Refugees (Spoilers)

I've been wondering recently more so from an RP perspective about how far one would expect the various refugee groups would travel while trying to escape oh I don't know a Mad King or an Empire hell bent on world domination. We know Ala Mhigans for the most part went as far as Ul'Dah. If there's any in La Noscea it's not stated. We also know that even though Oboro and crew are Doman they didn't get to Eastern La Noscea as refugees, but because they were on the trail of Karasu. Really I'm just wondering how realistic would it be to have a refugee travel and to where from places back when Garlemald took them over 20+ years ago or if there were more like Lyse and Yda who felt the need to flee from a Mad King's reign? I doubt many would have been able to enter Sharlyean like those two were able to unless it was to the Dravanian Hinterlands colony.

People travel as far as they can, or as far as they feel the need to in order to get to "a better place." Just look at the real world. Through all of history it's been everything from fleeing to the neighboring town to crossing oceans. In game we only see what we see. Just because we don't see Ala Mhigan refugee camps in La Noscea doesn't mean there aren't any. They might exist and just not be relevant to the story.

Also, remember that the in game calendar is frozen in time at 5-years post calamity so we're only ever seeing a single snapshot of the refugee situation. If time was moving those camps and tent cities wouldn't stay the same forever. People would eventually move on, or they'd turn into real towns over time.

I know the game is in a time bubble. Just that we don't know if any highlander hyur models in Limsa could be an Ala Mhigan. Or from any other country that had been invaded unless they state it. Same thing with having to remember that Au Ra, Viera and Hrothgar are supposed to be in places that we might not see them due to which expansion the area was added.

The Domans who were with Yugiri went as far as Vesper Bay in Thanalan looking for someone to take them in before they were sent to Mor Dhona.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SannaR

I know the game is in a time bubble. Just that we don't know if any highlander hyur models in Limsa could be an Ala Mhigan. Or from any other country that had been invaded unless they state it. Same thing with having to remember that Au Ra, Viera and Hrothgar are supposed to be in places that we might not see them due to which expansion the area was added.

---

Ala Mhigans wind up in Thanalan. There's literally a ferry not super duper farther than that, that takes people to Limsa Lominsa all of the time. Keep in mind, Ala Mhigans clearly have to come across the Shroud to escape into Eorzea proper from Ala Mhigo. The Shroud would be their first choice, if it was accepting. It's the shortest distance from their homeland. Ul'dah is up next, because it's the next closest. At that point though, Limsa isn't really that much farther away. It's just refugees might not have the coin to take the ferry. Then they wind up in pirate city.

I'm sure there's Ala Mhigans there, they're just rare. I mean, heck, there's noble born Ishgardians there. Why not Ala Mhigans? /shrug

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Ala Mhigans wind up in Thanalan. There's literally a ferry not super duper farther than that, that takes people to Limsa Lominsa all of the time. Keep in mind, Ala Mhigans clearly have to come across the Shroud to escape into Eorzea proper from Ala Mhigo. The Shroud would be their first choice, if it was accepting. It's the shortest distance from their homeland. Ul'dah is up next, because it's the next closest. At that point though, Limsa isn't really that much farther away. It's just refugees might not have the coin to take the ferry. Then they wind up in pirate city.

I'm sure there's Ala Mhigans there, they're just rare. I mean, heck, there's noble born Ishgardians there. Why not Ala Mhigans? /shrug

---

Proximity is just one part of where refugees end up.

Ala Mhigo has a complicated history with Gridania and for more than one reason aren’t completely welcome there. There is a small number of refugees in Gridania, but per the carpenter quests, they’re not well liked by the Gridanians, who generally don’t like outsiders to begin with. Any immigrant also needs to be accepted by the elementals and then for the rest of their life in the forest, follow the rules or risk the greenwrath.

Limsa Lominsa and Ul’dah both have plenty of work available, but Ul’dah is closer to everyone and has more of a reputation as being a place where “anyone can get rich”. Ul’dah also already has a population of Ala Mhigan refugees and immigrants are more likely to gather where others from their same culture are. An Ala Mhigan would have a much better network of support in Ul’dah than in Limsa Lominsa.

The appeal of Limsa Lominsa is that by its nature it’s a place you go to if you want to hide, which is why some NPCs end up there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Proximity is just one part of where refugees end up.

Ala Mhigo has a complicated history with Gridania and for more than one reason aren’t completely welcome there. There is a small number of refugees in Gridania, but per the carpenter quests, they’re not well liked by the Gridanians, who generally don’t like outsiders to begin with. Any immigrant also needs to be accepted by the elementals and then for the rest of their life in the forest, follow the rules or risk the greenwrath.

Limsa Lominsa and Ul’dah both have plenty of work available, but Ul’dah is closer to everyone and has more of a reputation as being a place where “anyone can get rich”. Ul’dah also already has a population of Ala Mhigan refugees and immigrants are more likely to gather where others from their same culture are. An Ala Mhigan would have a much better network of support in Ul’dah than in Limsa Lominsa.

The appeal of Limsa Lominsa is that by its nature it’s a place you go to if you want to hide, which is why some NPCs end up there.

---

Not true, the carpenter quest has to do with both sides trying to share their cultures and both taking offense because they wanted to be the ones to share their. So we make a bunch of eastern stuff to give them common ground to talk about things. The war was over 100 years ago and nobody really care. Also the Elementals decide who can live in the forest and who can't and basically choose at random. Some of those refugees are accepted. You even have to talk to one of them for the quest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Not true, the carpenter quest has to do with both sides trying to share their cultures and both taking offense because they wanted to be the ones to share their.

---

That’s not exactly how it went down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gairhard

There have always been certain...racial tensions between the refugees and locals.
I thought holding a tea party might ease the unease between them. I was wrong. Now they seem to have an even greater aversion to one another.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gridanian Soldier

Why don't we like them? Well, it's obvious, isn't it?
Every time we try to reach out to them, how are we repaid? With hostility. (…) It seems they have gone from refusing to accept our culture to openly spurning it!

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ala Mhigan Soldier

Every day we Ala Mhigans bleed and fight and die to protect this country, and yet the Gridanians still regard us with the same suspicion and resentment that they do beastmen.

---

There was a misunderstanding with the tea, but that was done in the context of neither side appreciating the other before that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

That’s not exactly how it went down.





There was a misunderstanding with the tea, but that was done in the context of neither side appreciating the other before that.

---

So how I described. The Gridanians are offended by the Ala Mhgians seemingly rejecting their culture when they are trying to share there as well. Those tensions are the usual xenophobic tensions that Gridanians have for anybody not forest born. Nothing to do with the war which was a long time ago. The only quest that has to do with that war are the bard quest because one person has a personal grudge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So how I described. The Gridanians are offended by the Ala Mhgians seemingly rejecting their culture when they are trying to share there as well. Those tensions are the usual xenophobic tensions that Gridanians have for anybody not forest born. Nothing to do with the war which was a long time ago. The only quest that has to do with that war are the bard quest because one person has a personal grudge.

---

It's far more complicated than that though - there is still lingering resentment and contempt by Gridania towards Ala Mhigo due to the Autumn War that occured a century before (basically Ala Mhigo attacked Gridania, resulting in the rest of Eorzea allying with Gridania to drive Ala Mhigo's forces back over the Velodyna), and even in the present day, there is still the air of "you attacked us back then, you got what you deserved you warmongers".

Of course the present day generation were not alive when that happened and only heard about the war through second information, but the padjal who are ageless would - hell, it was stated back in 1.0 that the bloodshed the Ala Mhigans caused back then still has a lingering effect on the forest to this day, and unfortunately the elementals being completely obtuse don't differentiate between "the ones who caused death and destruction in the forest 100 years ago" to "innocents fleeing war", it's all the same to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

It's far more complicated than that though - there is still lingering resentment and contempt by Gridania towards Ala Mhigo due to the Autumn War that occured a century before (basically Ala Mhigo attacked Gridania, resulting in the rest of Eorzea allying with Gridania to drive Ala Mhigo's forces back over the Velodyna), and even in the present day, there is still the air of "you attacked us back then, you got what you deserved you warmongers".

Of course the present day generation were not alive when that happened and only heard about the war through second information, but the padjal who are ageless would - hell, it was stated back in 1.0 that the bloodshed the Ala Mhigans caused back then still has a lingering effect on the forest to this day, and unfortunately the elementals being completely obtuse don't differentiate between "the ones who caused death and destruction in the forest 100 years ago" to "innocents fleeing war", it's all the same to them.

---

I'm aware of the war but there is nothing in game that says that there are lingering tensions outside of the bard quests because one person has a personal grudge.
The Elementals don't not care about people in that way which is why the people living in the forest are so xenophobic, If anybody breaks the rules than the forest holds all people into account. Considering that they do let some refugees in during ARR and they reject some is proof of that. They just chose who can live there and who can't at random. The only group that they seem to have outright banned is the Ixal(not even all of them).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

I'm aware of the war but there is nothing in game that says that there are lingering tensions outside of the bard quests because one person has a personal grudge.
The Elementals don't not care about people in that way which is why the people living in the forest are so xenophobic, If anybody breaks the rules than the forest holds all people into account. Considering that they do let some refugees in during ARR and they reject some is proof of that. They just chose who can live there and who can't at random. The only group that they seem to have outright banned is the Ixal(not even all of them).

---

A war isn't a "one and done" event. It was the only war Gridania had ever taken part in its history against another non-beastman nation up until very recently, and it was the first time another country fully invaded it and posed an existential threat. It was also the genesis of city-state cooperation in Eorzea, the first time they all came together to fight a common foe and led to where we are now and a common Eorzean identity. It was also the genesis of the Bard job, which spread patriotic stories about the war to years to come, and the Lancers' Guild, which still exists today. And for years after the war, Gridania shared a long border with a belligerent, militaristic, and unstable nation whose main export was mercenaries and then after a purge, civil war, and invasion, they exported refugees and Garlean spies.

After the war, Ishgard and Gridania even held reenactments and mock battles in celebration every year, so it's not like it's something that disappeared from the public consciousness.


My point was that Gridanians view all outsiders with suspicion. But I would imagine that with the history they have, Ala Mhigans already have more baggage than a Lominsan or an Ul'dahn in the eyes of the average Gridanian citizen.

The fact that we have a whole questline around a guy being angry about it shows that some are less OK than others. While I'm sure many Gridanians are accepting, Nourval wasn't alone, he had a whole band of people with him that hated Ala Mhigo. Though the majority probably lie in between the extremes of him and Beatin. In that questline one of the NPCs even says that Gridanians are already grumbling about Ala Mhigan liberation. The point of the story arc is to stop Nourval because he would fan the embers of mistrust specifically aimed at Ala Mhigans into a diplomatic crisis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

A war isn't a "one and done" event. It was the only war Gridania had ever taken part in its history against another non-beastman nation up until very recently, and it was the first time another country fully invaded it and posed an existential threat. It was also the genesis of city-state cooperation in Eorzea, the first time they all came together to fight a common foe and led to where we are now and a common Eorzean identity. It was also the genesis of the Bard job, which spread patriotic stories about the war to years to come, and the Lancers' Guild, which still exists today. And for years after the war, Gridania shared a long border with a belligerent, militaristic, and unstable nation whose main export was mercenaries and then after a purge, civil war, and invasion, they exported refugees and Garlean spies.

After the war, Ishgard and Gridania even held reenactments and mock battles in celebration every year, so it's not like it's something that disappeared from the public consciousness.


My point was that Gridanians view all outsiders with suspicion. But I would imagine that with the history they have, Ala Mhigans already have more baggage than a Lominsan or an Ul'dahn in the eyes of the average Gridanian citizen.

The fact that we have a whole questline around a guy being angry about it shows that some are less OK than others. While I'm sure many Gridanians are accepting, Nourval wasn't alone, he had a whole band of people with him that hated Ala Mhigo. Though the majority probably lie in between the extremes of him and Beatin. In that questline one of the NPCs even says that Gridanians are already grumbling about Ala Mhigan liberation. The point of the story arc is to stop Nourval because he would fan the embers of mistrust specifically aimed at Ala Mhigans into a diplomatic crisis.

---

This one seemed to be, again you can't really point to anything aside from one guy in the bard quest who even brings it up as a potential spark point. I think you're overselling the state of Ala Mhigo after the war

Where is that in game? I haven't seen anything about that.

I see your point there is just nothing to support your point, the bard quest is one guy's personal grudge because his relative was the Gridanian General during the war and he was assassinated. He thinks letting everybody know that he was killed and instead of dying of an illness will spark negative reactions. We are asked to intervene, not because it's a serious threat but because why let a spark turn into something when we can stop it. The quest line just isn't framed like it would be a major problem, smoke without a whole lot of fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

This one seemed to be, again you can't really point to anything aside from one guy in the bard quest who even brings it up as a potential spark point. I think you're overselling the state of Ala Mhigo after the war

Where is that in game? I haven't seen anything about that.

I see your point there is just nothing to support your point, the bard quest is one guy's personal grudge because his relative was the Gridanian General during the war and he was assassinated. He thinks letting everybody know that he was killed and instead of dying of an illness will spark negative reactions. We are asked to intervene, not because it's a serious threat but because why let a spark turn into something when we can stop it. The quest line just isn't framed like it would be a major problem, smoke without a whole lot of fire.

---

It's not just one guy. He had a group of people with him and it's described as a faction. The people on our side in the quest agreed that if it got out, it would be bad. He wasn't just some Gridanian general, he was a hero. He was invited to a peace conference and poisoned and Gridania would have lost the war after if Eorzea wasn't convinced to come together. The fact that it's treated as a big enough deal means that there's still embers of resentment that can catch fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanson

And Nourval seeks to use it to stoke the fires of anti-Ala Mhigan sentiment to some sinister end. This cannot be borne─we cannot let them have the journal! Are you with me?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sanson

To this day, Lord Vainchelon remains an object of worship among many Gridanians. Were they to learn of this, the present grumblings against Ala Mhigan liberation are liable to grow into large-scale protests.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jehantel

Had it been made known that their hero was struck down by treachery, ordinary Gridanians would not have been satisfied with protecting their homes. Nay, they would have demanded justice. They would have demanded blood.
The war would have raged on, leaving yet more death and destruction in its wake. And the peace that Lord Vainchelon dreamed of would have gone up in smoke. Knowing this, Lord Landrenel...

---

If you're asking where the reenactment thing was in the game, that's mentioned in a leve, I believe. I lot of good lore about random day-to-day things are locked in leve descriptions.

I particularly like the Levequest lore in Quarrymill revolving around making arms and armor for Ala Mhigans who've joined the settlement's militia or something akin to that. It's been quite a while since I read through the crafter leves there, though.

As far as tensions from the Autumn War go, it's about the same distance back in time as World War II is now. While it wasn't a war of that scale, plenty of conflicts from 60+ years ago still ripple into today in a lot of ways, on personal levels. People's kids and grandkids learn the stories. They see the trauma of war etched into their elders' faces. Gridanian's mistrust and call for blood all make sense. It would have been a big deal.

Generational trauma is a very real thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Proximity is just one part of where refugees end up.

Ala Mhigo has a complicated history with Gridania and for more than one reason aren’t completely welcome there. There is a small number of refugees in Gridania, but per the carpenter quests, they’re not well liked by the Gridanians, who generally don’t like outsiders to begin with. Any immigrant also needs to be accepted by the elementals and then for the rest of their life in the forest, follow the rules or risk the greenwrath.

Limsa Lominsa and Ul’dah both have plenty of work available, but Ul’dah is closer to everyone and has more of a reputation as being a place where “anyone can get rich”. Ul’dah also already has a population of Ala Mhigan refugees and immigrants are more likely to gather where others from their same culture are. An Ala Mhigan would have a much better network of support in Ul’dah than in Limsa Lominsa.

The appeal of Limsa Lominsa is that by its nature it’s a place you go to if you want to hide, which is why some NPCs end up there.

---

I mean.... Ul'dah also does a pretty good job of showing us that while it may very well be a city-state where anyone can work the Bloodsands and end up filthy rich and win a seat on the Syndicate, it's uh..... also not that bloody simple. No, the real winner here is Gosetsu. That man sailed the whole flippin' sea for SOMEONE ELSE. He's the true hero of the plot, a legend to be told across the ages. Who is even IS this WoL putz?

In all seriousness, there isn't really any one ideal choice for refugees to settle in Eorzea. That's actually a rather realistic showing of the utter crudmuffins actual irl refugees go through, and I appreciate that. The effort they put in is commendable. None of the options are particularly, uh. Appealing.

About the lingering resentment between Gridanians and Ala Mhigans, don't forget that elezen are stated to live up to around 180 years... so most of the elezens that were present during war times are probably still around, and that Ala Mhigo was was basically Garlemald back in the day, in that they were a massive invading force which forced the rest of Eorzea to unite to fight back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luizgazen

About the lingering resentment between Gridanians and Ala Mhigans, don't forget that elezen are stated to live up to around 180 years... so most of the elezens that were present during war times are probably still around, and that Ala Mhigo was was basically Garlemald back in the day, in that they were a massive invading force which forced the rest of Eorzea to unite to fight back.

---

120 there about and most people are never gonna make it to that age. This is a medieval world and they live in a place where the forest can delete you if you step on the wrong mushroom. Also Ala Mhigo invaded to take land (East Ends and part of Central Shourd.)
Ishgard joined because they saw it as a potential threat if Ala Mhigo would continue their advance. Limsa and Uldah joined so that Gridania would owe them a favor and it would reduce Ala Mhigo's military might, as they were the strongest on the continent. Comparing them to the Garleans is just way out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

120 there about and most people are never gonna make it to that age. This is a medieval world and they live in a place where the forest can delete you if you step on the wrong mushroom. Also Ala Mhigo invaded to take land (East Ends and part of Central Shourd.)
Ishgard joined because they saw it as a potential threat if Ala Mhigo would continue their advance. Limsa and Uldah joined so that Gridania would owe them a favor and it would reduce Ala Mhigo's military might, as they were the strongest on the continent. Comparing them to the Garleans is just way out there.

---

Most would make it to that age I would think since they have magical healing flowing like tap water there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

120 there about and most people are never gonna make it to that age. This is a medieval world and they live in a place where the forest can delete you if you step on the wrong mushroom.

---

People in our world like Plato and Theophrastus reached their 80s 1000 years before the medieval period so it's not out of the realm of possibility. In-universe, there's a Lalafell running around who is 132 years old. The Padjal who RUN the country that was attacked live into their hundreds. Magic can do some crazy things.

E-Sumi-Yan is at least 600 years old. I do think that's more of a Padjali thing though. At the end of EW he gives an age of 300, but in this year's Hatchingtide he states that what we call happy bunnies had a different name back when he was younger and that even in his 600 years they've been fairly rare. Except when you spam certain fates in Eureka.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

People in our world like Plato and Theophrastus reached their 80s 1000 years before the medieval period so it's not out of the realm of possibility. In-universe, there's a Lalafell running around who is 132 years old. The Padjal who RUN the country that was attacked live into their hundreds. Magic can do some crazy things.

---

The devs have already said that most don't due to the world they live in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The devs have already said that most don't due to the world they live in.

---

Most is not the same as all. Most Greeks didn't live to be that age either, but some did.

In the line that you're quoting from me I also say that there's a Lalafell who is much older than the "typical" expiration date. His age is confirmed in the Eorzea Encyclopedia as 132 but he's a race that's "supposed" to have a limit of 100 but he's not infirm or anything. He does happen to be a mage, which most certainly helps. I'm pretty sure most Eorzean peasants aren't mages so that probably skews the average.

And again, the Padjal lead Gridania and we know of at least one who would have been alive back during the Autumn War. E-Sumi-Yan stopped counting after 100 and people think he's at least 230. He would certainly have been involved in those events. Besides, even if there was no one from back then who was still alive, resentment doesn't last just a single generation, just ask the Garleans who are still pissed off over lands lost 600 years ago. And again, there was a whole faction that supported the guy in the bard quests and an NPC said there was grumbling about Ala Mhigo being liberated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Most is not the same as all. Most Greeks didn't live to be that age either, but some did.

In the line that you're quoting from me I also say that there's a Lalafell who is much older than the "typical" expiration date. His age is confirmed in the Eorzea Encyclopedia as 132 but he's a race that's "supposed" to have a limit of 100 but he's not infirm or anything. He does happen to be a mage, which most certainly helps. I'm pretty sure most Eorzean peasants aren't mages so that probably skews the average.

And again, the Padjal lead Gridania and we know of at least one who would have been alive back during the Autumn War. E-Sumi-Yan stopped counting after 100 and people think he's at least 230. He would certainly have been involved in those events. Besides, even if there was no one from back then who was still alive, resentment doesn't last just a single generation, just ask the Garleans who are still pissed off over lands lost 600 years ago. And again, there was a whole faction that supported the guy in the bard quests and an NPC said there was grumbling about Ala Mhigo being liberated.

---

I never said all. There's no need to look at a group of people who kept the wrongs done to them close to their hearts for 800 years. Again outside of that small faction who tried to do something with their grudge, most people don't seen to really care about it. Not to the point where lots of people are grumbling about it 100 years later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SannaR

E-Sumi-Yan is at least 600 years old. I do think that's more of a Padjali thing though. At the end of EW he gives an age of 300, but in this year's Hatchingtide he states that what we call happy bunnies had a different name back when he was younger and that even in his 600 years they've been fairly rare. Except when you spam certain fates in Eureka.

---

He never mentioned his age in the English, Japanese, or French version of the seasonal quest. As an aside, he said it was rare for him to see a Happy Bunny in the Twelveswood.

Quote:

---

E-Sumi-Yan: Your efforts are sincerely appreciated. These seasonal celebrations bring so much joy to the children─and myself, I confess.
E-Sumi-Yan: Still, I must say...it's been years since I've seen a traveler rabbit in the flesh. I never would have expected to encounter one here.
E-Sumi-Yan: What's that? That nomenclature is unfamiliar to you? Ah, in the North they are known more...colloquially...as “happy bunnies,” are they not? They're said to usher in smiles and good fortune...
E-Sumi-Yan: Before that─yes, since much older times─they were known as “traveler rabbits.” They have a habit of showing up at your side unannounced, then vanishing off somewhere before you know it. I recall seeing one in the Twelveswood when I was but a child.
E-Sumi-Yan: Ah, but forgive me... You have other places you must be. We can talk another time─pray relax and enjoy the festivities when your work is done.

---