What's the logic for "dps meter"/statistics in PvP but not other content?

When you do PvP it keeps track of how much damage you do in a competitive environment. On one hand you can use it to see who is afk/etc and rightfully report them. On the other hand someone could get mad and harass someone for doing low damage and this person could get reported, this is the same logic for not having it in other content to avoid this...

So my question is why is this situation acceptable in PvP, which is more likely to create toxicity due to the competitive nature, but not in the other forms of content?

If I do 1m damage in PvP what is my takeaway from that? A pat on the back? Why is it there? Kills/Assists are being tracked for achievements so it could be useful seeing it per match but what about Deaths? Wouldn't seeing deaths encourage toxicity or discourage playing, for example the same reason why they have losses hidden I guess? I'm just being pedantic.

I guess my real question is what purpose is the stat tracking in matches for PvP serving that wouldn't serve the same USEFUL purpose for dungons, trials, and extremes?

Why couldn't they do a similar system where at the end of clearing the content it would pop up the same type of statistics, for example the statistics that are tracked by a certain other website. It wouldn't be available in real time so it would only matter if you actually manage to beat said content. Or at the very least only show your personal statistics if you really want to avoid toxicity but I think seeing the whole group is obviously better.

Now someone could be toxic after you clear if the whole party is shown, and that person would be reported, but that's exactly how it can already occur in PvP. So why not?

The other thing I would point out is why aren't the names/servers hidden in PvP if they truly wanted to avoid toxicity? I'm pretty sure this was a thing in the past, so if they cared wouldn't that same logic apply to this? To be clear I personally don't care about the names but just making a point.

TL : DR
I'm not trying to just have another topic suggesting to put "DPS meters" in the game, but more that why is it available for PvP, a place more prone to toxicity, but not the rest of the game? It clearly exists...

That's actually a great question.

I have seen a lot of toxicity in CC when people are doing low damage.

Because PvP is competitive. PvE is not meant to be competitive and judging by WoW, seeing eachother's damage makes it competitive. PvE is even competitive already in this game, but it's not allowed to be discussed in the game so anyone who ignores outside of the game doesn't have to feel like it's competitive.

In PvP you're getting direct feedback if you were doing good or not through damage done, healing done, assists, etc. As you should, because that's the feedback you need for improving.

Why PvE has no feedback at all aside from you dying to a boss enrage makes no sense to me, considering that those dps checks always exist and the devs obviously use tools to calculate the damage players can do to tune those checks, but we aren't allowed that information, to the frustration of everyone who would like to use those statistics for improving on themselves.

In reality there is no logic. Toxicity and harassment are not matter of wether information is available or not. It's a matter of moderation. If people get away with it, they will continue to do so. If people get away with being functionally afk because no one is allowed to tell them they suck at the game then they will continue to so.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Because PvP is competitive.

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In ff14 it's really not. They've done everything they can to soften that competiveness. You get lots of rewards even when losing, you can't communicate, you're strictly forbidden from taunting players who lose. You might as well be facing NPC's.
PvE is just as competitive in that you have world firsts that the devs follow and promote, shiny loot, Legend titles and mounts to show off. But neither are that competitive really.

It's a good question because its never been a problem in PvP. Players aren't quitting or whining because they had low damage in a CC and it made them feel bad. Nor is anyone abusing anyone else because they screenshotted their low dps after a match. It's basically been fine and caused no major issues. The other good question is why is it a rule and reportable to refuse to contribute and do your best in a PvP game, yet in PvE you can outright state you're going to play Ice Mage or 0 dps healer when nothing needs healing and it's perfectly acceptable.

They could easily add a similar system of showing your statistics after a Duty or Instance. PvP has proven it would be fine.

The difference is that they will remove them if people are toxic enough, there isn't really a logic reason its just damage control.

I assume the difference is
1. The chat functionality
2. The speed in which PvP matches take and the deaths / healing / damage can help improve your gameplay by telling what went wrong due to the existence of a ranked system.

It's not a cure-all to the solution, since it doesn't track skills used or guarded damage/mitigated damage as opposed to overhealing and wasted potential, but it's different from PvE since everything in PvP is unscripted and information on stats are heavily dependent on whether skirmishes last a long time or a very short time. That information is only used as a generic guideline if anything but it's up to the player themselves to figure out how much of that data can be used to enhance their play style and a rough guideline for commendations if you were tunneling in on the fight and don't know what was happening in combat.

Examples of things you can somewhat infer from stats: not backing away from taking lots of damage, not healing enough, doing a lot of damage but not getting any kills so it may mean damage is spread rather than focusing someone, not putting enough pressure, not securing any kills, etc. Some of those can't directly be seen in stats unless you yourself are aware what you have been doing. Sometimes your score may look terrible, but you could very well be MVP because of how much pressure you put on the enemy team - and the score doesn't reflect that.

To prevent toxicity, PvP only places the results at the end of the combat and has limited chat functionality. Do you want to move that into PvE as well? The results of the data may be fine if no one can talk about their stats after the dungeon is over to prevent toxicity, but the limited chat functionality doesn't really work as well when you want to explain mechanics in PvE. Especially in DF when people are failing the mechanics over and over again.

Honestly they should show the dps/heals/damage received at the end of every duty. I remember enjoying seeing how i did back in DCUO when thry showed the party's numbers at the end of the instance. really showed me when i went beast mode and when i was doing low. it really helped me improve myself and my gear. i know not everyone enjoys seeing those numbers but it would really solve the whole act issue. if they do implement this they need to fix/improve their report system to counter the toxicity that will come.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Because PvP is competitive.

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and yet i can see my allies dps, not just the people im competing with

a little window after a hard fight listing your dps, amount healed and death count would be fantastic, even if it was a toggle and just listed your own damage, not that of your party

I think it more has to do with potential harassment. I only pvp once a day and never look at the results. I genuinely don't care as I'm only there for exp or wolf marks. If they showed stats at the end of duties I personally wouldn't like it. I'm not a fan of things being a contest and there are a lot of people who would treat those stats as a contest. Having personal numbers that you can hide? Sure maybe. But then it would be a question of how people respond to that information being presented. Would the devs take it away if it created a more hostile experience? If they did then people would be even more upset. Seems like a tough situation and I'm not sure how to improve it.

It has to be also noted that there's no do-over for "failing" a pvp session. If you jump into any instanced pve content, minus potd/hoh, and wipe that content, you restart the encounter. This is usually the part where conversations start about who/what went wrong. In pvp, that encounter is final. Next encounter might be with complete new set of strangers, allies and competition alike so you can't go over what went wrong. Perhaps that's why they left this minimal parsing because devs knew there's not much the playerbase can do with it.

When would be considered over? After every wipe? After a party disband? After a full lockout?
There's no way to break up PvE content the same way a PvP match can be, with a final scoreboard after it's finished.
If you show it every after wipe then it's not over. If you show it after a completed clear, then what's the point? At that point everyone already beat the DPS check and it serves no point other than e-peen comparisons.
Everyone already cleared the content, they can clearly beat the DPS checks, so what's the point in going over who did what percentage of damage for that clear?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

When would be considered over? After every wipe? After a party disband? After a full lockout?

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after clear or party ko

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If you show it after a completed clear, then what's the point?

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personal improvement, same reason as pvp

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

Everyone already cleared the content, they can clearly beat the DPS checks, so what's the point in going over who did what percentage of damage for that clear?

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make it a toggle, like the duty record function

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

When would be considered over? After every wipe? After a party disband? After a full lockout?
There's no way to break up PvE content the same way a PvP match can be, with a final scoreboard after it's finished.

If you show it every after wipe then it's not over. If you show it after a completed clear, then what's the point? At that point everyone already beat the DPS check and it serves no point other than e-peen comparisons.
Everyone already cleared the content, they can clearly beat the DPS checks, so what's the point in going over who did what percentage of damage for that clear?

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That's the point of this thread to be honest. It's the fact that PvP shows it and by the literal same logic there is NO REASON to since the match is over and done with, but they do. There are of course reasons people would want to see them obviously, which goes back to the question of if it's fine in PvP why isn't it fine in the other content.

It is implied that there IS a reason they are showing it in PvP, so shouldn't that same reason apply to PvE? The argument about the toxicity it would cause should be rightfully applied to PvP, especially given it's nature, but it's clearly not. And if that toxicity is moderated with reports, then it shouldn't be an issue with dealing with it if it comes up in PvE when that's how it is treated for PvP.

As for why should it be shown in PvE after a clear, for the same reasons other sources are using this information already. Maybe you want to see how fast you can clear and improve, like speed kills. Maybe you want to keep track of your personal dps and see if your doing better. Or maybe you have a group and want to compare team compositions.

Which brings me back to the point of why is it in PvP then? Or why does PvP show your whole party and enemies if the only answer is "personal growth"? And again, why is it ok in PvP but not PvE if the whole groups are displayed for the world to see?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

When would be considered over? After every wipe? After a party disband? After a full lockout?
There's no way to break up PvE content the same way a PvP match can be, with a final scoreboard after it's finished.
If you show it every after wipe then it's not over. If you show it after a completed clear, then what's the point? At that point everyone already beat the DPS check and it serves no point other than e-peen comparisons.
Everyone already cleared the content, they can clearly beat the DPS checks, so what's the point in going over who did what percentage of damage for that clear?

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From a personal perspective in raids, I would like to see it after a clear so I can know whether I am pulling my own weight amongst my team. I am playing with my friends and I don't want them to be dragging me across the finish line, I want to be running alongside them... and without knowing my numbers, it's hard to be sure whether that's the case or not.

Results are after the game is over and practically every player has already left the instance, so that avoids potential harassment.

Also we are taking PvP jobs here and not PvE. So you don't have the same array of skills and engagement like you do in PvE. You'll go through periods of no damage/healing in Secure or Onsal.

Damage in PvP isn't the full story. You can rack up a lot of kills with less damage because you are a finisher. You could be an assist leader because you put up a lot of damage due to CC, but don't get as many kills.

Damage taken in PvP doesn't tell the full story, maybe you were engaged a lot. You can take a lot of damage and still be top in K/D ratio.

K/D/A ratio is really all that matters in terms of contribution. Not damage per-se.

At this point you should honestly advocate for an FFLogs-like overview of all statistics. What are you going to do with a DPS number? You'll know you messed up, but will you remember when? PvE content isn't the same as PvP with a few buttons and unpredictability that can modify your rotation a bit. Would be better to get every crumb of information rather than just "here's how much you did, GL figuring out what bit it was you could improve at".

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

At this point you should honestly advocate for an FFLogs-like overview of all statistics. What are you going to do with a DPS number? You'll know you messed up, but will you remember when? PvE content isn't the same as PvP with a few buttons and unpredictability that can modify your rotation a bit. Would be better to get every crumb of information rather than just "here's how much you did, GL figuring out what bit it was you could improve at".

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Honestly... what I really want is a built-in personal dps meter that only shows your own personal performance but that you can export to a text log so you can use tools to analyze it...

But I'll settle for anything we can talk the team into giving us. lol

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Originally Posted by Elesh

Honestly... what I really want is a built-in personal dps meter that only shows your own personal performance but that you can export to a text log so you can use tools to analyze it...

But I'll settle for anything we can talk the team into giving us. lol

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TBH it'll be futile to make it personal. Groups will demand your stats anyway. If they ever go through with it they'll keep it public I feel. But yeah, such a tool would be awesome.

You can have the highest number of kills in CC or FL and still lose the match because you ignored the objectives or traded kills.
Similarly you can heal like a boss and put up great damage but get no kills, but you stuck with your team and got a high number of assists and a low number of deaths. maybe your team won, maybe they lost, depending upon cc or FL, but you can look at their deaths to see how they did.

I don't see why there wouldn't be a personal log that would be displayed in PVE, for % active, deaths, skills, overhealing, and damage.

By the way, the discussion about which is more toxic is moot, yes there can be toxicity in PVP, however that also exists in PVE. It is perfectly possible to be competitive in PVP without being "toxic" just as there are many extremely skilled PVErs that are not in the least toxic.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You can have the highest number of kills in CC or FL and still lose the match because you ignored the objectives or traded kills.
Similarly you can heal like a boss and put up great damage but get no kills, but you stuck with your team and got a high number of assists and a low number of deaths. maybe your team won, maybe they lost, depending upon cc or FL, but you can look at their deaths to see how they did.

I don't see why there wouldn't be a personal log that would be displayed in PVE, for % active, deaths, skills, overhealing, and damage.

By the way, the discussion about which is more toxic is moot, yes there can be toxicity in PVP, however that also exists in PVE. It is perfectly possible to be competitive in PVP without being "toxic" just as there are many extremely skilled PVErs that are not in the least toxic.

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Ya, there's toxicity everywhere. While it is generally true that once direct competition becomes involved, peoples' emotions become more invested in it which can lead to an increase in negativity... toxicity is impossible to avoid anytime you get a group of people in the same place. Whether it's caused by disagreements, stress, or other factors... it's unavoidable. Just gotta deal with it as it comes.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If you show it after a completed clear, then what's the point? At that point everyone already beat the DPS check and it serves no point other than e-peen comparisons.

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There's no e-peen comparison because there's no one to show off to. The Duty's over. You can't whip those numbers out and wave them about in public.

It would be purely for personal improvement or motivation. If you did badly compared to the other party members, you know something is up with your gameplay and it's a helpful indicator without anyone being rude to you. If you did really well, you have the satisfaction that your group will see you contributed, but you can't abuse it to rub it in or harass other members because the Duty is over. It's just a small motivation to push your best.

It basically works that way in PvP and there's no reason it wouldn't be similar in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Elena_Farron

In PvP you're getting direct feedback if you were doing good or not through damage done, healing done, assists, etc. As you should, because that's the feedback you need for improving.

Why PvE has no feedback at all aside from you dying to a boss enrage makes no sense to me, considering that those dps checks always exist and the devs obviously use tools to calculate the damage players can do to tune those checks, but we aren't allowed that information, to the frustration of everyone who would like to use those statistics for improving on themselves.

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Because it will just lead to a toxic environment. Yoshi said this because he was an avid WoW player and seen it a lot there. Yes the ToS is against harassment of any kind but its better to prevent that then just open the flood gates.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Because PvP is competitive. PvE is not meant to be competitive and judging by WoW, seeing eachother's damage makes it competitive. PvE is even competitive already in this game, but it's not allowed to be discussed in the game so anyone who ignores outside of the game doesn't have to feel like it's competitive.

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Then why do savage/extreme raids have enrage timers?

We need a way to tell if someone is unfit for the content, or this content needs to have no enrages

(preferably the former)

IMO make it so Stone, sky, sea is -mandatory- to clear before entering the raids

The devs have no idea what they are doing in PVP.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

The devs have no idea what they are doing in PVP.

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....do you mean they should remove the kda screen at the end or are you just lost

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

....do you mean they should remove the kda screen at the end or are you just lost

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The question of the thread was were the logic was. A lack of logic can be explained by not having a real idea what to do with pvp.

Probably because it's pvp and they're not expecting people to fight over it, especially at the end of the match. Unless it gets incredibly out of hand and they feel that there's a lot of toxicity that's stemming directly from the end match scoreboard they won't do anything.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Probably because it's pvp and they're not expecting people to fight over it

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they literally took out party chat because it was so toxic

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Then why do savage/extreme raids have enrage timers?

We need a way to tell if someone is unfit for the content, or this content needs to have no enrages

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When I say PvE is not competitive, I mean that there is not competition between players, but there is competition between the team of players and the NPC. But an NPC is not real, so it's not as if the NPC is judging you like it would be if it was a player.

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IMO make it so Stone, sky, sea is -mandatory- to clear before entering the raids

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At least being able to set it as a requirement in PF would help.

Wait, we use logic?

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

There's no e-peen comparison because there's no one to show off to. The Duty's over. You can't whip those numbers out and wave them about in public.

It would be purely for personal improvement or motivation. If you did badly compared to the other party members, you know something is up with your gameplay and it's a helpful indicator without anyone being rude to you. If you did really well, you have the satisfaction that your group will see you contributed, but you can't abuse it to rub it in or harass other members because the Duty is over. It's just a small motivation to push your best.

It basically works that way in PvP and there's no reason it wouldn't be similar in PvE.

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I would love to have something like this in-game because I'm a console pleb and need to rely on other people uploading logs; But personal improvement/motivation is likely only to be the case for a very small amount of people, and I imagine that small amount of people (e.g. me) are already trying to improve as much as possible.

The "utopia" would be that "bad" players realize they're bad and try to improve, but in my experience, bad players have no intention of improving, no matter how much you throw it into their face.

As a person that, again, would love to have something like this, I don't see much positive value and plenty of negatives with adding it. If there are people who are under performing, the constant "reminder" of it may end up causing them to quit the game.

I think the main reason why it's "ok" in PvP is because it's not part of the main content, it's side-content. But, I don't know how they justify it otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Elena_Farron

In PvP you're getting direct feedback if you were doing good or not through damage done, healing done, assists, etc. As you should, because that's the feedback you need for improving.

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Yeah, pretty much this. Sometimes it's hard for players to gauge how they're doing without such a tool.