Some of the SAM discussion referring to kenki as just a Shinten gauge got me thinking about job gauges, specifically resource bars that fill up incrementally and are then spent - not timers - so this thread is to summarize and discuss such resources for DPS jobs.
DRG has 1:
1) Firstminds' Focus can only be spent on Wyrmwind Thrust - no choice at all.
RPR has 2:
1) Soul Gauge can be spent on Blood Stalk (ST), Grim Swathe (AOE), or Gluttony (better than Blood Stalk for ST and better than Grim Swathe for AOE, but has a 60s cooldown) - Blood Stalk and Grim Swathe have mutually exclusive use cases, but Gluttony provides an optimization opportunity (albeit only once a minute).
2) Shroud Gauge can only be spent on Enshroud - no choice at all.
MNK has 1:
1) Chakra can be spend on The Forbidden Chakra (ST) or Enlightenment (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
SAM has 3:
1) Kenki can be spent on Shinten (ST), Senei (ST, better than Shinten, but has a 120s cooldown), Kyuten (AOE), Guren (AOE, better than Kyuten, but has a 120s cooldown), or movement abilities - prioritizing Senei/Guren when they're available offers an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 2 minutes), but otherwise the spenders are mutually exclusive with a sidenote for the movement abilities not being free, however the cost of the movement abilities is so low that it doesn't require mindful pooling, so doesn't require meaningful decision-making.
2) Sen can be spent on Higanbana (ST, sometimes also useful in multi-target encounters), Tenka Goken (AOE), or Midare Setsugekka (ST), with optimization opportunities due to both Higanbana and Midare Setsugekka being used in ST and Higanbana sometimes being used in multi-target encounters as well.
3) Meditation can be spent on Shoha (ST) or Shoha II (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
NOTE: Prior to 6.1, Kaiten provided optimization opportunities in both ST and AOE situations by vying for priority against Shinten and Kyuten respectively.
NIN has 1:
1) Ninki Gauge can be spent on Bhavacakra (ST), Hellfrog Medium (AOE), or Bunshin (better than Bhavacakra for ST and better than Hellfrog Medium for AOE, but has a 90s cooldown) - Bhavacakra and Hellfrog Medium have mutually exclusive use cases, but Bunshin provides an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 1.5m).
BDR has 1 during The Wanderer's Minuet:
1) Repertoire can only be spent on Pitch Perfect - no choice at all.
MCH has 2:
1) Heat Gauge can only be spent on Hypercharge - no choice at all.
2) Battery Gauge can only be spent on Automaton Queen - no choice at all.
DNC has 2:
1) Fourfold Feathers can be spent on Fan Dance (ST) or Fan Dance II (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Esprit Gauge can only be spent on Saber Dance - no choice at all.
BLM has 1, arguably 2:
1) Polyglot can be spent on Xenoglossy (ST) or Foul (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Mana actually matters for BLM and the entire core of their kit revolves around optimizing its usage - this is far and away the most complex gauge found in any job despite it being a generic resource.
SMN has 1:
1) Aetherflow can be spent on Fester (ST) or Painflare (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
RDM has 2, but it spends as 1:
1) Black and White Mana can be spent on the Riposte combo chain (ST) or Moulinet (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases.
In short, the "Shinten gauge" concept is par for the course - SAM still features some priority-based optimization with sen despite it being effectively removed from kenki, but otherwise, every DPS job with the exceptions of RPR and NIN has absolutely no priority-based optimization opportunities with their resource gauges.
To be clear, saying that this is par for the course is not condoning this design.
Prior to 6.1, SAM was the only DPS job that had priority-based optimization with 2 different resources - now none do unless you want to count Senei/Guren, but I'd argue that those shouldn't count since they just get used with Ikishoten anyway - there's no decision-making or even independent cooldown-tracking involved.
Prior to 6.1, SAM was the only DPS job whose resource-based priorities shifted more than once per minute - now none do.
They should have been striving to bring nuance to all DPS jobs' resource gauges, but instead of bringing the others up, they brought SAM down. Initially I assumed it was to simplify and homogenize SAM, but if that was their overarching design goal, then RPR wouldn't have launched with Gluttony - it doesn't make sense.
If I overlooked something or misrepresented something, please let me know.
Thoughts?
Per suggestion from xAFROx, a summary of tanks and healer as well:
PLD has 1, arguably 2:
1) Oath Gauge can be spent on Holy Shelton (generally used if you have agro) or Cover (generally used if you don't have agro) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Mana can be spent on Clemency (large self-heal or large targeted heal that also heals self for half as much), Holy Spirit (ST that also heals self), or Holy Circle (AOE that also heals self) - Holy Spirit and Holy Circle are mutually exclusive use cases, and using Clemency is generally avoided.
WAR has 1:
1) Beast Gauge can be spent on Fell Cleave (ST) or Decimate (AOE) - mutually exclusive use cases. Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone are just replacement skills during Nascent Chaos - they're basically just Fell Cleave and Decimate still but hit harder.
DRK has 1, arguably 2:
1) Blood Gauge can be spent on Bloodspiller (ST), Quietus (AOE). or Living Shadow (better than Bloodspiller for ST and better than Quietus for AOE, but has a 120s cooldown) - Bloodspiller and Quietus are mutually exclusive use cases, but Living Shadow offers an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 2 minutes).
2) Mana can be spent on Edge of Shadow (ST), Flood of Shadow (AOE), or The Blackest Night (defensive) - Edge of Shadow and Flood of Shadow are mutually exclusive use cases, but The Blackest Night introduces meaningful decision-making and resource management.
GNB has 1:
1) Cartridges can be spent on Burst Strike (ST), Fated Circle (AOE), the Gnashing Fang combo (better for ST than Burst Strike but has a 30s cooldown - unsure how it compares to Fated Circle in multi-target situations), or Double Down (better than Burst Strike for ST and better than Fated Circle for AOE - unsure about priority compared to the Gnashing Fang combo) - this is a relatively complex gauge that I'm not an expert on, so hopefully someone else can chime in here. In ST, prioritizing Gnashing Fang over Burst Strike is an optimization opportunity (albeit only once every 30s), and likewise, in ST, Double Down provides an optimization opportunity over Burst Strike despite costing 2 cartridges instead of 1 (albeit only once a minute). In AOE, Double Down is an optimization over Fated Circle despite costing 2 cartridges instead of 1 (albeit only once a minute). I'm unsure what the optimization is between the Gnashing Fang combo and Double Down for ST given their differing costs and the fact that one is a combo and the other is a single GCD. I'm also unsure what the optimization is between the Gnashing Fang combo and Fated Circle in multi-target situations. That said, the fact that those optimizations aren't immediately apparently puts the nuance of the cartridge job gauge far beyond most, even without fully comprehending it.
WHM has 2:
1) Lilies can be spent on Afflatus Solace (ST heal) or Afflatus Rapture (AOE heal) - mutually exclusive use cases.
2) Blood Lily can only be spent on Afflatus Misery - no choice at all.
SCH has 2:
1) Aetherflow can be spent on Energy Drain (ST dps and small self-heal), Lustrate (ST heal), Sacred Soil (AOE damage reduction and regen, 30s cooldown), Indomitability (AOE heal, 30s cooldown), or Excogitation (better ST heal than Lustrate, but has a 45s cooldown). This is another job I'm not very familiar with, so if anyone can chime in, that'd be great. Without knowing the job well though, these abilities appear to be mutually exclusive use cases with the exception of Excogitation being an optimization opportunity compared to Lustrate (albeit on a 45s cooldown).
2) Faerie Gauge can only be spent on Aetherpact - no choice at all.
AST has 1:
1) Astrosigns can only be spent on Astrodyne - no choice at all, however there is significant consideration that goes into the acquisition of astrosigns even if there's no choice in how to spend them.
SGE has 2:
1) Addersgall can be spent on Druochole (ST heal), Taurochole (better for ST heal than Druochole and also provides damage reduction, but has a 45s cooldown), Ixochole (AOE heal, 30s cooldown), or Kerachole (AOE damage reduction and regen, 30s cooldown) - mutually exclusive use cases. I wouldn't consider Taurochole an optimization opportunity over Druochole because it's better to save the damage reduction for when it's actually useful than to try to optimize for an extra 100 potency that might end up being overhealing anyway.
2) Addersting can only be spent on Toxikon II - no choice at all.
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05-26-2022, 07:04 AMcjbeagleDPS resource gauges - bring back Kaiten, and improve other DPS too.
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05-26-2022, 08:53 AMxAFROx
I'd extend the matter of gauges being underutilized to all job roles.
SCH only has the healing tether to my knowledge. Can't comment on SGE personally since I haven't tried it yet. WAR seems relatively inoffensive as it currently is. PLD seemed to be lacking any sort of engaging abilities tied to gauge iirc. It only mainly uses Shelton as a main tank and intervention or whatever the name is as an off tank. Cover being tied to the gauge seems a bit weird to me since it still has a really long cooldown, but I suppose that's to ensure it doesn't start to cheese through fight mechanics even easier?
DRG and BLM gauge used to be something actively maintained so it wouldn't fall off, but those have since become traits that auto activate.
RPR gauge seems fine as it builds pretty fast and easily, so no comments on that.
GNB cartridges seems fine for now. With the addition of Double Down, I think it makes sense. Under the typical design of jobs with big aoe buttons, it'll likely receive another multiple cartridge spending single target button next.
As for SAM, I think kenki works fine pre-6.1 but if they intend to keep it the way it is going further, then Meditation should be expanded on.
-On that note, I think expanding the stack count to a minimum of 5 and offering a dedicated Meditation skill button would work well enough as a compromise to all the people debating the idea of Shoha 1 and 2 staying separate vs being combined. A stack of 3 would allow for Shoha 1 and a full stack would allow for Shoha 2 as it already exists needing a target to be used. It would allow for further iteration without increasing the amount of buttons and would make sense thematically, being similar to the way the iaijutsu button works with Sen.
But regarding job resources, many are rather one note currently. More nuance would be appreciated for all of them. -
05-26-2022, 10:17 AMRuminous
At this point, talking about kenki is pointless because we're basically addressing the issues with a now-broken machine of the devs' doing. The job itself either needs its ability to do more with the gauge that isn't relentlessly spamming an ability or slowing down the rate at which kenki is gained. Part of why most of the other gauges work is you don't get the abilities as frequently because their cost to use is higher. Samurai's shinten is different due to its cost, which increases its spammability. It's why we need either a true rework of samurai, or kaiten to be returned.
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05-26-2022, 11:52 AMcjbeagleAs you wish!Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
Absolutely agreed - bringing back Kaiten would reintroduce nuance to kenki, and sen already has nuance, so the logical target for iteration is meditation, which currently has none whatsoever - not even the ability to pool it for timing optimization.Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
Half the point of talking about kenki is to illustrate how shallow it is without Kaiten, which bolsters the argument to have Kaiten brought back. I don't think samurai needs a rework, but I do think Kaiten needs to be returned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruminous
I agree that Shinten spam is only egregious because of how often you use it, however even if it was much less frequent, it would still be a boring gauge - better than Shinten spam, sure, but still boring and mindless - just less frequent.
A secondary concern with Shinten being less frequent (assuming Kaiten stays gone) is the impact that would have on samurai's APM, which I'd say is a big part of their job identity.
Kaiten + Shinten provided high APM without feeling tedious because of the variety and situational priority - we need that back - if APM tanks, that'd be another massive blow to the job.
Kenki (and a ton of other job gauges imo) need nuance - Kaiten provided that for samurai, and we need it back, and while they're at it, maybe they could spice up some other jobs as well. -
05-26-2022, 12:11 PMRuminousPart of the reason I've said "rework samurai" is because of kaiten's removal. If the job was reverted to 6.08, then we're back to where we are. The machine works again, we move on. But without kaiten, the job is, as I've said in other threads, a discount half-assed monk that has to spam an oGCD ability because of how its designed. To me, that's the flaw of the job currently. We're sitting on a lack of identity pretending the job has one when it clearly doesn't. So if we're moving forward on the assumption that kaiten wont make a return, something else would need to be done with samurai to give it a different feeling and flow than just "slower monk because easier to balance".Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbeagle
Which, the reason the other classes with gauges work is the rest of the kit is designed to compliment the gauge and the abilities from it aren't very spammable. With samurai, shinten will often be within your top 3 damage dealt over the course of a boss fight simply due to its frequency of use. And for all those people cheering on the kaiten removal because it "removes bloat", it's still the literal same amount of APM for a lesser desired result, and now you just look like a jackass stabbing everything in an overhead face stab with a katana, a sword not explicitly made for stabbing. I crept into the visuals of shinten, but point is, what we have currently with 6.1 and the kenki gauge is a problem that spawned because of the loss of kaiten. Which again, as I've stated before, necessitates a full rework of samurai. Otherwise, well, enjoy your braindead easy class I guess? -
05-26-2022, 12:14 PMVentVanitas
I would love to see the melee job gauges be less homogenized. I have been for years screaming about how terribly designed MNK's Chakra is, and every time I see someone talk about the job and pretend like it isn't an issue makes me die more on the inside every day.
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05-26-2022, 12:15 PMcjbeagleAh, I see - with that clarification, I agree 100%!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruminous
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05-26-2022, 12:25 PMcjbeagleJust based on the storyline I would expect MNK to have 7 light chakra and 7 dark chakra...I have no idea how they ended up with 5 of one color instead of 7 of two colors each.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
I totally agree with you though - imo it's the worst job gauge in the entire game if for no other reason than because you have no control over timing.
You don't control how fast it builds up, and once you fill it up you have to use it immediately because you can't hold more than cost of use, leaving little room for skill expression - just "use it as soon you can", which makes it basically just a cooldown in terms of use, except worse because the timer is variable, obfuscated, and stops ticking during downtime. -
05-26-2022, 12:38 PMRuminous
Lastly, because this is the thing that's often not discussed and I just remembered it, a majority of samurai's problems stemmed from their rng system of hits. You can do four types of hits: hit, direct hit, critical hit, direct critical hit. That is a lot of rng. Quite a bit, in fact. Why do #2 and #4 exist at all? Yeah, I love the big numbers too, but this is the real problem and why samurai got a lot of its potency cut out from it is because of this system. As well as spawning other problems down the road too. So...Critical hit as a stat is a major concern as well given that it double dips (adds % chance and % damage) with the more you got...Which makes it the king of stats for nearly everyone out there. Many gear best in slots are often about how much crit you can stack without tanking everything too much, or just going hard on crit and not caring about other stats.
So, I think the removal of direct hit/direct critical hits would help curve out a lot of the massive variance in damage. Heaven's Eye materia, with direct hit being removed, could be repurposed to increase ability based damage (not GCD actions), or something. I hadn't quite thought that one through currently but the point still stands, four flavors of damage and how critical hit as a stat works is the true culprit here. -
05-26-2022, 01:23 PMcjbeagleSlight correction, but direct is 1.25x, and the crit multiplier varies based on your rating - if I remember right it's 1.4x with 0 rating from gear and is around 1.6x with good gear (but 1.4x * 1.6x is still 2x for direct crit).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruminous
Regardless though, I still think their crusade against variance is totally misguided. I know you were in the thread where this is from, but for those who weren't, here's some fun math from a thread where we were talking about Midare crit variance:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbeagle
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05-26-2022, 04:33 PMRuminous
Thank you for the corrections, I just rounded up to the nearest tenth. Anyhow, there's a lot of different things you can do that causes lots of fluctuations on damage. It's one ability mentioned there, but the full kit can be that drastic dps swing - and that's what I think they're trying to look at. Regardless, I'm leaning on this as the source of why they hacked the samurai kit apart. Whether or not you agree with the why's, this is what I'm guessing on with the talk going from button bloat to variance to whatever.
I don't think the variance is that out of control mind you, but four different flavors of hits is quite a lot from what I'm used to seeing in games like these. -
05-26-2022, 10:05 PMxAFROx
On the topic of expanding Meditation, I think with how frequently we tend to get an iaijutsu out, 5 stacks would be a good starting point, but I would suggest allowing Senei and Guren to add a Meditation stack as well if they were to expand on the idea as I mentioned in my previous post.
Aside from that, I don't think I have much else I can throw in for discussion. I play on console and use controller, so I can't really speak to the idea of numbers or analyze the variance. All I know is my combos used to do about 10-18k on a target as I'd see that flash above their body and my midare used to do about 24-40k whenever I cared to look above the target.
I guess that kind of proves the variance thing the devs pointed to, but then why flatten it all to be so low afterwards? WAR can hit anywhere up from 50k to 90k with an inner chaos if other players are to be believed and that's absurd. I mean, that's awesome, but absurd when you put into perspective that dps isn't reaching those numbers.
Currently, when I look above a target I'm seeing combos do about 8-18k and midare 21-23k. And tenka goken got hit hard with the nerf. It does just as much as my aoe combo. It does the same as kyuten. It's literally not worth using in dungeons unless you'd rather use shoha 2 instead of quickly using kyuten over and over again which, unlike shinten, does at least flow well with the gcd attack animations since it's a meaty spin move like the rest of the aoe generators.
All in all, I think a reversion would be the best start and from there, they consider reworking the job in a way that doesn't fundamentally change the identity. SAM was always the job that excels in burst, don't take that away to make us the consistent MNK. rng is a part of these things and if there's no more rng, then the buildup better still be rewarding which currently it is not. -
05-27-2022, 01:55 AMcjbeagleI kinda like the idea of Third Eye giving meditation instead of kenki as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
For what it's worth, my DNC crits for around 70k with Technical Finish in casual environments (no coordinated buffs for burst). I've heard that in ideal conditions, NIN's Hyosho Ranryu crits for over 100k, and I have no reason to doubt that.Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
Meanwhile, my SAM, who has significantly better gear than my DNC, usually crits for around 25k with its big hitters.
Here's the thing though (part 1):
It's actually completely reasonable that SAM doesn't hit as big numbers as other jobs because we get to do it way more often than other jobs.
Using DNC as an example, they get to use Technical Finish once every 2m, Starfall Dance once every 2m, and Standard Finish ~4 times every 2m, so 6 "big hitters" every 2m.
Meanwhile, SAM gets to Ogi once every 2m, which hits twice, and also uses Midare roughly 10 times in that timeframe, so 12 "big hitters" every 2m.
Given that SAM swings big twice as often as DNC, it's totally reasonable that those big swings aren't going to do as much per swing.
Here's the thing though (part 2):
Aside from actually removing elements of randomization, the best way to normalize random sampling is by increasing the sample size, which is to say longer combat length or...spread the big burst across more swings...which is what SAM was already doing.
If they really wanted to mitigate crit randomization, they'd be targeting abilities that do massive damage in one swing - not stuff like Ogi Namikiri that is 2 swings by design or Midare, which is already used so often that the variance averages out naturally.
Yeah, I've been curious about that - I find myself leaning further and further towards Kyuten spam just because the positioning requirements for Tenka Goken are so oppressive now - sure, a cast bar standing in the middle of an enemy pack - that sounds safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
I've never liked Tenka Goken, but it's definitely worse now than it was before. Thankfully Kyuten spam feels pretty good thanks to its animation and SFX.
Agreed - I'm a fan of some tasteful RNG, but I'd also be okay without it if our big hitters hit big, but they don't - the entire kit is designed around building up resources and then dumping those resources on meaty burst, but our burst isn't meaty anymore. Ultimately it comes back to Kaiten - we were used to burning 20 kenki and 3 sen for big burst, and now we're seeing auto-crits that crit for less than non-crits did before, and I've seen a lot of people complain about the potency changes as a result, but the actual difference is the lack of Kaiten - nobody would care about potency going from 660 to 600 because of auto-crit if we still had Kaiten to buff that 600 to 900.Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
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05-27-2022, 02:10 AMKabooa"Other players", huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
Sounds like those other players need to do some homework.
That's anywhere from 100-350% higher than what is currently achieveable without some encounter specific / unsynced funkery going on. -
05-27-2022, 06:12 AMRuminous
I've never hit primal rends or inner chaos that high, that's for sure. I'm not full i600 on warrior but I am close to it. Especially since tanks do -20% damage baseline.
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05-27-2022, 06:18 AMxAFROx*shrug*Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
I haven't leveled WAR this xpac yet. I'm working on some other roles as GNB is my main tank job currently. DRK I'm leveling for glam and because I have a retainer set to DRK.
But whether I'm hearing accurately or not, the main point I meant from it is that midare is pretty weak in comparison to these other jobs.
cjbeagle just pointed out a good point though about frequency of use. So I suppose I can accept that. I just wish the job wasn't altered so suddenly, mainly.
But this thread is mainly about gauge and resource, so I'll throw back to the idea of Meditation.
On one hand, I can see Third Eye making a lot of sense thematically and in practice for giving a stack of Meditation. It would be another form of reward for mitigating unavoidable damage properly without altering the manner of play.
But on the other hand, Third Eye offering a stack of Meditation would make capping stacks pretty fast, and is likely why it wasn't tied together anytime before.
Third Eye is available every 15 seconds, so while raid-wides aren't so frequent in most cases, it certainly makes the opener quicker what with using ogi/kaeshi and midare/kaeshi, coupled with higanbana somewhere in all that. It means there'd be a fourth source of Meditation gain in the first 20 seconds when you can already cap in that time frame.
A bit iffy, imo, but a good start to expanding the resource if they increase the max count. -
05-27-2022, 06:19 AMxAFROxPretty sure tank damage was changed in ShB, but I digress. I probably have the wrong number in mind now that I'm reading a DNC value on the same page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruminous
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05-27-2022, 09:54 AMRuminous
Inner Chaos's potency is 650 right now on a direct auto crit. Basically 10 potency higher than midare setsugekka's is. But yeah, I sure do wish I was hitting them for 90k!
Anyway, yeah, making a third eye hit give a shoha stack would be nice. Though again, I think we should talk about a rework if we're not getting 6.08 back. Not to say I don't think new things would be nice, but we're either trying to jury rig a broken machine (current sam), or making something stronger than it has to be (6.08 sam). Meditate itself though needs to be overhauled or pruned, it's absolutely useless as it is now. -
05-27-2022, 10:02 AMxAFROxWell, anything that could be suggested by us isn't going to be much of use until we know what the devs actually want to do with the job going forward. With so many poor excuses and them knowing the change put in place would anger the playerbase, I think it'll be easier to make ideas once we know where they want to go with the general feedback about the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruminous
I honestly think bringing it back to 6.08 first would be best to start, maybe adjust certain effects or potencies a bit to keep it roughly in line with what they've done already, and then from there they can start planning whatever, so long as it remains locked until the next xpac, because reworking a job mid xpac so early would be a weird way to go with this.