 and farmed multiple extremes until I had 99 tokens, and never saw it being brought up.
Thats why I think its so weird I've been asked several times now to switch.

Or flatout got kicked for it :p

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Double regen doesn’t work well, double shield is basically the strongest combo from a healing perspective and second strongest from a DPS perspective

The regen healers are just underpowered

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First, how thing appears on paper doesn't necessary translate to how it is. I had run double regen and double shield and they're about the same. Sure, one may have less "raw" number, but if the "required" number is way below that anyway, that point is essentially moot.


Second, as long as you have a good group and the 2 healers coordinate, anything work, and double shield is indeed probably the best in term of efficiency and overheal. But that's not the context here. Taking the average skill of PF into consideration, a normal shield+gen combo is still the best choice in term of safety and return, and it works out of box without the 2 healers have to coordinate.

A heavily modded plane would probably be amazing in the hand of an experience pilot, but someone who just got of flyschool would probably want to stick with a stock configuration.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I've been playing since 2013 and farmed multiple extremes until I had 99 tokens, and never saw it being brought up.
Thats why I think its so weird I've been asked several times now to switch.

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Like I said, I had seen it a few time. But to fair most of them are just a question, and everyone is ok as long as they healers said "it's ok". I have never seen anyone insist on it in the manner of "change or you get kicked".

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

I don't personally do EX, but I've heard the issue with this is that the shields don't stack, so half of your effective healing is wasted.

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Correct, but those are GCD shields. SGE has to use another move to access them, otherwise its AoE heal is just a heal. So the issues rarely, if ever, come up, as nothing else in their kits has that issue. And in most 8 man content, you shouldn't need to GCD heal outside of Pneuma (DPS neutral with a huge heal on SGE) or untargetable boss downtime before a big hit, so the issues almost never come up.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

First, how thing appears on paper doesn't necessary translate to how it is. I had run double regen and double shield and they're about the same. Sure, one may have less "raw" number, but if the "required" number is way below that anyway, that point is essentially moot.


Second, as long as you have a good group and the 2 healers coordinate, anything work, and double shield is indeed probably the best in term of efficiency and overheal. But that's not the context here. Taking the average skill of PF into consideration, a normal shield+gen combo is still the best choice in term of safety and return, and it works out of box without the 2 healers have to coordinate.

A heavily modded plane would probably be amazing in the hand of an experience pilot, but someone who just got of flyschool would probably want to stick with a stock configuration.

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If your PF needs so much healing you need a regen healer to be spamming GCD recovery tools constantly that a shield healer cannot compensate for then you are in a trap party, you simple do not need that much healing in any content (even DSR which is disgustingly difficult on double regen but barely feels harder than savage on double shield)

This is especially considering it’s an EX, double shield throughput far exceeds what is needed for even an EX gone wrong and mitigation is king in high end content

I agree in upper savage floors you need to know what you are doing to get the best benefit out of double shields but in EX the problem is certainly the team not the healers

In this specific fight people tend to die right before the 4x double stack, so more people die, or us the healers.
While I agree its harder to recover from that while being Sch/Sage, if I would have been Ast we wouldn't have miraculously been able to save them though it.

Its easy to blame the healers though I guess.
See it as a heal issue instead of a don't stand in the bad all the time..

Although I do personally set the slots to Pure Healer and Shield Healer, I believe that all healers can be played as pure healers, because I play SCH as a pure healer and rarely use my shields. SCH has access to plenty of regens and pure heals that can be combined to match what pure healers are doing (SGE is the same since most of its abilities have the same overall effect).

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Correct, but those are GCD shields. SGE has to use another move to access them, otherwise its AoE heal is just a heal. So the issues rarely, if ever, come up, as nothing else in their kits has that issue. And in most 8 man content, you shouldn't need to GCD heal outside of Pneuma (DPS neutral with a huge heal on SGE) or untargetable boss downtime before a big hit, so the issues almost never come up.

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Thanks for the clarification. I main AST and not as aware of those particular synergies.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If your PF needs so much healing you need a regen healer to be spamming GCD recovery tools constantly that a shield healer cannot compensate for

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Where did I say that?

Tbh I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to argue here, given I already said this in my first post: "However, the heal ceiling for most content is so low that it doesn't matter. "

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then you are in a trap party,

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Like 50% + the PF are?

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you simple do not need that much healing in any content (even DSR which is disgustingly difficult on double regen but barely feels harder than savage on double shield)

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I already know DSR was cleared by a solo AST, and my friend group had gotten pretty far into it as a double shield. So I'm already aware ...

Again, if you want to be correct on the "technical" points, I already gave it to you. But I'm not "technically speaking", I'm stating reality.

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in EX the problem is certainly the team not the healers

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Which is exactly my point. I play on 4 char, only the main is in a static. The reality of PF is you're better off with a standard comp in PF, regardless of what the finer technical detail is. Am I saying you "must" have it? No. I'm just saying it's a safer bet. I think people who say "you don't need this or that unless the party is bad and shit hit the fan" missed the point .... Well, guess how often your party is bad and shit hit the fan in PF?

SCH/SGE is a perfectly viable combination, though the SGE does need to be aware not to clobber the SCH's shields. (As you note.) But, I mean... if I'm casting Eukrasian shields, we're probably in free-fall as a party regardless. Given the plethora of non-shield mitigations, regen options, and outright incoming-healing buffs that apply even to the other healer in SGE's kit -- to say nothing of things like Haima and Panhaima which do stack -- in the hands of a duo who are in sync, SGE and SCH go together like peanut butter and jelly. Tasty, tasty peanut butter.

(...crap, I skipped lunch due to that work meeting, didn't I.)

ANYWAY. That notwithstanding, there are a lot of SGE players out there who do just blindly overwrite SCH shields, so a lot of PF parties have trust issues where that's concerned -- or just blindly parrot the "must have one barrier healer and one regen healer" mindset. And the new extreme does have a higher healing requirement than the previous three, so folks are probably being more aware of healers in party composition.

Tbh, if the players are failing so many mechanics because they think you get a khloe sticker per stack of vuln and are speedrunning to attempt a 3 lines book handin from that single pull alone, then there is a siginificantly bigger issue in that party that goes beyond the scope of healing.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

This is also where one of the fewest uses for Pepsis seems to exist. Since you can pop your Eukrasian shields into HP as SGE before the SCH heals.

It's a shame Emergency Tactics doesn't work with Succor though. Then SCH would be able to do the same thing.

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What on earth are you talking about? Succor works just fine with Emergency Tactics. It's probably the best "pure" group heal SCH has (coupled with Recitation)

Please don't give misinformation about jobs you don't play to new people.

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SCH/SGE works just fine. My first EX.4 clear (twice) was that combo, as is my present static. If anything it's hilariously funny to watch tankbusters and heavy raidwides deal 0 damage as they hit your shields. There is a level of coordination that's required to do the combo well, but that's true of anything for higher-end content.

Generally when I'm with a SGE, I find myself focusing more on recovery over mitigation (since SCH has more on-demand heals and a regen on soil, while SGE has more mobility in their AoE mit). With an AST or WHM it's reversed (I focus on shielding/mitting damage more, they focus on recovery)

The "must have pure + shield healer" is complete nonsense.
SGE/ SCH is an insanely strong comp and not just in optimized settings or "in theory". This isn't about theory vs reality, it's about reality, period.

SGE and SCH work beautifully together; their combined mitigation can ensure survival even with several vuln stacks going around and it's not that hard to say "SGE uses single target GCD shields, SCH uses aoe GCD shields". That's basically all the coordination you need and every monkey can do that. I struggle to even call that "coordination" because it's like one tank asking the other if they want to MT or OT.
But people keep spewing this nonsense that "but you need regens" when SGE has one strong regen + mitigation on 30s and one strong regen + heal buff on 60s. That's more than WHM and AST bring combined. SGE is basically your regen healer with mitigation and shields slapped on top of it and a burst heal lazor for good measure. Panhaima + Kera single-handedly deletes a tumult if there is some other mitigation like Reprisal or Samba up as well.

SGE has unlimited EDiag for quick spot healing if someone ate extra/ has stacks and while it's a dps loss it's not only faster but also more likely to save someone than a Benefic II/ Cure II. Haima easily deletes the dot if someone got knocked into the wall/ yeeted back into the circle or autos if they got aggro after tank died and it's not like you need it anywhere else; not even if tanks don't mitigate because you have 2 constant auto heals from Embrace and Kardia.
SCH makes up for the one weakness that SGE has with their fairy, which is a lack if displaced healing. They can both recover just fine and are not behind AST and WHM unless you simply ignore your toolkit.

If you have 2 healers that mindlessly spam their GCD heals instead of using oGCDs then yes, you'll have problems. But taking the absolute worst possible type of player and use it to spin it into a "bad comp, not reliable, bad recovery, nos suited for PF" is a stretch to put it mildly.

Of all the Ex parties I had, healing with another shield healer was always the smoothest experience simply because there is so much mitigation that it's next to impossible to ever "fall behind" and experience emergencies.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Although I do personally set the slots to Pure Healer and Shield Healer

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I will admit I do the same, but mostly because if I don't and you have a SGE and SCH, a frankly unfortunate number of people will join and go "Oh, two shield healers" and then leave again.

As I said in my earlier post, I think SGE/SCH is not only viable but has incredible synergy when used right... but I'm only willing to swim against the current so far when I just want a PF to fill. :/

Sage and Scholar are fine together. DSR was cleared with a sage and scholar comp fairly early on so I'm pretty sure it's viable.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

It's a shame Emergency Tactics doesn't work with Succor though. Then SCH would be able to do the same thing.

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:confused: As a SCH I have to say that you are incorrect on this. Emergency Tactics does increase the healing on Succor.

In a coordinated setting, SGE/SCH is fine as long as they know when to GCD shield (since SCH has super strong adlo deployment and SGE has instant cast shields). The biggest plus side is the huge amount of mitigation and shielding, and SGE has noticeable pure healing as well.

However in a pf settings, it’s not uncommon to see pf locking one pure healer and one barrier healer. Chances are if random SGE and SCH joining, they are gonna overwrite each other shields a lot.

The only downside of SCH/SGE is their conflicting GCD shields (how many times do we even use them anyway...#lolsomuchfreeheals) & probably emergencies options. But since you've stated your co-healer is your friend, by this information it should be easier for you to communicate with them to avoid screwing one another and synergies the rest of the kits wonderfully. Heck it's even the strongest compo to date.

In PF you can decide who's get to GCD shield (usually it's the SCH) but just like being with any randoms, sometimes it just doesn't work that way because trust issues so it's more common to see folks lock the two slots to regen+barrier to save confusions.

Whoever blamed you and your friend though are probably just looking for something to blame. If they need that much 'rescuing' then I highly doubt it's a healer composition issue.