If They Need Class Inspiration...

Why not reach into other Square properties?

The Bravely series has plenty they could draw from, and though I know it would never happen they could even whet Disney's whistle and give them some of the FF14 money for a Keyblade class.

The idea that they either have to scrape from Final Fantasy only or create something completely new is silly when this game prides itself on drawing from the company's other sources for so many other things.

the FF tactics series also has a fair amount of unused potential along with weapon types when you get to the advanced and A2 installments.

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Originally Posted by ListenDana

Why not reach into other Square properties?

The Bravely series has plenty they could draw from, and though I know it would never happen they could even whet Disney's whistle and give them some of the FF14 money for a Keyblade class.

The idea that they either have to scrape from Final Fantasy only or create something completely new is silly when this game prides itself on drawing from the company's other sources for so many other things.

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they wouldn't even have to wet disney's whistle disney normally goes to nomura for using sora outside of KH if nomura brought up wanting to use him, well the keyblade aspect. for a SE game they'd prolly be ok with it

There some characters even in FFXIV they can base new jobs on. Raubahn, back when he had two arms and his ability to generate flames from his swords and Meryweb and her dual pistols.

Have Raubahn's fighting style be something he learned back in Ala Mhigo as a traditional fighting style of his people back when they were mostly mercenaries and cut throats for hire and he decides to pass this fighring style onto us.

And Meryweb's style is something she picked up from her father, since he was the original owner of both her guns. And so we could directly learn from her and she eventually gives us a replica of her own pistols after we master her fighting style.

I don't think the problem is the theme. The mechanics are the hard part. You can put any graphics, names, and effects over any job and craft the animations to make sense.. but if it's just another 1-2-3 with some random resource to manage, why bother?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I don't think the problem is the theme. The mechanics are the hard part. You can put any graphics, names, and effects over any job and craft the animations to make sense.. but if it's just another 1-2-3 with some random resource to manage, why bother?

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100% this, they need new devs to work on jobs and come up with inventive job designs for the current jobs instead of creating barely useful job gauges and then removing any choice with the gauges so they just become your counter for how many times you can spam 1 skill (ie Sam, War, Drk, Dnc, Mch, etc.)

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Originally Posted by Amenara

100% this, they need new devs to work on jobs and come up with inventive job designs for the current jobs instead of creating barely useful job gauges and then removing any choice with the gauges so they just become your counter for how many times you can spam 1 skill (ie Sam, War, Drk, Dnc, Mch, etc.)

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We don't have jobs. We have roles. They would have to do some serious house cleaning for that to change. The way quests work have made it even clearer that the game is built around roles. So unique jobs probably aren't happening. It is sad, but it isn't like they haven't been moving this way every expansion for almost a decade.

Trust an believe you can make a billion classes but the issue I think is control
How do you make things more unique without making them too powerful or too weak
how do you add to it while keeping its identity and not over shadowing other classes
How does it fit with other classes
how does it interact with content
alot goes into making new classes but its whether or not they can make it work in their favor

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

We don't have jobs. We have roles. They would have to do some serious house cleaning for that to change. The way quests work have made it even clearer that the game is built around roles. So unique jobs probably aren't happening. It is sad, but it isn't like they haven't been moving this way every expansion for almost a decade.

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The reason quests moved to role quests instead of job quests were to ease the burden on the quest team for having to create 19 (and more with every expansion) separate questlines for each job instead of just doing 5 for each role and dedicating resources to other things. Whether you like that or hate it is a different issue, but that was the reasoning given. My point was about specific job changes and the lack of innovation with jobs through the last few expansions. That is why I think they need new devs with fresh ideas to work on the job design team instead of the same 4 people (for 5 roles).

New original jobs not seen in FF before that Yoshi P wants right? Hmm well...that is a tough one because they've done so much over the years that is FF that it would be incredibly hard to think outside the box.

I'm pretty sure they might be able to pull something from Xenogears, there was some unique combat styles in that.


edit -

one thing coming to mind, Magitek Class with a bit of a Tony Stark Iron Man inspiration.

Basically it adopts the principles of Magitek Machines but condensed into a Metal Suit that can do the same things a Magitek Machine can do such as elemental abilities, Magitek Missiles, etc (the abilities from FF6).

(well I guess this wouldn't be original though).

Maybe another Mage Variation? Dragon Mage?

Mage capable of turning into a Dragon for a limited time with Dragon abilities? Eh..maybe too narrow and unoriginal.


Edit -

So I'm thinking DBZ Goku's Power Pole, and it would be cool to have a Job that has a Staff that can do crazy stuff like Goku's Power Pole (I know a certain boss based on the same thing in Stormblood can do this too).

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Originally Posted by ListenDana

Why not reach into other Square properties?

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Probably because XIV and other Square Enix properties' settings, mechanically and in terms of relevant ability pool size, are day and night?

Mostly they need to go back to considering comparative identities (job distinctions), and not accidentally breaking keystone skills or their overarching systems (see Kaiten, Kenki) in their divinely mandated quest to "steamline" anything and everything (all while leaving obvious button-bloat, so long as it's newly added so it can pretend to offer more complexity than it actually does).

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Originally Posted by Soge01

There some characters even in FFXIV they can base new jobs on. Raubahn, back when he had two arms and his ability to generate flames from his swords and Meryweb and her dual pistols.

Have Raubahn's fighting style be something he learned back in Ala Mhigo as a traditional fighting style of his people back when they were mostly mercenaries and cut throats for hire and he decides to pass this fighring style onto us.

And Meryweb's style is something she picked up from her father, since he was the original owner of both her guns. And so we could directly learn from her and she eventually gives us a replica of her own pistols after we master her fighting style.

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This is a misconception, Raubahn may have had two swords, but he never to my knowledge actually dual wielded them, the few times we saw him fight (such as the cutscene of his famous Colleseum fight that earned his freedom and his place on the Syndicate) he wielded a single blade while parrying strikes with a buckler on his left arm, just like any regular GLA. Raubahn is just a regular GLA, albeit one with his own unique attacks. (And besides, he ended up giving one of his swords to Pipin anyway, who wields Tizona like a great sword, but then, he is a lalafell so it's expected. :p)

Merlwyb's class also was always meant to be added since 1.0 (Musketeer, or MSK for short) - it even has a Guildhall in the Coral Tower (which the MRD's Guild ended up taking over) but it was never implimented and whatever SE had been designed for it probably was used for MCH instead, so that airship has long since departed (my suspicion for MSK's no show in 1.0 was due to how 1.0 played - back then ranged classes like ARC/BRD required ammo to be equipped that had to be crafted, like in FFXI, and with ARCs' already complaining about the high cost of making arrows, having to make bullets for MSK would have been too much, and so it was put asided and just quietly dropped and forgotten about, even in ARR when things were changed and ammo was no longer needed to be equipped, with ARC/BRD's arrows just... handwaved away).

MCH's guns are actually superior to the obsolete relics the Limsans use anyway, given MCH makes bullets from the user's own aether, allowing for rapid fire and automatic loading, where as the Limsans like Merlwyb are stuck with single-shot muzzle loading flintlocks that fire balls not bullets (the quest to unlock MCH actually rubs the technological disparity in the Limsans' faces, where Joye gleefully blows Rostnsthal's flintlock out of his hand with an aetheric bullet from her automatic rifle before he can even pull the trigger, basically showing how utterly technologically outclassed Limsa really is). So that's another nail in MSK's coffin sadly.

He would say otherwise
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q4tS3JTcXdQ/maxresdefault.jpg

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Originally Posted by Vatom

He would say otherwise
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q4tS3JTcXdQ/maxresdefault.jpg

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I stand corrected. :P

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

MCH's guns are actually superior to the obsolete relics the Limsans use anyway, given MCH makes bullets from the user's own aether, allowing for rapid fire and automatic loading, where as the Limsans like Merlwyb are stuck with single-shot muzzle loading flintlocks that fire balls not bullets (the quest to unlock MCH actually rubs the technological disparity in the Limsans' faces, where Joye gleefully blows Rostnsthal's flintlock out of his hand with an aetheric bullet from her automatic rifle before he can even pull the trigger, basically showing how utterly technologically outclassed Limsa really is). So that's another nail in MSK's coffin sadly.

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Not a proven fact since Merlwyb literally shoots a rain of bullets in a instance against gnolls (Think thats what their called been awhile) while you were trying to save them from tempering Also Mch dont have a auto rifle.. its a giant extended pistol cannon ... thing so the interpet of a aether rifle to a aether GEPC thing isn't the same
I agree though that when Mch was created they seem to nvr want to make another gun class ever again for some reason
I mean they still have gunner like Saz or Yuna to add but they do seem to have any interest

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

This is a misconception, Raubahn may have had two swords, but he never to my knowledge actually dual wielded them, the few times we saw him fight (such as the cutscene of his famous Colleseum fight that earned his freedom and his place on the Syndicate) he wielded a single blade while parrying strikes with a buckler on his left arm, just like any regular GLA. Raubahn is just a regular GLA, albeit one with his own unique attacks. (And besides, he ended up giving one of his swords to Pipin anyway, who wields Tizona like a great sword, but then, he is a lalafell so it's expected. :p)

Merlwyb's class also was always meant to be added since 1.0 (Musketeer, or MSK for short) - it even has a Guildhall in the Coral Tower (which the MRD's Guild ended up taking over) but it was never implimented and whatever SE had been designed for it probably was used for MCH instead, so that airship has long since departed (my suspicion for MSK's no show in 1.0 was due to how 1.0 played - back then ranged classes like ARC/BRD required ammo to be equipped that had to be crafted, like in FFXI, and with ARCs' already complaining about the high cost of making arrows, having to make bullets for MSK would have been too much, and so it was put asided and just quietly dropped and forgotten about, even in ARR when things were changed and ammo was no longer needed to be equipped, with ARC/BRD's arrows just... handwaved away).

MCH's guns are actually superior to the obsolete relics the Limsans use anyway, given MCH makes bullets from the user's own aether, allowing for rapid fire and automatic loading, where as the Limsans like Merlwyb are stuck with single-shot muzzle loading flintlocks that fire balls not bullets (the quest to unlock MCH actually rubs the technological disparity in the Limsans' faces, where Joye gleefully blows Rostnsthal's flintlock out of his hand with an aetheric bullet from her automatic rifle before he can even pull the trigger, basically showing how utterly technologically outclassed Limsa really is). So that's another nail in MSK's coffin sadly.

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You could easily say that about Thancred, too. Wasn't he basically a gladiator with a knife since 1.0 until Rogue and Ninja started to be hinted at being added in 2.something?

Just because Raubahn never was really shown using both his swords at once doesn't mean he never did.

Also, just because the Limsans use inferior guns doesn't mean Meryweb's fighting style still can't be added eventually. Hell, some of the attacks Meryweb uses with her guns are strangely overpowered and can do things a normal gun of their make shouldn't. Like performing an overpowered version of shot gun blast with gigantic floor cone indicators. So I wouldn't count out her fighting techniques either just because mch is technically superior.

Reviewing Bravely 1 and 2, there really aren't jobs that are a substantially different fantasy than what we already have. Mayyyybe Pirate or Spiritmaster (or Beastmaster). But Merchant would be a DoH, Valkyrie is already Dragoon, Hellblade is already Dark Knight, Bastion is already Paladin, Oracle/Time Mage are already Astrologian, etc. etc.

That said, if Bravely only got one job representing it in FFXIV, I think Bravebearer is indisputably the one the devs ought to go with. It would be the job best encouraging some sort of Brave/Default gauge gimmick.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

You could easily say that about Thancred, too. Wasn't he basically a gladiator with a knife since 1.0 until Rogue and Ninja started to be hinted at being added in 2.something?

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He started off as a rogue v1 (gigolo/philanderer... who worked occasionally as a spy), upgraded to rogue v2 (knife-thrower, but otherwise just a basic single-dagger user), to rogue v3 (dual-knife user, some actual stealth), to... gunbreaker. /shrug

honestly it would be cool learning each city states leaders style as a job even if they were something like BLU and just small limited jobs for like level 1-50 dual wielding greatswords like a berserker learned from raubahn (after we get the sultana to make him teach us ofc). merlywb teaching us that old dogs can know new tricks with dualwield pistols/other more piratey skills like throwing out an explosive barrel that explodes after a set time. Kan-E-Senna teaching us about how to be an elementalist making full use of the elementals and the elements themselves. i'd have to think about HW onward and if i wanna count like aymeric, lyse, vrtra, etc.. idk who would teach us in Sharlyan or crystarium/eulmore tbh

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

He started off as a rogue v1 (gigolo/philanderer... who worked occasionally as a spy), upgraded to rogue v2 (knife-thrower, but otherwise just a basic single-dagger user), to rogue v2 (dual-knife user, some actual stealth), to... gunbreaker. /shrug

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It was also stated in the game he learned the ways of the gladiator. So he held his knife one handed while using their fighting style for a reason. That reason? Couldn't say why. Don't remember. But yeah, I remember him using a few rogue-like techniques, too here and there. Mostly the knife throwing.

And speaking of Rogue....Maybe FF10's version of Thief could be added to the game? With Rikku, it was bascially half thief and chemist that created items/weapons through random stuff she would steal off of enemies.

Since Ninja is far from anything a Rogue is at this point, it would be nice to get a good replacement that actually functions like a thief and not a naruto/sasuke knock off. Seriously, I love Naruto, but its getting pretty ridiculous with all these knock off techniques from the series. xD

I think the Four Heroes of Light version of Monk could be interesting, where it lets you utilize dead players for attacks.

It'd probably only be of use in raids (or if you get your team to beef it so you can use them for the move) but just imagine!

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

honestly it would be cool learning each city states leaders style as a job even if they were something like BLU and just small limited jobs for like level 1-50 dual wielding greatswords like a berserker learned from raubahn (after we get the sultana to make him teach us ofc). merlywb teaching us that old dogs can know new tricks with dualwield pistols/other more piratey skills like throwing out an explosive barrel that explodes after a set time. Kan-E-Senna teaching us about how to be an elementalist making full use of the elementals and the elements themselves. i'd have to think about HW onward and if i wanna count like aymeric, lyse, vrtra, etc.. idk who would teach us in Sharlyan or crystarium/eulmore tbh

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aymeric could teach us how to be an even better shield for our allies and protect them from everything the guardian job. basically advanced PLD but a real caster tank no melee just hard hitting holy spells and more long range support spells.

lyse could teach the ways of the ala mighan fist the abbot job (a play on real life monks where abbots were basically the head monk). also yes rhalgr would prolly intervene since we know about them now hence why you're able to push your limits past that of a normal monk. with more emphasis on meditation channeling combos, and hard hitting single punches, and summoning giant fists to unleash devastating combo finishers

vrtra could teach us how to further our progress with the dragon inside us the azure dragoon job. the reference should be self explanatory. with more emphasis on using aetherial claws and jaws summoned from the tips of our spears and maybe a bit of fire breathing as well idk.

honestly if we could learn these "advanced" jobs and group witht hem it would prolly be an entirely different game not sure how i feel about it tbh

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

aymeric could teach us how to be an even better shield for our allies and protect them from everything the guardian job. basically advanced PLD but a real caster tank no melee just hard hitting holy spells and more long range support spells.

lyse could teach the ways of the ala mighan fist the abbot job (a play on real life monks where abbots were basically the head monk). also yes rhalgr would prolly intervene since we know about them now hence why you're able to push your limits past that of a normal monk. with more emphasis on meditation channeling combos, and hard hitting single punches, and summoning giant fists to unleash devastating combo finishers

vrtra could teach us how to further our progress with the dragon inside us the azure dragoon job. the reference should be self explanatory. with more emphasis on using aetherial claws and jaws summoned from the tips of our spears and maybe a bit of fire breathing as well idk.

honestly if we could learn these "advanced" jobs and group witht hem it would prolly be an entirely different game not sure how i feel about it tbh

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for crystarium we would learn from Lyna how to be more wild and creative with our dance moves in combat the entertainer job. honestly i wouldn't mind learning skills like we seen in that one DNC job quest when we were learning DNC and she was pulling out all sorts of crazy moves. thanks to the wild and unpredictable nature of this "wild" dancing every hit has a chance to unleash a different elemental hit on an enemy (debuff or DoT). and instead of being forced to follow a rythym or pattern while you fight each GCD leads up to a dance finisher. think like mudras or PB on MNK but all the time.

eulmore we would learn the engineer job from chai-nuzz. think a more advanced MCH but with more emphasis on turrets and machines. a less active playstyle and more so like a minion job so to speak where you actively control each contraption. and prolly have an ability to have them all forge together to make a mech that you can hop in for their burst window,

sharlyan is still a toss up but i think the twins dad Fourchenault Leveilleur would be our teacher. now ik they don't wanna do an advanced SGE so i was prolly expecting him to be an advanced SMN/SCH teacher idk a good name for the job sorry. learning under him we are able to summon multiple egis at once and access more devastating comboes based around the ones summoned. so if we have leviathan and ifrit together we get a fire spell and water spell that after using them they come together to give us scalding steam our big summon finisher then the egis dissipate and we have to summon new egis.

sorry kinda went on a tangent there but there are jobs here that definitely could be used like engineer or a pure caster tank like the guardian

I think SE has long left the "learn Job abilities from an NPC" idea behind with the abandonment of Job quests in general though, and that it's made clear the WoL is now actually making up their own abilities as they go along from whole cloth, although getting pointers from famous NPCs in various Jobs in the future may still not be such a bad idea.

You have to remember though that the WoL is now the greatest fighter in the world, a warrior without peer or comparison, and that anything NPCs might be able to do, actually pales into insignificance compared to the WoL's skill and strength (hell, it's going to get to the point that sooner or later NPCs like Raubahn will start asking us to train them, rather than the other way around!). So I don't really think this will figure into things in the future sadly (I would be more than happy to be proven wrong though! :D).

Do they have a melee mage in one of their games? Then do that. If not, then it's time to rummage through that barren wasteland they call imagination to make something new.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Do they have a melee mage in one of their games? .

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red mage and paladin

Yeah, no frying thanks, a Keyblade job would absolutely not fit the XIV universe.
And I want XIV to remain as far from Nomura as possible. Eden raids were enough, Gaia's lips were enough.

It may appeal to KH fanbase but not everyone enjoy KH.

I'd rather have new and never seen before jobs. It's Final Fantasy Online, not Square Enix online or Square Enix Metaverse.
Keep franchise separated please, Nier was already too much, a "cross over job" would mean they need to update the job every expansions.

I'm still hoping to see the green mage coming as a tank one day. :'(

In my opinion the problem is not that they need new inspiration for jobs.
the problem is we have a dev team that is not creatively competent enough to properly implement, and use the many jobs and ideas they already have, and until that problem is resolved other classes that are created will either be clones of already existing jobs in the game (like the entirety of the healer role, and basically the tank role), or the new classes will be confined to be limited jobs -- essentially making them unusable in any current content (like one of the most unique and expansive jobs in the franchise Blue mage...how on earth did they mess that one up -_-)

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Originally Posted by ListenDana

Why not reach into other Square properties?

The Bravely series has plenty they could draw from, and though I know it would never happen they could even whet Disney's whistle and give them some of the FF14 money for a Keyblade class.

The idea that they either have to scrape from Final Fantasy only or create something completely new is silly when this game prides itself on drawing from the company's other sources for so many other things.

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Noctis job please. Give it an identity as they did with GNB! The potential it has are limitless!

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

In my opinion the problem is not that they need new inspiration for jobs.
the problem is we have a dev team that is not creatively competent enough to properly implement, and use the many jobs and ideas they already have, and until that problem is resolved other classes that are created will either be clones of already existing jobs in the game (like the entirety of the healer role, and basically the tank role), or the new classes will be confined to be limited jobs -- essentially making them unusable in any current content (like one of the most unique and expansive jobs in the franchise Blue mage...how on earth did they mess that one up -_-)

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IMO it's not a matter of the dev's not being creatively competent. It's more of an issue of the overall design direction pushed into the game has effectively placed excessive limitations on what they can actually do. The desire of the game to be for "everyone" has placed limitations on design due to the "need" for every job to be easily playable regardless of player ability or skill level stacked on top of this other need to have every job somehow perform almost exactly the same as every other job in that role type on any piece of content.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

IMO it's not a matter of the dev's not being creatively competent. It's more of an issue of the overall design direction pushed into the game has effectively placed excessive limitations on what they can actually do. The desire of the game to be for "everyone" has placed limitations on design due to the "need" for every job to be easily playable regardless of player ability or skill level stacked on top of this other need to have every job somehow perform almost exactly the same as every other job in that role type on any piece of content.

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Another consequence of this is that it reinforces design that predominantly distinguishes jobs by "aesthetics" and "flavor" instead of mechanics, a method which seems to be working since the overall spectacle-based job design is what attracts new players and keeps players invested in the game. There is considerably more effort put into making sure each job has a unique weapons and skill animations, unique job fantasy and effects kits, and unique costuming, than on developing novel playstyles. And they have leaned into this methodology so hard that now the success of new job designs is all the more heavily reliant on aesthetics to sell them as new engaging content, because the jobs will in all likelihood do very little to differentiate themselves as a matter of gameplay and mechanics.

Again, the overall quality and customizability of fashion in this game had ultimately led to a huge reduction in difficulty curve and job complexity. The most consistent gateway into subscribing to the game is glams, and the most consistent end game drive is glams. Comparatively far more effort is put into designing gear for this game than other MMOs, and that eats up developer resources. And since the developers seem to subconsciously realize that pursuit of glams is what keeps casual subscriptions up, the whole game has been streamlined more and more around role-based scripted gameplay with excessive sustain redundancy so that anyone across the skill spectrum feels like they have a shot of obtaining said glams.

FFXIV is, at its heart, a glorified dress-up doll simulator coupled with a fairly robust social avatar system. There is just enough current tier content to maintain the illusion that it is a combat-based game, but in reality "combat" in this game is just slightly more punishing DDR to create just enough scarcity of new glams to give them social value.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

FFXIV is, at its heart, a glorified dress-up doll simulator coupled with a fairly robust social avatar system.

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call of duty is a point and click adventure but the action is gun

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Another consequence of this is that it reinforces design that predominantly distinguishes jobs by "aesthetics" and "flavor" instead of mechanics, a method which seems to be working since the overall spectacle-based job design is what attracts new players and keeps players invested in the game. There is considerably more effort put into making sure each job has a unique weapons and skill animations, unique job fantasy and effects kits, and unique costuming, than on developing novel playstyles. And they have leaned into this methodology so hard that now the success of new job designs is all the more heavily reliant on aesthetics to sell them as new engaging content, because the jobs will in all likelihood do very little to differentiate themselves as a matter of gameplay and mechanics.

Again, the overall quality and customizability of fashion in this game had ultimately led to a huge reduction in difficulty curve and job complexity. The most consistent gateway into subscribing to the game is glams, and the most consistent end game drive is glams. Comparatively far more effort is put into designing gear for this game than other MMOs, and that eats up developer resources. And since the developers seem to subconsciously realize that pursuit of glams is what keeps casual subscriptions up, the whole game has been streamlined more and more around role-based scripted gameplay with excessive sustain redundancy so that anyone across the skill spectrum feels like they have a shot of obtaining said glams.

FFXIV is, at its heart, a glorified dress-up doll simulator coupled with a fairly robust social avatar system. There is just enough current tier content to maintain the illusion that it is a combat-based game, but in reality "combat" in this game is just slightly more punishing DDR to create just enough scarcity of new glams to give them social value.

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To be fair in regards to visuals numerous titles and studios have progressively sunk more and more time and resources in just visual effects as gaming hardware became more powerful. In all honestly I would probably attribute the bulk of the development for most if not all AAA titles to just visual effects, sprites, and textures as studios push to make the games as pretty as possible often going as far as to spend considerable time and effort for small details like now realistically a t-shirt worn by the character flows in the breeze. However when they don't spend the time an resources on details like that they get accused to being lazy despite the fact that we've lately been seeing development timeframes reaching 5-10 years on titles that non completionist players are usually finished with after 40hours or less of gameplay.