SE, please fix Dancer.

I dunno the reasoning why Dancer's range had to be nerfed into the ground. But every time I come back to PvP, I'm reminded what a joke DNC is to play now.

Everything capped at 15 yards, with a single 25y action. It's beyond ridiculous. There's no reason why Dancer has to be so close to melee jobs, when melee jobs are all getting longer range actions to pull off.

Before PvP 2.0, DNC was fun to play and actually a ranged job. When now it's like it is being pushed towards being more melee oriented.

But dnc was from 5.0. But you make it sounds like dnc has be here since begin of Ffxiv XD.
Anyways what is the problem with 15y anyways when melee going to come to you anyway and at same time dnc is the only one with 4 charge of dash and best mobility compare to another range dps who all require target to perform.
Also to be fair FFXIV dev team never good pvp with all balance and server tick issue. So is actually good they try to change it with every expansion now.

I'm talking PvP 2.0. When they redid the entire thing and gave us an unbalanced mess that they are since trying to fix all the screwups on.

And 15y is BS on a ranged job when melee jobs are getting stuff with 20-25y.

DNC is literally awful now. Before they did all these changes to push CC as the new big PvP thing, DNC was in a really good place. It wasn't super powerful or broken, like they did with a lot of jobs after the 2.0 shift.

Now, unlike Bard and Machinist which got to keep their range, Dancers are forced to get even closer to melee enemies, and get ganked by their ranged actions in the process.

There is something seriously wrong when a melee job can hit you before you get inside the range to even use your own basic attacks. BRD/MCH don't suffer from this, because their attacks have a proper range on them.

Couple this with the garbage targeting from using controllers (which means it's very hard to actually focus on specific classes in a general melee) and you end up getting hit much more often. It's easier to let the auto-target grab whatever is closest to you and attack it, regardless of whether it's a primary target in PvP or not. Because in the time it takes you to cycle targets with controller, you're dead because they are so close.

Most who play DNC that I've spoken with hate the range nerf we were given. Someone literally hadn't played DNC until today, since the CC changes were made, and the first thing they asked was what had SE done to DNC to break it like this.

Case in point, I'm not even a strong PvP player. But with DNC from the previous system, I could manage 6-10 kills in a Frontline, 0 deaths, and a few dozen assists without much trouble. But with the range changes and all that? Not managing any kills, and the only reason I survive is by staying out of range for most of it, with no real attacking going on because if I get close, I'm dead.

It was my go to job for pvp... right after the changes i left it - but it sucks, they nerfed my rdm again and again >_>

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Originally Posted by Sawamura

4 charge of dash and best mobility

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Another of the many problems with the new Dnc is that the dash is no longer a movement skill (free to choose when to use), but an inconvenient requirement in the pve-like rotation to deal damage (big damage increase for Fountain/Cascade + allow to use Saber Dance).

Dnc is one of the worst change in this globally awful pvp update.

Cause it makes so much sense to just dash forward and get even closer to your enemies to use your best skills.

Dancer was just destroyed with this setup. And they show no signs of fixing it at all.

I understand DNC has issue.However just want to point of few thing.
1:Melee and tank all only has 1-3 charge of 20y dash in and LB from melee is 20y charge time is depend on job. (Though dev team should change LB gauge only gain by action instead of overtime. So melee/tank has no 25y ability. However there is netcode/server tick problem so you can blame on that but that is equal problem to all) Also with XIV pvp set up like this melee/tank almost has no chance to catch dnc who has none casttime at 25y if all dnc attack is 25y. So 15y of dnc is where it come from and pvp has balance issue.
2: BRD and MCH has 1 cast time and few without casttime cd. However BRD and MCH escape tool is much weaker than dnc.
3: Melee come to you can still escape or run to you teammate in CC. Well in Frontline if you get kill/attack is mostly you problem with position or too late to back off. So remember let melee and tank dash in first and XIV pvp is team battle.
4: Everyone has target issue.
5: Frontline If you couldn't get kill the problem wasn't cause dnc 15y. But patch 6.1 smns muti same time LB and 6.18 damage taken reduction.

Dancer has Starfall Dance. 25y, once every 20 seconds. That's it. Everything else is either 0y or 15y. Like said, most of it is charging recklessly at enemies to try to pull of stronger attacks. It's a joke.

Monk gets Thunderclap, 20y to rush to an enemy or ally. Monk LB, Meteodrive, is a 20y attack that rushes target to damage them.
Reaper gets Death Warrant, 25y, once every 20 seconds. They hit you with it, they get Harvest Moon. An AoE that also has a range of 25y, gets a boost of damage from the Death Warrant.
Samurai gets Hissatsu: Soten, a 20y attack every 10 seconds.

Ninja gets Fuma Shuriken, a 25y every 10 seconds. Three Mudra, every 15s, turns that into Hyosho Ranryu, another 25y ranged with high potency. Mug has 5y, but with Three Mudra, every 15s it becomes Goka Mekkyaku, another 25y ranged attack AoE. Three Mudra turns the combo into Forked Ready, a 20y rush attack that grants Fleeting Ready. That grants another 20y stunner.

Tell me again about how Dancer needs it's range nerfed, when all these "melee" jobs, especially Ninja, are getting stacked with stuff with an even greater range?? Saying they have no 25y ability is a joke. They get plenty of range in their moves and there is literally no reason why Dancer should ever have such a crap range as it got.

Get rid of the En Avant nonsense and work out something better. Most would rather not have that, or our moves tied into it. Because others aren't tied to dashing about. We're dancers, not runners.

The reason DNC has shorter range is because it does not have charged filler skill and because it has dashes. That's the reason. You can disagree with it, but that's is the reason why. If you are okay with DNC having dashes removed and the filler combo having a cast time then you can get your increased range. But at that point, why not just play MCH or BRD?

Because I like Dancer? And I'd rather have less dashes and more range. I'm all for it. 15y is a joke. Anyone who plays Dancer agrees with that. At least everyone I've ever spoken to. Only those who don't play Dancer don't care one way or another.

honesty they should buff Rdps range in general.

However that only apply with ninja and also ninja will only attack you if you are in bad position in CC/frontline cause by Ninja self is harmless and always ready to run away if they fail to kill target. So if you are position self good no nin will come to harm you.

Rpr death warrant + harvest moon only 6k damage from 25y it would be very stupid of rpr if he use death warrant at 25y cause it require more hit for more damage and Tenebrae Lemurum LB fear is 10y and Communio is 25y + end their LB and rpr has almost no chance to catch up a dnc with 1 hell's ingress and animation delay. If a rpr start chase you can start laugh at them. Cause there is no way they can catch you even with heavy on If you get fear from LB is you own fault.

Mnk 20y meteodrive is 12k damage So they require you get hit by enlightenment or you use guard for extra 12k damage. Mnk has 3 dash you has 4 dash.
Sam is also same as mnk with 3 dash but you are more easy to outrun sam during sam dash turn their attack to circle AoE and 2 big hit ability has castime and sam LB is one of slow fill and they wouldn't LB if you didn't have debuff. So you can also laugh at sam if they chase you.

If dnc get kill is by their own mistake with position/run in first/escape too late/try get solo kill.
By the way Melee/Tank chase range dps/healer is also increase their chance get by kill you team. Remember pvp is teambattle.
With current pvp status set up 25y dnc is too much. 6.2 patch mostly will get some potency adjustment I believe. And if we are lucky we may get some nerf with damage reduction taken in frontline! So you can get back some kill!

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

honesty they should buff Rdps range in general.

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No, they're fine as is in CC. If you're referring to Frontlines, the jobs should not be balanced around that. But a target cap would help in that mode for keeping a lot of jobs from being too powerful.

Said it before and I'll say it again, never should have added the new skillset to FL, the old system was better for it, should have kept the new one for cc only.

Dancer would still have proper range, healers would actually be able to heal, melee players aren't juggernauts, LB's were not as op/up as they are now, new system caused more negatives than positives by far for FL, and it prob also will do so for the soon to be reintroduced pvp maps due to it being balanced around the mario party mode.

Dancer as it is now is an unfortunate testament that the "PvP team" designs nearly everything around their small-scale modes (Feast/Crystal Conflict), and due to their rather narrow fixation on those modes or lack of meaningful playtesting in any large-scale environment with different rules (maybe both), Frontlines often ends up with major balance oversights. The SMN/WHM stacking and LB spam was the most egregious recent example. As a result, their knee-jerk reaction was to not only nerf SMN, WHM (and for some reason SCH's) damage across the board as to not directly address their Limit Breaks (the main issue), but give every melee job the latent capacity to survive nothing short of a full-party's targeted effort (maybe just 5-6 if some of them know what they're doing). Oh, and PLD's Cover single-handedly griefing entire Onsal matches.

DNC is similar to WHM and SMN in which it's "fine" in CC, but in Frontlines it goes in the opposite direction. Whereas WHM and SMN were overpowered when their LBs were stacked and abused, DNC's new playstyle rework is at odds with the sheer amount of crap going on in Frontlines and they are easily the most useless job there. They don't get to operate at a relatively safe distance like every other rDPS; they need to put themselves at mid-range where they are an easy target to engage directly, or at point-blank range where they are basically begging to get dog-piled. Despite this, they didn't get considered for defense buffs like every other melee despite needing to perform in essentially the same range to even contribute in fights. Even their LB is highly punishable due to the activation delay and essentially putting yourself in the worst possible place to be a rDPS in any Frontlines fight.

DNC in Frontlines is essentially high risk, low reward- and I rag on DNC in Frontline all the time, even though it was my favorite DPS job there before the PvP rework. I have yet to see any DNC in Primal achieve Battle High 5; highest was maybe BH3 before I locked it down when it got back into range and was subsequently mobbed to death. If the "PvP team" is even a bit serious about job balance in Frontlines, at the very least Dancer needs to be tankier than every other rDPS, if not as tanky as the melee DPS if they are going to leave it with it's current kit and expect it to function in situations where they need to wade into more than 5 enemies.

tldr: DNC is designed to work in CC, not Frontlines. The fact that it hasn't been addressed or acknowledged shows that Frontlines balance is an afterthought if the kneejerk bandaid of nerfing SMN and WHM's damage and buffing melee to survive getting ran over by a truck twice wasn't enough proof.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Dancer as it is now is an unfortunate testament that the "PvP team" designs nearly everything around their small-scale modes (Feast/Crystal Conflict) (...)

tldr: DNC is designed to work in CC, not Frontlines. The fact that it hasn't been addressed or acknowledged shows that Frontlines balance is an afterthought if the kneejerk bandaid of nerfing SMN and WHM's damage and buffing melee to survive getting ran over by a truck twice wasn't enough proof.

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So true, the biggest problem was they reworked everything around their new shiny mode and let the rest get burned... Yes its also a matter of skill and what exactly the teams are made off etc, but thats exactly it, the teams are random and so balance is hard...ive lost 6 onsai matches yesterday bc of pala cover - 6-8 ppl could not kill a sinlge dps or just could barely. I as a rdm, even after all my skils cant kill others without help - even my lb barely does anything. While dare me gettin hit with anything. If at least my melee combo would have no CD, i could at least fend off a bit... but like that... once a War or whatever pulls me back and theres more then 2-3 ppl im dead, while melee frequently just flee...

Even old HW pvp was way move fun, with nin sneaking and stuff...

And im already scared for Rival wings cause i cant imagine the mess...

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No, they're fine as is in CC. If you're referring to Frontlines, the jobs should not be balanced around that. But a target cap would help in that mode for keeping a lot of jobs from being too powerful.

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Why? Is FE now forbidden? Should they close it off for months like Rival Wings?

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Originally Posted by Cidel

DNC in Frontlines is essentially high risk, low reward- and I rag on DNC in Frontline all the time, even though it was my favorite DPS job there before the PvP rework. I have yet to see any DNC in Primal achieve Battle High 5; highest was maybe BH3 before I locked it down when it got back into range and was subsequently mobbed to death. If the "PvP team" is even a bit serious about job balance in Frontlines, at the very least Dancer needs to be tankier than every other rDPS, if not as tanky as the melee DPS if they are going to leave it with it's current kit and expect it to function in situations where they need to wade into more than 5 enemies.

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Hey, can I be the first? Here's a screenshot from a match I played an hour ago. Was also the first person on my team to hit BH5.
https://i.imgur.com/zyTOFSv.png
I'm still learning, but I had no problem hitting consistent BH5s in my first week of playing DNC (this was also after the infamous melee buffs). It made me wonder what the hell everyone else was doing because I also found other DNCs to be easy kill targets, but after seeing this thread I think I'm beginning to understand. There are too many people treating this like old DNC.

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@OP: It's fine to dislike the new direction, and I'm not gonna argue whether new DNC is good or not, but it feels like a lot of the issues mentioned in this thread are born from not understanding how to pilot the job properly. For one thing, you're not meant to use En Avant to dash in unless the enemy is on the back foot; it's far safer to position yourself at max DNC range, hit your GCD, En Avant backwards, reposition for safety/offense as needed, and repeat. 15y from your attacks + 10y dash with En Avant works out to be 25y between you and your target, so you can create enough distance before they have time to react. DNC has the potential to be very slippery in Frontlines--you just need to be proactive about your positioning and the way you use En Avant. Play your cards right, and you'll find that getting attacked is so rare, you could probably take Guard off your hotbar and still end the match with 0 deaths lol (don't actually do this)

But I'm also not gonna argue this too hard, because I kinda like that people see DNC as bad. That just means we'll get buffs, which means I get to unleash sweet, sweet violence.

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Originally Posted by Genz

Another of the many problems with the new Dnc is that the dash is no longer a movement skill (free to choose when to use), but an inconvenient requirement in the pve-like rotation to deal damage (big damage increase for Fountain/Cascade + allow to use Saber Dance).

Dnc is one of the worst change in this globally awful pvp update.

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That's possibly my biggest gripe with DNC at the current moment. I'm stuck having to sacrifice dashes for damage uptime or damage for survivability. Other than that I'm not having much trouble whatsoever...at least in CC anyways.

I can still get a BH5 in frontlines as long as I'm not using my LB. The risk is too extreme in frontlines and will often leave me dead attempting to charm a whole team. It's just not worth in my opinion. (Sure, I could use the help of a PLD to pull it off, but I mainly play solo q these days)

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Why? Is FE now forbidden? Should they close it off for months like Rival Wings?

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No, it's the fact that balancing around FL requires a completely different setup from CC. Not to mention I've played more than a few MMOs where there's regular PvP and Realm vs Realm. If you balance something for RvR, it often breaks regular PvP due to how OP the classes can get. If you balance something in PvP, it often doesn't break it in RvR because you're already balancing around smaller scale combat.

Like right now a lot of jobs in FL are absolutely OP due to how many targets can get hit at once. Put in a target cap of how many can be hit (like say 5), and it instantly reigns in a lot of the OP power of several jobs and balances it a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Silhart

Hey, can I be the first? Here's a screenshot from a match I played an hour ago. Was also the first person on my team to hit BH5.
https://i.imgur.com/zyTOFSv.png

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From you screenshot damage taken 403k it show you dive in the best and retreat timing. So Both blue and yellow team didn’t even realize you hitting them. Is really well play as dnc.
But of course all job has pro and cons is depend how players performed and how well they understand game mode feature. Perfect balance in frontline is basically impossible with all 19 jobs ,and rework will be alway some job has strong/weak toolkit. Dev team change/rework is mostly depend on players data in matches and feedback only give hint to where to look at data but data doesn’t tell them how to fixed. And I believe that is reason why they keep frontline on but turn off rival wing. Cause they have no idea how rework does in large scale battle.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If you balance something in PvP, it often doesn't break it in RvR because you're already balancing around smaller scale combat.

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Melee enduring so much isn't a big problem for me in CC but in FL it is. Same with the amount of stuns and ailments. If up to 5 players can stunlock you it's bad enough but 48? This balancing for CC ruined FL imho.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Melee enduring so much isn't a big problem for me in CC but in FL it is. Same with the amount of stuns and ailments. If up to 5 players can stunlock you it's bad enough but 48? This balancing for CC ruined FL imho.

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Oh I don't deny that, especially considering all the AoE nonsense going on, it's absolutely cancerous. IMO the status effects need diminishing returns, and Purify should make you immune to status ailments for 5s along with cleansing what you have on.

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Originally Posted by Valfreyja

I'm talking PvP 2.0. When they redid the entire thing and gave us an unbalanced mess that they are since trying to fix all the screwups on.

And 15y is BS on a ranged job when melee jobs are getting stuff with 20-25y.

DNC is literally awful now. Before they did all these changes to push CC as the new big PvP thing, DNC was in a really good place. It wasn't super powerful or broken, like they did with a lot of jobs after the 2.0 shift.

Now, unlike Bard and Machinist which got to keep their range, Dancers are forced to get even closer to melee enemies, and get ganked by their ranged actions in the process.

There is something seriously wrong when a melee job can hit you before you get inside the range to even use your own basic attacks. BRD/MCH don't suffer from this, because their attacks have a proper range on them.

Couple this with the garbage targeting from using controllers (which means it's very hard to actually focus on specific classes in a general melee) and you end up getting hit much more often. It's easier to let the auto-target grab whatever is closest to you and attack it, regardless of whether it's a primary target in PvP or not. Because in the time it takes you to cycle targets with controller, you're dead because they are so close.

Most who play DNC that I've spoken with hate the range nerf we were given. Someone literally hadn't played DNC until today, since the CC changes were made, and the first thing they asked was what had SE done to DNC to break it like this.

Case in point, I'm not even a strong PvP player. But with DNC from the previous system, I could manage 6-10 kills in a Frontline, 0 deaths, and a few dozen assists without much trouble. But with the range changes and all that? Not managing any kills, and the only reason I survive is by staying out of range for most of it, with no real attacking going on because if I get close, I'm dead.

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This is probably the 4th time they completely redid pvp...