The idea of having expert recpies is good idea, and having relics tied to them back in shb was fun.
However, the way they decided to do the Otter Water Foutain stuff isnt. (Fun is subjective though, so if its fun for you as it is, thats good)
With the removal of Pliant and a thershold that's only 120 off 100%, you've pretty much got to pray to Byregot that your rapids and hasties dont mess up a lot, as you dont have the chance to save cp on manipulations and waste nots.
Surely theres got to be a better way to add difficulty to expert recipes, without having to rely heavily on rng abilities to even be able to do the craft?
I think it would be better if they kept pliant, but added negative versions of the condtions. Something like:
Bad: Decreases to quality are 1.5x less effective than normal
Displaced: Decreases action success by 25%
Delicate: Increases loss of durability by 50%
Unyeilding: Decreases to progress are 1.5x less effective than normal
Unfit: Next status granted by an action will last two fewer steps
Taut: Increases cp cost by 50%
Although there would still be rng, it feels like it wouldn't be as bad if they made the recpie doable with not having to rly on rng abilites as much, and instead of forcing players to thinking what to use and when.
On the bright side, at least they added a raid where we can beat Byregot up for the bad rng.
I just needed to vent, as im salty about barely having any success apart from 1 close attempt.(All my luck gets used up on Rapid Synths)
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08-29-2022, 09:54 AMAizawa_kExpert Recipies 6.2, Heavy Rng Isnt Difficulty, It's Annoying
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08-29-2022, 11:19 AMCaimie_Tsukino
Personally, I don't find Hasty Touch to be so much of a problem. Hasty Touch has a 60% success rate, and I mostly do it on either Sturdy or Centered. So if it blow up on Sturdy, it doesn't hurt very much, and on Centered it usually succeeds.
I do echo the fact that it's very heavily relying on Rapid Syn though. The fact that we usually need Vene to buff our Rapid Syn, and we're forced to "spam" Rapid Syn when Vene is active, will sometimes result in a streak of failed actions. And such a streak of failed Rapids will kill the craft. Every time when Vene is active, I pray that Centered will appear. But even when we use Rapid on Centered, it can still fail sometimes, and all these are just terrible.
I think Centered should be buffed by another 5%. This will help with Hasty Touches, but more importantly, it's to help out with Rapid Syn, especially when it's under Vene buff.
Also, Malleable needs to slightly buff progress action success rate. Currently, it's pretty useless since we mostly just do Rapid Syn for the entire craft, and it's just a plain 50/50 chance of success on Malleable. Currently, I feel like over 50% of the Malleable condition is wasted on failed Rapid Syn.
These changes will increase the chances of Rapid Syn and Hasty Touch successes without breaking the game. And when this happens, people will learn to use Centered and Malleable properly... hence, a bit more skill-oriented rather than pure RNG-oriented.
On the good side, the fact that only a handful of crafters are capable of crafting these at an acceptable success rate, and the fact that we can now sell these items on the MB certainly warrant some credits.
While the MB is being flooded by the easy i610 and prices are plummeting each day due to the vicious undercutting war, some of us can comfortably sell these Water Otter Fountain components on the MB with handsome profits.
Many crafters had been complaining about how endgame crafter is no longer profitable due to things on the MB are too easy to make. Well, now SE gave us this Water Otter Fountain as an answer. If you're good enough, you can make good gil with it. -
08-29-2022, 12:15 PMAizawa_k
Do you use anything other than hasty at all? As im mainly using it to try to get to the 10k mark whilst hoping to have at least 75cp left to finish for gs and blessing. But i seem to end up with with 3-6 fails for hasty touch a time before it works once or twice.
Yeah "centred" seems to do barely anything to rapid synth, and its annoying when it does keep failing leaving you with a screwed up craft. Your buff ideas are pretty good ideas, and probably a lot better than dumping negative conditions into the fold.
Definietly, its pretty amazing that people can craft these recpies enough to make money off.
But it does suck when you aren't looking to make to sell but to just to unlock the permit, but are constantly getting screwed by the rng.
Yeah crafting is pretty easy now, and there doesnt feel like theres a step up at all from normal crafts to master crafts, just the same rotation but longer really.
I think my main annoyance comes from the idea that you have to do stressful content to unlock something on the relaxing content, i would of suggested a similar threshold system like there was with the relics like in shb as that way you dont get punished for bad rng as much, you just got to make more.
But your point about gil making makes sense, and would be ruined with that idea. -
08-29-2022, 04:47 PMCaimie_TsukinoI use Hasties only when building up IQ stacks. When I'm at IQ8, and if Heart & Soul is available, I'll usually use it to "jump" to IQ10. If I am already at IQ9, then sometimes I'd just Obs+FocT to get to IQ10. At max IQ10, I'll transition into "touch combo" instead of Hasties to bait for Goods for quality leveraging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizawa_k
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08-29-2022, 07:06 PMdspguy
I think the real shock to the system with this particular brand of expert recipes stems from the lack of difficulty with every other facet of crafting. HQs are assured as long as you follow a certain script. Equip yourself with certain gear. Meld that gear a certain way. HQ a few of the intermediate steps (alkahests for example). Use your crafting abilities in a certain order, ignoring crafting states with clever use of Tricks of the Trade, and you will have a guaranteed HQ item.
The Water Otter Fountain parts turns that all on its head. You can't just follow a script to assure success every time. You can't just ignore condition states like you are used to doing. You can't necessarily focus on all progress (minus 1 step) and then quality since all those Malleable conditions might as well be normal.
You have to not only learn to embrace these conditions and how best to use them but also learn to embrace failure. You will fail. And you will fail a lot when you first try.
I used food and draught for a few hours just running Trial Synthesis before I found a "formula" that was moderately successful. Of course, it is RNG dependent. There is only so much you can do against bad RNG. However, if the lack of assured success on a given synth is going to be your barrier, then this isn't for you. And not every facet of the game is for everybody. -
08-30-2022, 02:42 AMJojoya
RNG + excessive gear requirements are really the only way to add difficulty to something that is effectively a math puzzle. Even your idea of using negative conditions instead of good ones is a form of RNG that would end up equally frustrating if they occurred as often as the positive conditions we currently have.
The important thing to remember is that not achieving a 100% success rate is not failure. SE doesn't intend for us to have 100% success with them at this point.
Right now, Rapid Synth success seems to make or break the craft for me. I wish we were allowed to use mods to do things like track action success/failure because I definitely feel like my Rapid Synth success rate is closer to 30% than 50% but I don't want to have to manually go back through my chat log to count. -
08-30-2022, 08:39 AMCaimie_TsukinoQuote:
Originally Posted by dspguy
I agree with what you said 100%! You can't be afraid to fail these crafts. It is bound to happen! I am botching so many right now that I lost count already. I don't even know if my success rate is really around 50% anymore, or is it more like 40 or 60%. Of course, we can't just blindly say "it is all RNG!" and just blindly mash button. That will make the success rate be as low as 0 to 5%. But even with all our tinkling "crafting senses", we are still failing in mad numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
It's almost as if SE gave us a "Savage Raid", where people are bound to wipe many times before succeeding. Here, we're bound to botch crafts. And as you said, we gotta embrace it. However, the difference is that, in Savage Raid, the more you train with mechanics, the better you get, and your success rate will increase. Here, most of us are already quite well-trained with the crafting mechanics, and yet our success rate still remains quite low due to RNG.
Yeah, same here. This is why I suggested to buff Centered condition by 5%, and also increase progress action success rate for Malleable. That won't change anything for people who blindly Rapid Syn spam. But it will be a game changer for people who make good use of conditions for Rapid Syn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
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08-30-2022, 12:52 PMCaimie_Tsukino
I'm getting soooooooooooooo many craft at >12500 but <13500,
I just need a place to RANT & SHOUT!!! This seems like a good place! ARGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!! >_<
https://i.imgur.com/zyVxZXa.jpg
This is the worst I've had... missed by 8 quality... 8 quality!!!
https://i.imgur.com/69mbL60.jpg -
08-31-2022, 06:33 PMAizawa_k
I would upload a picture, but im not sure how to.
But, I've managed to make 2 sets of the lumber and bolts ^^
It was annoying all hell, but managed to make them in the end!
Just need to get the fsh glioaether now for the last 2 resin :D -
08-31-2022, 07:13 PMAquatic
Would anyone be willing to share their rotation?
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08-31-2022, 11:33 PMdspguyIt would make Malleable too strong if the Rapid Synthesis success rate was bumped anything north of 75%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
If Rapid Synthesis does "2 units of Progress" normally at a 50% rate - it is worth 1 unit
Rapid Synthesis with Centered (75% rate) is worth 1.5 units
Rapid Synthesis with Malleable (assumed 75% rate) would do 50% more, which is 2.25 units
I think they'd have to consider scaling it back. Imagine if it was stacked with Veneration and Muscle Memory? The synth's progress would be half done 75% of the time if one of these landed. As opposed to just 50% under current mechanics. -
09-01-2022, 03:09 AMBuuhuu
I don't mind the RNG too much, honestly. What I am salty about is that they keep forcing stats for those crafts instead of using "recommend" stats again and you can't even use trial synth without reaching those thresholds. But hey, at least we have the first expert craft item, which is useful.
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09-01-2022, 04:56 AMDrWho2010there is no set "rotation". you have to progress the craft really based on the conditions you're given in each step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic
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09-02-2022, 08:46 AMNanaWilohThis rant is approved by the "Little rant corporation of Lala Lala Eorzea"Quote:
Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino
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09-02-2022, 03:26 PMstrawberria
Perhaps SE can look into adding quality bonuses to Malleable and/or implementing the 'detriment' qualities suggested earlier. This entire craft is basically coinflipping rapid synthesis and then spamming for the quality section, there's not really much 'skill' involved...
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09-02-2022, 10:40 PMdspguyOnly if you allow it to be like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberria
Imagine if we played a coinflipping game. You get 1000 points if it is heads or 0 points if it is tails. That would surely be a boring coinflipping game. But, what if we rolled a 6-sided die before that where the sides correlated to the crafting conditions:
- Normal: 1000 points 50% of the time (if it lands on heads, aka if Rapid Synthesis lands) = 500 average points
- Good: 800 points 100% of the time (Intensive Synthesis) = 800 average points
- Malleable: 1500 points 50% of the time = 750 average points
- Sturdy: 1000 points 50% of the time, but it only counts a half a turn = ~750 points
- Primed: 1000 points 50% of the time *** = 500 average points
- Centered: 1000 points 75% of the time = 750 average points
If we are forced to play this game, Primed and Normal are not very good states to play the coinflipping game.
So... don't.
Don't push progress if there's no benefit to doing so. Besides, you'd want to use Manipulation for Primed.
The idea is, only play the coinflipping game when either the coin is weighted in your favor (Centered or Sturdy, when the cost of the game is halved) or when the points for winning are in your favor (Malleable or Good if you choose Intensive Synthesis).
You can also raise the stakes of the game by using Muscle Memory and Veneration. Now it is coinflipping game where the stakes look more like this:
A 100 point bonus for just entering (Muscle Memory gives about 600 points, which is 100 more than an average Rapid Synthesis
- Normal: 2500 points with a 50% chance = 1250 average points
- Good: 2000 with a 100% chance (Intensive) = 2000 average points
- Malleable: 3000 points with a 50% chance = 1500 average points
- Sturdy: 2500 with a 50% chance (at half cost) = 1250 average points
- Centered: 2500 with a 75% chance = 1875 average points
Or the "jackpot": Malleable and Intensive Synthesis (Using Heart and Soul): 3000 average points
And the best part is... you can choose which coinflip to take (if at all). The moment I see Malleable, I commonly pop H&S and use Intensive Synthesis. With my craftsmanship, this puts me at around 3750 which is 50% of my progress right there. -
09-03-2022, 04:55 AMJojoyaYou might be surprised how much skill is involved. Most players would make incorrect choices and fail over and over because they're used to just running macros they looked up online. They don't entirely understand the actions they're using or have the ability to foresee a decision's potential impact on outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberria
Except I don't always want to do that. If I have 3 stacks left on my current Manipulation, it makes no sense to use it because I'm giving up 3 stacks to get only 2 extra. Depending on status of progress and IQ stacks, I might want that Primed for Veneration or Innovation instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by dspguy
But you're right that it's not a simple coin-flipping game. We've got some ability to influence outcome thanks to the conditions and we want to use it to our favor. -
09-03-2022, 05:46 AMCaimie_TsukinoI keep telling everyone that this is the incorrect concept. If they think Expert Recipes are "entirely RNG", they are bound to fail, because their success rate will be between 0 to 5%.Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberria
For instance, as I mentioned in one of my posts earlier, there's absolute NO WAY for anyone to max out the quality bar if they just spam touches. The only way to do it is by "leveraging".
E.g. if you spend 18 CP on Innov, and then spam Prudent Touches (100% efficiency), each of your touches will end up around 700-ish quality (let's say 726), therefore 2904 after spamming 4x under Innov (118 CP spent, and 20 durab consumed). By contrast, if you use a Precise Touch (150% efficiency) on a Good condition to substitute a Prudent, it'll be ~1034 quality x 1.5 = 1551 quality. Now if we add a Great Strides before that, then a single GS + Innov + Precise Touch combo will gain ~2722 quality (68 CP spent, 10 durab consumed). If we used a Prep Touch instead of Precise Touch, it'll be ~3600 quality (90 CP spent, 20 durab consumed). The result is much more than just 2904 quality.
Now you'd say, what's the chance that you can line up a GS, Innov and get a Good there? Well, not much. But if you don't try, you will never get it. Also, think about the flexibility you have... e.g. if you set up GS, and the popped, you can already use Precise Touch to capitalize some leveraging power. Alternatively, if you perform GS, Innov, Observe, you now have 3 steps to bait for the Good instead of just 2 steps. Now even if you fail in getting any Good, you'd be using a Focus Touch (150% efficiency), which is much better than a 100% efficiency touch. Lastly, imagine getting Primed after GS, then your Innov would gain 2 extra steps. Now you can actually perform your baiting actions TWICE within 1 Innov! Even if the Primed appears BEFORE your GS, you can capitalize it by setting up Innov first, before activating GS. You'd still gain 1 extra step of Innov in the end, which allows you to perform your baiting actions TWICE within the Innov.
With a strategy like this, one has a much higher chance of gaining extra quality comparing to someone who simply spam touches after Innovation. This is what I meant by "leveraging". -
10-08-2022, 11:29 PMLiam_Harper
I finally got round to trying these properly (was burnt out after Ishgard) and I have to say (purely opinion and I don't think I'm "right" on this) it was a rather miserable experience.
I made them fine, overall success rate was well over half so about what I'd expect starting out. Easy gil. But it felt like it was too much rng and a dash of skill. Like, the formula is fairly straightforward once you figure it out, Vene/Rapid opener, Primed on Manip or Inno, good procs mostly on Precise. WN is bad. Build your quality (observe for conditions and hasty, or prudent, both work). Reach 10 IQ, go for some touch combos, Focused being strong because it condition digs.
So once you have your basic plan down, there's is little bit of skill and decision making in low durability, odd strings of conditions and such that does matter ...and a big dose of reliance or variance on Rapids and decent procs.
Grumbles aside I think Experts are a great idea, but I have a deep hatred for Rapid Synth and Hasty and Malleable is a rubbish condition after the opener. I still feel like they could tone down the rng some while still making the crafts as difficult. Having some crafts botch due to 8 failed Rapids is an illusion of difficulty. -
10-09-2022, 11:17 AMdspguy
So, I actually found myself using WN sometimes if Primed popped up while I already have Manipulation active. I found my greatest success when I wound up in a situation where my IQ stacks were 9+ and I could manage a Basic/Standard/Advanced Touch combo. With a Primed WN, I could fit two of those at a cost of 30 durability and 108 CP. I don't have my calculator. That's something like 3600 quality. Tack on another 3700 from BB (without a good condition) and that pegs the goal closer to 6200.
When I figure out my strategy I work backwards from what I know can work and then try and bridge the gap with RNG that works in my favor (Centered for example). -
10-10-2022, 10:39 PMLiam_Harper
I've used WN on occasion, sometimes it's even the correct pick and does well, but in general it takes away your flexibility to adapt to procs.
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10-11-2022, 06:27 PMJojoyaI find a Primed WN work wells below 5 IQ stacks when decisions are fairly straight forward. It's even prevented me from wasting a proc when I've had a string of procs that otherwise would have taken my durability to 10 and forced me to waste at least one of the procs to restore some durability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
Once past 5 IQ stacks, I generally avoid it. I don't want it active once I reach 10 stacks and options open up. -
10-17-2022, 11:55 AMCaimie_TsukinoThis little post here deserves more LIKES! I took your suggestion here, and found it to be pretty useful sometimes. Having vene/manip/WN up for Rapid Syn spam is a totally valid move. One can afford a bunch of fails and still be alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jojoya
To be more specific, I only use WN on primed when Manip has 3 or more steps, vene has 3 or more steps, and progress/IQ is still low. I allow myself to waste 1 step of WN if need to refresh vene. But I don't allow myself to waste more than 1 step. Otherwise the WN would not be worth it. -
10-28-2022, 07:09 AMThe_Distinguished_AnarchistThis is basically Expert Crafts in a nutshell right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizawa_k
If you don't get favorable conditions when you need them, and your Rapids and Hastys fail, then no amount of skill will save the craft.
The only thing you can do is minimize your risk but your success is ultimately a dice roll, and there's no skill involved in rolling a die properly. -
10-29-2022, 04:37 AMdspguy
I started working backwards from my non-good state Byregot's to figure out what I need to not have to rely on a "good" to finish. I haven't run these recipes in a while, so my numbers might be a bit off.
Let's say an Innovation/Great Strides BB = 3500. That means I need 10000 in quality to finish. Depending on how my craft is going, there are times when my last burst of quality before BB comes from a chain of Basic/Standard/Advanced touches. If I land those with Innovation on, that's about 2700. So, now that's 7300 to finish. I used to keep a pad next to my keyboard that counted roughly the number of hasty touches I needed to get to 7300. It wasn't an exact science, but eventually I got to a point where I'd know if I was "ahead" or "behind" in my luck. It isn't like we can Reclaim anymore to save the synth and start again. So, you just keep going the best you can.
My main problem with relying on that good is that the odds are not all that great, but better than nothing. Let's say there is a 10% chance of getting a good on any given step. That's only a 27% (or roughly 1 in 4) chance of a good showing up when you need it. If you happen to have a little extra CP, you might stretch that to 40% by using Observe twice.
With the way our gear is right now, I feel like many synths come down to relying on that "good" to finish. Probably when the next set of crafter gear comes out, this will be easier (not easy).