Incoming Frontline pvp adjustment - What changes do you think necessary?

Just like the recent letter on pvp adjustment said, the developer team is too focused on the shiny new Crystal Conflicts, a small-scale 5v5 arena, that Frontline, a 24v24v24 suffers from imbalance between classes.


Biggest problems that I observe during my playtime:


-Summoner's Limit Break: the biggest problem. Assuming both team is equal in skill, it is pretty much all about who focus-fire their legions of Bahamut first to kill a lot of another team's members to rack up Battle High, resulting even stronger Bahamuts next wave. No one use summon Phoenix, btw. In addition, both enemies and allies' summon have the same colors, so it is kinda hard to know which one is safe to approach post-drop.



-White Mage's Limit Break: help stun enemies' summoners so that your summoners can do the Bahamut drop. Two or more focus-fire WHM is pretty hurt and can finish off/let other people finish off dying enemies who are still be stunned.



-Scholar's DoT: scholar can rack up Battle High with their wide-spread DoT. It is rare to see a group of scholars compared to WHM and SUM, but when they do form a group, they climb Battle High fast, resulting very devastating on enemies side with their un-cure-able mass DoT.



-Paladin's Limit Break: call it smart play or imbalance depend on your mood, but PLD's LB is very strong in Oovo capture as you only need to capture the flag once. Basically, PLD cast LB and use Cover on a flag-capturer will make both immune to damage, and that capturer immune to all interruption. The duration lasts long enough for the flag to be captured, making it is possible to capture a flag that is already surrounded by enemies with only two people.



Altogether, you tend to see a frontline with a lot of WHM, SUM, and a few other classes. It boils down to whoever use their LB better and sweep in to deal with a half-killed force.



I think most of those above problem can be fixed by:


-Making all LBs only affect 5 target at max, or the damage on surrounding target has less potency

-Same with Scholar's DoT.

-Color-code summons similar to Sage's LB barrier drop. Need more red Bahamut/blue phoenix

-Also make Phoenix more useful in flag defense. Regen and reduce damage for nearby allies, for example. I have an interesting idea: upon Phoenix drop, it heals and make nearby allies immune to damage/status effect for 2-3s (which will put a debuff that make you not able receive the immune buff for 10s to prevent spamming), which can help to cover retreat/bolster defense against focus-fire if use strategically.

-Not sure if PLD's capture-the-flag strategy it should be kept or should go away. If go away, perhaps PLD's LB should has less charge time instead. Or add a mobile Passage of Arms so that he can bolster defense for people standing behind him.



Do you have any other suggestions?

The biggest problem is actually none of these, but the general apathy and ignorance that tends to exist. People don't know / care about how to actually play through the modes and strategize properly. They're there for the XP.

I've been in groups with a handful of these so-called OP classes and we still lose.

I regularly play scholar and there are times I can get some good battle high going as people just don't seem to have their heal button handy, but I'll also have a target on my back from all the fear mongering:p

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

The biggest problem is actually none of these, but the general apathy and ignorance that tends to exist. People don't know / care about how to actually play through the modes and strategize properly. They're there for the XP.

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To be frank, I think this is more of a blame toward the dev for creating a content & then trying to appease the folks who do not enjoy said contents by luring them with carrot on the stick. It attracts all sort of individuals, including the ones with improper mindset to brace the contents.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To be frank, I think this is more of a blame toward the dev for creating a content & then trying to appease the folks who do not enjoy said contents by luring them with carrot on the stick. It attracts all sort of individuals, including the ones with improper mindset to brace the contents.

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The devs definitely aren't without blame, but as with the rest of the game, some effort should be made to actually learn things. It's way more fun that way.

None of those are a big issue. The big deciding factor for winning is group coordination. You'll lose more if your team is less coordinated and the opponent's team is more coordinated. That's normal, and the definition of skill difference (which can be translated directly from Ranked Crystalline Conflict matches).

Frontlines is basically the bigger version of CC that heavily emphasizes group coordination. However, it's also flexible because every player is not at the same level of skill that it creates a chaotic environment when players can't coordinate as well as the opposing team when they start doing their own thing. This allows certain jobs to excel as they have a stronger influence on small skirmishes (Ninja, MNK, SCH, SAM, DRG, RDM). I've been in very coordinated groups after queueing in solo - with a ton of different jobs on my alliance without repeat. From MCH, ninja, BRD, WHM, AST, SCH, SMN, WAR, GNB, SAM, DNC, RDM, etc. And the opposing teams had been running 5+ SMNs /SCHs with bahamut, but we still won. The difference? Group coordination. We beat them in tactics and objectives.

Some jobs have it easier in Frontlines but that's because they have different degrees of "group-coordination" focus. For jobs like DNC and Bard which require your team to take advantage of their buffs, if your team is running away after you use your Limit Break, then no amount of help will let you win the game. This pretty much applies to group call-outs for taking objectives as well. Group coordination skills require a group effort to take advantage of, and their impact can be much greater than other skills - provided that the team is using them at the right moments.

No matter what kind of Bahamuts they have, if you play around their weaknesses instead of letting them capitalize on their strengths, they can't become a huge threat. If you force the two opposing alliances to fight each other as your alliance take the objectives before cleaning them up in the aftermath of their clash, they won't get a lot of Battle High and become a threat.

There are many ways to win Frontlines because everyone's skill level is varied, but the number of players is high. Plus, you're fighting against real players rather than bots, so there's no "one strategy fits all" solution and requires a lot of adaptability on the fly.

The only time a "one strategy fits all" solution would work is because players don't think outside of charging head on to it - AKA turning your brain off and hoping for the best. Sure, it works well because people play casually in Frontlines, but that's no excuse to saying players who are trying harder by coordinating better should be punished as a result because you can still get a similar result as long as people coordinated with their teammates. If anything, that just means you want Ranked Frontlines.

Having AoE reduced to 5 targets is not a good solution. Not only can you not choose which of the 5 enemies you want to target in the tightly spaced AoE when players are grouped together, there's no guarantee your synchronized attacks (which is the purpose of group coordination) even work well because they can all hit the wrong targets. This just means if you want to play better, you start excluding jobs that cannot target who you want to kill - Aka jobs that have a stronger focus towards single target enemies. That directly defeats the purpose of having all jobs being viable imo.

Especially for SCH, whose burst damage isn't anywhere near lethal alone. Is there any point of playing SCH at that point? You can't guarantee the DoT you spread will hit the target who you intended to defeat, nor do you have CC to apply pressure to the enemy. Now, your attack also has a chance to hit the wrong target in a tightly grouped up space because of AoE limitations. Even if your attack hits the intended targets, there's no guarantee your allies would be able to attack the correct target either unless it's a single target skill. What's the point of even playing a SCH at that point when half your toolkit doesn't work as intended?

Frontline normally comes down to the amount of high vs low skilled players on the team. We all seen 'muh XP' sandbaggers, pieces of meat that don't press enough buttons, and the weirdo solo chasers that never compile any battle high in their lifetimes. If you're offended by this remark, it's probably a skill issue.

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

-Color-code summons similar to Sage's LB barrier drop. Need more red Bahamut/blue phoenix

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I would love this. OP is full of other good ideas. Good post.

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Originally Posted by technole

Frontline normally comes down to the amount of high vs low skilled players on the team. We all seen 'muh XP' sandbaggers, pieces of meat that don't press enough buttons, and the weirdo solo chasers that never compile any battle high in their lifetimes. If you're offended by this remark, it's probably a skill issue.

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Soon, coming to a third party tool near you on pc.... xD

TBH, I blacked out when I saw the usual suspects being listed. I have to talk about SCH and how assigning maximum targets is a bad idea.

Its strength lies in people grouping together on either side, whether you buff your team or try to damage others. I use Biolysis very sparingly and very strategically. Its max potency takes time to achieve and that's why it's as strong as it is. Any strike has to be precise and comes with the risk of being stopped in my tracks and quickly dealt with.

If you're having trouble with the DoT, then you need to look at that Recuperate skill and how accessible it is. I get most of my kills and assists when folks are distracted ;)

The skill doesn't need to be limited in targets, folks need to get more situationally aware.

Getting back to team friendly tactics, folks need to learn to stand by their scholar (and healers in general).

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)

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Originally Posted by Genz

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)

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Naw keep it. Im actually having more fun with this new pvp then old pvp. CC is perhaps the best direction they can go in. Quick 5-10 minute matches AND I get cool loot that I don't need to slave away in rank for? sign me up. Plus the new pvp moves are so much cooler then what pve got.

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Originally Posted by Genz

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)

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Be honest: It was more fun because you played a tank class and dragged / kicked people off ledges.

Old PvP was bloated with too many skills. It's perfect as it is now for fast-paced action.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

The biggest problem is actually none of these, but the general apathy and ignorance that tends to exist. People don't know / care about how to actually play through the modes and strategize properly. They're there for the XP.

I've been in groups with a handful of these so-called OP classes and we still lose.

I regularly play scholar and there are times I can get some good battle high going as people just don't seem to have their heal button handy, but I'll also have a target on my back from all the fear mongering:p

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The Bahamut/Laser Deathball laughs at your "it's a skill issue"

Sure, you keep telling yourself that a 40-50 seconds CD (if BRD LBs) in a 10 minute match where major objectives are typically contested at choke points where those LBs thrive is a "skill issue"

So lets say you hold back to avoid the layered LBs, then what? They just got a ton of free time uncontested on the objective, for certain maps that's enough to lock you out of the objective.

That's the problem we are referring to.

Zerg WHM/SMN deathball has a higher success rate if they play for objectives, because they have undisputed control over that objective and the only way to counter it is to use your own deathball and hit them first.

That's not skill, that's brain dead.

Only fix to SMN that comes to mind would be for their LB bar to recharge a bit slower.

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Originally Posted by Genz

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)

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A couple of pre 6.1 pvp whiner in my FC often complains how old healer holds too much power over a match. Good healer carries while bad healers griefs their team.

Now they get what they want: recuperate and purify for themselves—for every job. They should be happy right??

Nah. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

The Bahamut/Laser Deathball laughs at your "it's a skill issue"

Sure, you keep telling yourself that a 40-50 seconds CD (if BRD LBs) in a 10 minute match where major objectives are typically contested at choke points where those LBs thrive is a "skill issue"

So lets say you hold back to avoid the layered LBs, then what? They just got a ton of free time uncontested on the objective, for certain maps that's enough to lock you out of the objective.

That's the problem we are referring to.

Zerg WHM/SMN deathball has a higher success rate if they play for objectives, because they have undisputed control over that objective and the only way to counter it is to use your own deathball and hit them first.

That's not skill, that's brain dead.

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Skill issue. You were just avoiding the LBs instead of figuring out a way to strike back and zone the enemy.

Lots of ways to counter stacked LB
- multiple mitigations before engaging.
- Use SCH LB + Deployed Shields
- Use SCH's Biolysis Spread to get 10% damage reduction
- Use PLD LB
- Use SGE LB
- Use AST's LB
- Use RDM's Magick Barrier

- prevent them from being activated in succession by diving them and CCing them first
- Assassinate them (Ninja / MNK / MCH)
- Use WHM LB
- Use WAR's Primal Rend AoE Stun
- Use BLM's CC
- Use BRD's Silence
- Use RDM's Silence
- Use DNC's LB. Good timing is imperative, but you can definitely CC them before they can Bahamut if they are focused on trying to get Bahamut out.


- guard before re-engaging (positioning finesse and timing)

Just because it's simple to use a skill, doesn't mean there aren't ways to reduce the effect and capitalize on the fight. And like you said, if you know fights are going to be where there will be SMNs readying their Bahamuts, you can plan around it. Certain maps may be more difficult, but it's not impossible. It's only impossible when the enemy team can coordinate and your team can't coordinate to give a decent response.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Skill issue. You were just avoiding the LBs instead of figuring out a way to strike back and zone the enemy.

Lots of ways to counter stacked LB
- multiple mitigations before engaging.
- Use SCH LB + Deployed Shields
- Use SCH's Biolysis Spread to get 10% damage reduction
- Use PLD LB
- Use SGE LB
- Use AST's LB
- Use RDM's Magick Barrier

- prevent them from being activated in succession by diving them and CCing them first
- Assassinate them (Ninja / MNK / MCH)
- Use WHM LB
- Use WAR's Primal Rend AoE Stun
- Use BLM's CC
- Use BRD's Silence
- Use RDM's Silence
- Use DNC's LB. Good timing is imperative, but you can definitely CC them before they can Bahamut if they are focused on trying to get Bahamut out.


- guard before re-engaging (positioning finesse and timing)

Just because it's simple to use a skill, doesn't mean there aren't ways to reduce the effect and capitalize on the fight. And like you said, if you know fights are going to be where there will be SMNs readying their Bahamuts, you can plan around it. Certain maps may be more difficult, but it's not impossible. It's only impossible when the enemy team can coordinate and your team can't coordinate to give a decent response.

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Did you not see the issue there?

You listed a precise and coordinated set up to counter a braindead strategy that anyone can pull off with very little coordination and precision.

You're expecting 24 randoms to coordinate perfectly against deathball that just slaps shiny button.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Did you not see the issue there?

You listed a precise and coordinated set up to counter a braindead strategy that anyone can pull off with very little coordination and precision.

You're expecting 24 randoms to coordinate perfectly against deathball that just slaps shiny button.

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??? What precise coordination?

I just listed a bunch of ways you can counter it. Some are more tedious than others because it requires an opportunity and opening. Silencing / stunning / CCing ONE target to stop an LB or stagger them does not require ridiculous amount of coordination. Nor does it require a lot of coordination to tell your SGE to put up a LB to counter the incoming LBs. It just requires map awareness.

A SCH alone should NOT be able to handle 5+ LBs but can definitely do a lot of mitigation when played well.
So can an AST. 30% reduction with Macrocosmos is no joke.

A SCH + AST should be able to handle LBs as long as the team recuperates properly.

A mix of the above will have the same effect to stop or weaken the coordinated LB and either break its coordination or weaken it considerably to the point it's not a "deathball" as you described it to be.
A full set of above? Overkill. A complete waste of resources.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

??? What precise coordination?

I just listed a bunch of ways you can counter it. Some are more tedious than others because it requires an opportunity and opening. Silencing / stunning / CCing ONE target to stop an LB or stagger them does not require ridiculous amount of coordination. Nor does it require a lot of coordination to tell your SGE to put up a LB to counter the incoming LBs. It just requires map awareness.

A SCH alone should NOT be able to handle 5+ LBs.

A SCH + AST should be able to handle LBs as long as the team recuperates properly.
A mix of the above will have the same effect to stop or weaken the coordinated LB and either break its coordination or weaken it considerably to the point it's not a "deathball" as you described it to be.
A full set of above? Overkill. A complete waste of resources.

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It's far easier for the Deathball to execute their strategy than it is to counter it.

"Silence them"

You are in range of the WHM Stun now, the silence you threw won't have caught every WHM/SMN or they were not entirely dumb and purified immediately as they saw it coming.

"Guard"

2 frame wind up, the WHM LB stun is instant, tick rate in large scale will mess you up.

SCH LB

You're now an imp, goodbye shield effect.

The only true way to counter is

1. Run your own deathball
2. Pressure out their LBs in bad spots so they won't have them for objectives
3. Coordinate several LBs/CCs/etc

The issue is risk vs reward

SMN/WHM Deathball is low risk, high reward, thet will always have an easier time doing what they want to do versus a balanced team that will have to coordinate and likely use high risk plays to beat them.

To say "It's a skill issue" to me says "I don't understand balance"

Reason I didn't say BLM is because everyone knows they're just straight busted RN and having to use OP to counter OP just lends itself to how imbalanced Frontline is right now.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

It's far easier for the Deathball to execute their strategy than it is to counter it.

"Silence them"

You are in range of the WHM Stun now, the silence you threw won't have caught every WHM/SMN or they were not entirely dumb and purified immediately as they saw it coming.

"Guard"

2 frame wind up, the WHM LB stun is instant, tick rate in large scale will mess you up.

SCH LB

You're now an imp, goodbye shield effect.

The only true way to counter is

1. Run your own deathball
2. Pressure out their LBs in bad spots so they won't have them for objectives
3. Coordinate several LBs/CCs/etc

The issue is risk vs reward

SMN/WHM Deathball is low risk, high reward, thet will always have an easier time doing what they want to do versus a balanced team that will have to coordinate and likely use high risk plays to beat them.

To say "It's a skill issue" to me says "I don't understand balance"

Reason I didn't say BLM is because everyone knows they're just straight busted RN and having to use OP to counter OP just lends itself to how imbalanced Frontline is right now.

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BLM is overpowered right now, but even before 6.11a BLM has very powerful CC control. This is what made them so threatening. They are the job that create openings. They're just more overtuned now, but it's not as if you couldn't do that before. You just have to be a lot better to reach the skill ceiling of that job (which is good job design). Otherwise, Yoshi P wouldn't have been able to make it to Crystal tier if all Black mage had was damage.

I don't what to tell you if you don't think ahead about what to do after you walk in range of the enemy other than skill issue to be honest... I'm more confused why you're walking straight up to hit the enemy where the enemy WHM has direct vision of you and only you alone. I'm also confused why you are guarding after the enemy use their skill. Everyone who uses guard well knows you're supposed to proactively use it by anticipating attacks ahead of time. Using it later and getting CC'd after you got hit means you used Guard in a non-optimal timing, which lowers its effectiveness. This is where the finesse that separates good players and bad players for guarding. Heck, if the WHM hits you with the stun, even better. They just wasted their LB on one target, thereby making an opening for the rest of the alliance - assuming your party realizes this and can capitalize on it (again, skill issue).

And yes, Guard does block imp effect. I always intentionally bait the imp effect when I know they have a WHM when it's ideal for me. If you guarded as you got imped, you guarded way too late. Though as a SCH, you shouldn't even be walking that far up to get hit by WHM's Imp attack if you're targeting properly and staying farther away from the front to reinforce shields. Biolysis + Deployment Tactics has a huge range. Sounds like skill issue to me.

Just guard or purify if you know what to expect and then run back as your allies cover for you and go ahead. Think about what you're doing to get the best results. Sacrifice yourself if you have to just to create an opening if you think it's worth it. Deaths don't matter if your entire team wins out of it. Creating an opening means your team can also burst a player down if they are going to be caught off guard. This is the dynamic of PvP. Literally a skill issue (for your team or theirs) if they cannot react to the gameplay changes. If you want to just play PvP by using LBs, then there's no point in having different skills that can result in new strategies and new gameplay. Just because most people don't take advantage of it, doesn't mean PvP was designed poorly. Otherwise, why do people still play WAR or GNB when they can just all play the same job? The answer is: Fun, gameplay, strategy.

Also, you don't need to hit every enemy with CC either, just 1 target is enough. Another player can also contribute to disable the other SMNs. You're expecting a 1v5 kind of gameplay to disable SMN LBs, and that's not very feasible in a team-based game mode. Unless you're a SGE (LB prevent all damage outside of range, negating SMN entirely - but limited by range and charge time) or have a good number of SCH/AST/jobs to counter the number of Limit Breaks based on team comp, disabling one target is enough. It doesn't matter if you can't stop them entirely, all you have to do is weaken the effect of the LB, and - this is where a lot of jobs have their own ways to contribute to this. I think that's where you're not understanding that is the beauty and the dynamic of PvP gameplay.

And if you're not willing to take the gamble and risk to open in? If you're not willing to die? Then play around it (mitigation tactic to burn their Limit Breaks). If your team comp doesn't allow it though, then you should be looking or creating the opportunity to dive in because you'd otherwise lose to a more coordinated attack (and this isn't a game balance issue, it's team composition difference - and something people should be taking into account when fighting opposing teams to plan the right strategy -- just like how the standard SMN strategy is to use LB together because that's playing to their strength). Depending on the mode, you don't have to always capture the objective first, nor do you have to focus on killing the opposing team. Sometimes, delaying the enemy is enough.

I dunno what to tell you other than skill issue because this isn't a problem for me whenever I run into the 5+ SMN + WHM team comp, and I queue in solo majority of the time for Frontlines. I play with a bunch of different jobs and team comps that can execute this strategy in various ways. Sure, we won't always win because sometimes we're less coordinated but that just means the enemy team has better team synergy than our team. You can't do anything about having worse players who can't think of a strategy to counter it - as this is a casual mode. That's what Frontlines PvP is about. Skill difference.

Assuming the one true way to counter by "running your own deathball" because you can't execute the aforementioned strategies that are normally employed in Crystalline Conflict just means skill issue for being unable to execute a flexible strategy to suit your needs on the fly and need the simplest solution for your problem. It's only a [Balance] issue if there's no way to counter it - A.K.A. 6.11a Black mage being overtuned in both damage, defense, and CC that the only solution is to focus them down so they can't become a bigger threat.

Been having fun minus when in Frontlines where like 5 summoners use their LB together and your whole group dies with nothing to be able to respond to lol.. I think a full lb of damage makes sense and shouldn't be nerfed, as they need oomph, but perhaps a very short lasting buff after getting hit on lb to makes stacking Lb damage not so crazy. You can tell when there is an organized group over a discord like setting because you'll exist one second and be respawning the next each time you meet them (with their LB available).

Although to be honest that doesn't even happen that often. It's just "yeh.. sure oki.." once in the while that it does.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

wall of words talking about anything but what I said

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Balance issue does not mean the strategy is completely unbeatable, I don't know why you're going on this whole rant. BLM was excessively weak in CC for instance but that does not mean the job didn't have skilled players that stuck with it and got to Crystal rank.

It doesn't change the fact of balance.

If something is common, easy to do, has a very high success rate and wins much more than it loses? That's a balance issue.

Nothing to do with strategy, skill or the amount of hoops you're jumping through and mental gymnastics you're doing to try and tell yourself it's not.

It has a high play rate, a high success rate and wins more than it loses.

That means, it's not balanced.

Why did RDM and WAR take pretty substantial nerfs? Because they were not balanced.

Why did several jobs get buffed? Because they were not balanced.

Why has the dev team specifically talked about frontline, pointing the finger at this strategy?

Because it's not balanced.

Overpowered does not mean unbeatable, nobody would play anything else if it was unbeatable and every match would devolve into only those jobs and nothing else.

It means tipped in the favour of.

And your lack of understanding of that basic principle says while you think you know, like many others that claim to be "highly skilled", your knowledge of balance comes up found wanting.

As they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

In fact let me put this whole frontline balancing issue in a simple to understand context

Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2. A game absolutely notorious for some very, very broken and imbalanced things.

I'm sure many of you remember a perk by the name of Commando Pro?

I'm sure many of you were horrified when you came up against someone using it how they would seemingly teleport through your bullets, one shot you and run wild through your team because of how easy it was for the perk to take advantage of things like Marathon pro so they'd be in perma sprint and because P2P hosting, the server ticks were notoriously bad giving the knife wielder an insane hit register advantage.

There were people that tried to defend it, that tried to say "oh just use Martyrdom to counter it", "It's not that OP just L2P"

Commando pro has not existed in a call of duty game since.....well, until Vanguard and guess what? It's considered absolutely busted even in the modern game, 12 years on.

The people that tend to defend things like that tend to fall into two categories.

1. The Abuser. They know full well it's broken, they want to keep abusing it and your fun don't matter to them, they want to win and this gives them an easy way to do it.

2. The perpetually in denial. They don't want to accept anything in their favourite game can ever be imbalanced or abuseable, "everything is beatable!" They scream. "It's only a 50% win rate" they protest, while completely failing to notice their own team mates employed the very same strategy to win.

So the next time you see a poster that thinks they are somehow more knowledgeable in the games balance than the actual dev team.

Remember

People defended the existence and balance of Commando pro 12 years ago and still do to this very day.

Imagine expecting coordinated battles and strategies with 24 randoms lmao. Everyone listing hypothetical situations thatll never actually happen

For purify to actually work and not get screwed over cause of the server delay that's my only gripe with pvp right now

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Imagine expecting coordinated battles and strategies with 24 randoms lmao. Everyone listing hypothetical situations thatll never actually happen

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Try couple of Frontlines in JP data centers and then come back and see how much of a difference there is. Everyone is sticking together in JP and communicating/syncing LB's and listening to the call outs meanwhile here people just run around like headless chickens :p

The point isn't about coordinating or being skilled or whatever, it's Frontline, it is about big chaotic fights with 72 players, you will get all kinds of play there.


What i am glad is that Yoshi P did address the Limit Break issue in Frontline because right now it is stupid how you can get LB from not even fighting and how quickly you get, LBs are much much stroger than ever.

And of course purify/server ticks or delays and such but it is a general problem and not just in FL

Think current kits are fine for all jobs all they just really need to make adrenaline guage take far longer to max for majority of the jobs if not all...

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Balance issue does not mean the strategy is completely unbeatable, I don't know why you're going on this whole rant. BLM was excessively weak in CC for instance but that does not mean the job didn't have skilled players that stuck with it and got to Crystal rank.

It doesn't change the fact of balance.

If something is common, easy to do, has a very high success rate and wins much more than it loses? That's a balance issue.

Nothing to do with strategy, skill or the amount of hoops you're jumping through and mental gymnastics you're doing to try and tell yourself it's not.

It has a high play rate, a high success rate and wins more than it loses.

That means, it's not balanced.

Why did RDM and WAR take pretty substantial nerfs? Because they were not balanced.

Why did several jobs get buffed? Because they were not balanced.

Why has the dev team specifically talked about frontline, pointing the finger at this strategy?

Because it's not balanced.

Overpowered does not mean unbeatable, nobody would play anything else if it was unbeatable and every match would devolve into only those jobs and nothing else.

It means tipped in the favour of.

And your lack of understanding of that basic principle says while you think you know, like many others that claim to be "highly skilled", your knowledge of balance comes up found wanting.

As they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

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That's.. not how balance works? You're "balancing to the standard deviation" via winrates, rather than what a job's capable output can preform. If you were balancing to the standard deviation, then you should also know that's why PvP Black mage is getting reverted in 6.15. That's the primary reason why Yoshi P mentions PvP Black Mage was overtuned in Crystalline Conflict once patch 6.11a came out is because of the winrates, but after play-testing, he realized there wasn't such a need for those kinds of buffs because the job currently excels in the hands of a good player. AKA player skill issue for most players being unable to utilize the job's toolkit effectively. He mentions in the lodestone that they found out after play-testing the job, but it was too late to change it after patch 6.11a was ready to be released.