Mouse over actions should really be officially supported.

I know this is a commonly requested change, and I know there are workarounds available, but the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so squeak I will.

To start, I'd like to share the opener for Astrologian. Assuming the boss is already targeted, a card was drawn pre-pull, and no redraws were necessary:

Fall Malefic

Lightspeed

--Pull--
Combust III
Target -> ally (mouse click)

Play

Draw

Target -> boss (tab)
2.5s
Fall Malefic
Target -> ally (click)

Play

Draw

5s
Target -> boss (tab)
Fall Malefic
Target -> ally (click)

Divination

Play

Target -> boss (tab)
7.5s
…


“So what? Just play a job with a less complex opener”

The issue isn't complexity, I like how complex it is. The issue I’d like to focus on is the target changes. Within 7.5 seconds, an Astrologian performing the optimal rotation (with ideal RNG) takes 17 actions (roughly 2.2 actions per second), with over a third of these actions being target changes, actions where you’re not casting an ability at all! This does not only happen at the opener, but also at every 2-minute DPS window.

Within 1 GCD, an Astrologian requires both the ability to quickly identify the correct target for your drawn card and the physical dexterity to select them with a click, before quickly switching your target back to the boss. Supporting mouseover actions preserves the gameplay skill aspect of identifying the correct target, while reducing (but not eliminating) the physical dexterity required to target them, effectively cutting the hard inputs required by a third.

“Targeting is a part of the skill required to play the game”

Everyone’s physical dexterity is different. I argue the game design of MMOs should seek to remove as many barriers relating to it as possible, instead relying on class design and encounter complexity to add depth and challenge. This isn’t an FPS where precise and rapid muscle movements are a core aspect of gameplay.

To emphasize a keyword above; barrier. The act of casting a skill on its correct target is still happening, with nothing being done for you. The only thing that changes is the way we communicate these actions to the game.

“Just use mouseover macros”

Mouseover macros are insufficient, full stop. The queueing of abilities is vital for a plethora of reasons I won’t go into here. Those who suggest this should note the difference between a solution and a work around.


“But controller players tho”

https://i.imgur.com/hcbg6cB.png

Thank you for reading.

I think your little jab towards controller players will make a lot of people resent your idea no matter how sound it is.

Mouse over macros for healing abilities won't set you back much. Given how little healing goes on you can still easily get your orange/pink parse with them. They're perfectly sufficient. Not ideal but absolutely, 100%, sufficient.

Still wouldn't hurt if SE would allow queuing on macros. And fix queuing for pots/sprint while they're at it

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I think your little jab towards controller players will make a lot of people resent your idea no matter how sound it is.

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It's not a jab, I'm acknowledging things are worse for them, but this post is for mouse/keyboard players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Mouse over macros for healing abilities won't set you back much. Given how little healing goes on you can still easily get your orange/pink parse with them. They're perfectly sufficient. Not ideal but absolutely, 100%, sufficient.

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I realize it's totally possible to play well using the macros, but you also note that it isn't ideal. Why shouldn't this change be made?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

I think your little jab towards controller players will make a lot of people resent your idea no matter how sound it is.

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Controllers have different, but equally useful, solutions. See pre-cast snapping directable with one's joystick, for instance. (Hit Icarus, pan joystick towards an applicable target with the soft-target reticle noting current selection --which notes both angle and depth-- then confirm. Or hit and hold until release. Or even hit and use dual-indicators for ally and enemy and use RT-LT to cast to the enemy or ally in snap range, defaulting to target or target of target if none is soft-targetted. Etc., etc.)

Heck, there are a lot of functions that'd flat out work better on controller (see analog functions of any sort, two-stage buttons, etc.), so it's not as if any and all UI innovation will favor M&KB. Innovate on control systems wherever practical and let each setup acquire new advantages if that so happens; that's really not an issue, especially given how much our current barebone systems already favor M&KB.



Additionally, controllers would likely be more positively affected by certain shared QoL changes, like the ability to simultaneously hold one friendly and one unfriendly target (though with still just one or the other being the main target) such that on-friendly-only and on-unfriendly-only actions can be cast without hitting the Target Focus or Assist Target keys (which can typically be bound much more handily for M&KB). The last thing we need is for changes that can aid both being thwarted, down the line, over any camp-ism.

Not much to say here. I fully support this. Mouseover functionality as an option should definitely be a thing.

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Originally Posted by Arcadious

Within 1 GCD, an Astrologian requires both the ability to quickly identify the correct target for your drawn card and the physical dexterity to select them with a click, before quickly switching your target back to the boss.

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Just want to add that you also can select party members with the keyboard. With F1 through F8 I think.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

Just want to add that you also can select party members with the keyboard. With F1 through F8 I think.

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That's a fair point! But I thought about mentioning that in the OP but I've honestly never met anyone who does that.

I imagine it's probably more accurate than clicking, but at the end of the day it's the same number of inputs.

I doubt most people will support this considering most people don't even know what a mouseover action does/how useful it is until they try it themselves. Which requires forbidden knowledge.


You get my bump + like though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcadious

That's a fair point! But I thought about mentioning that in the OP but I've honestly never met anyone who does that.

I imagine it's probably more accurate than clicking, but at the end of the day it's the same number of inputs.

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Personally, if I have a KB with my F1-4 keys near enough, I'll use Caps key (rebound to Ctrl) in place of F5-8.

Or, at present, I just use an MMO mouse with F1-3 for dungeoning. ~ for myself, F1 for first party member other than myself, etc. In raids, I'll just mouse over the DPS, but at least those give me quick binds to co-healer and either tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcadious

I realize it's totally possible to play well using the macros, but you also note that it isn't ideal. Why shouldn't this change be made?

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I'm not against a fix at all. I think it would be great, and if it's a low-hanging fruit, all the better. I still think it's such a small difference that time should probably be spent elsewhere. But like you said, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So it's fair game if enough people care.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I still think it's such a small difference that time should probably be spent elsewhere.

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It's literally just a slapped-on modifier applied as a blanket, switching its place with the default <target> mechanism.

The game already has a mouseover function; it just requires one to form a macro to use, and macros have been actively sabotaged in this game by having removing their ability to queue (alongside item usage, general actions like Sprint, and other weird exceptions).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I'm not against a fix at all. I think it would be great, and if it's a low-hanging fruit, all the better. I still think it's such a small difference that time should probably be spent elsewhere. But like you said, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So it's fair game if enough people care.

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It's absolutely a low hanging fruit, one that it feels like they've intentionally avoided for some time. I'd love to know if they've ever stated somewhere why it's not already a feature in the game.

As for the time comment, I feel like people on these forums like to play Square Enix project manager as a way to trivialize issues others have with the game. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it's a common crutch. We can all suggest things we'd like to see and let the company decide what to prioritize.

I feel that they hobbled the macro system in an effort to reduce or prevent botting.

But as that has not worked at all, I’d like them to give up on that tactic and allow queuing for mouse over macros and instant macros like swiftcast rez.

I don't think it's a bad idea but you if you're on keyboard you may not realize you don't need to click to target. You can use function keys to target party members. Until they implement support for this, then something like that may help.

You can also make a key to do /assist on someone who would be targeting the boss, to quickly get back to targeting what you were focused on before having to swap to the party member.

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Originally Posted by Arcadious

That's a fair point! But I thought about mentioning that in the OP but I've honestly never met anyone who does that.

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I've been F-Key healing for about 18 years. So, there is one person you've now met.

Fkeys, focus, and assist are pretty essential skills in my eyes.

As a controller user, I just have my XHB set up so I double tap R2 trigger button to bring up 8 macros I made for "play", one targeting each party slot. Makes it fast to dish out cards!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVXC9TgU...jpg&name=small

My tweet.

an actual legitimate case of controller holding mouse and keyboard back

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Originally Posted by ACE135

Just want to add that you also can select party members with the keyboard. With F1 through F8 I think.

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It's a bad idea to use F5-F8 at all during combat if you only have one hand on the keyboard because they are so far away from that one hand's resting position. It's still a little bit of a reach to use F1-F4 but at least for most people that's doable while still keeping two or three fingers on their resting keys. The difficulty of accurately pressing a button increases significantly the farther you need to move your hand to press it (See: Fitts's Law), and this difficulty increases even more when you only have a fraction of a second to press it.

Started playing this game on my keyboard. I was a tank. Zutvan came out. My hands got destroyed. I really wanted to clear the fight, but I didn't want to get carpal tunnel.

So I got a controller, learned to play on that. Never went back. Years later, I decided to learn how to play healer (AST, even). It was great.

One day my controller's trigger button stops working. I decide to try learning how to heal using mouse and keyboard. On that day, I realized how sorry I am for every single healer in this game that doesn't use a controller.

Use a controller. It will resolve all the issues you brought up in your post.

smartcast pls

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Originally Posted by Shibi

I've been F-Key healing for about 18 years. So, there is one person you've now met.

Fkeys, focus, and assist are pretty essential skills in my eyes.

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Two! I've been using function keys for party targeting since my EQ days. And it was so weird not having an actual "Assist" key here. I had to make a macro, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It's a bad idea to use F5-F8 at all during combat if you only have one hand on the keyboard because they are so far away from that one hand's resting position. It's still a little bit of a reach to use F1-F4 but at least for most people that's doable while still keeping two or three fingers on their resting keys. The difficulty of accurately pressing a button increases significantly the farther you need to move your hand to press it (See: Fitts's Law), and this difficulty increases even more when you only have a fraction of a second to press it.

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It may take some getting used to but it's something you can learn with muscle memory just like any other controls. I don't ever have to look at function keys to find the right one for the party member because it's automatic for me now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It may take some getting used to but it's something you can learn with muscle memory just like any other controls. I don't ever have to look at function keys to find the right one for the party member because it's automatic for me now.

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That you can do it does not negate my statement that it is objectively more difficult than remapping those keys to something closer to your hand's resting position. If a player plays with one hand on the keyboard they should map their keys so that everything is within the sweeping range of their fingers so that they can press them accurately without first spending so much time training themself to press them accurately. For most people this will be the keys to the left of the F4-5TGB diagonal and including it. People with extra long fingers or people who have prior training in piano might comfortably reach the 6YHN diagonal without training.

You can train yourself to press any key on the keyboard accurately if you really want to, but if you map your keys so that they're closer to your resting position, you'll need little or no additional training to press them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

it was so weird not having an actual "Assist" key here. I had to make a macro, lol.

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The game calls it "Target the Target of Your Current Target (Assist Target)". I have it bound to T.

Fully support improving the mouseover functionality in this game. I use mouseover macros to heal (I use an MMO mouse and it's a habit I adopted after playing WoW for years) and sometimes it can be frustrating as hell. I've been toying with the idea of trying out controller again (I used controller way back when ARR was current content), but I've been holding off because it kinda feels like I'd be relearning how to play this game functionally from the ground up.
So yes, improved mouseover interaction, please. :3

So much this.

It's such a hassle to play AST and keep their dps at a good efficiency with all the target swapping you got to do to, not just with the opener but through the whole fight.

Also I know macros - can - work, however performance aside... after you get used to queueing actions it feels awful when you start experimenting to play with macros.