Dragoon is a pretty complete Job. What could productively change in 6.20 (or beyond)?

Other threads about 6.10 → 6.20+ Dragoon

I tend to write detailed posts that don't fit well as basic replies to megathreads. But I want to link these other threads about 6.20 Dragoon that already exist, and whose discussions should also be considered:

• 6.2 Dragoon Potential Changes... →
• On the topic of DRG being busy and button bloat →

Context for these discussions

Game Director Yoshida statements during "Live Letter LXX" and "6.1 Patch Notes Reading Stream", based on 3rd-party translation work by Iluna Minori of FFXIV Reddit Discord:

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[...] we can't just put too much adjustments without going through discussions on whether the changes are valid or not, and we're doing the same for DRG coming patch 6.2...so I'd like you all to play on the jobs for a bit, and tell us whether we went too far or not, and I'll appreciate if you can honestly tell us so.

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[...] for DRG, they will have to think further on how to adjust them, and its complexity which makes them change majorly on animation for now.

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Jobs that are deemed too busy like DRG or AST are currently under discussion from dev teams as well, so you can expect more changes for Patch 6.2

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First of all — how "busy" does 6.10 Dragoon actually feel?

ie... How are other players feeling about it now — especially those with less-ideal connections?

I think that Dragoon's burst windows (especially the 2-minute window) had gotten slightly out-of-hand in 6.00, due to the extra charges, extra actions, and Jump animation locks.

I believe that the indicator for this was that it got to the point that the frequent advice that I saw in response to "How do I fit everything into my burst window in X or Y encounter??" was along the lines of "Well, lol, if you can't double-weave Jumps natively, then install [this-or-that 3rd Party Tool for latency reduction effects]".

I personally feel that the reductions to Jump-action animation locks in Patch 6.10 resulted in heavily-mitigating this issue, to the point that I feel the "busyness" of Dragoon is now within the boundaries of "fair", even without "3rd Party Tools™".

However, I am fortunate enough to have a relatively good connection to the NA servers (70-80 ping on most days). Therefore, I'm particularly curious whether the changes have made the packed Dragoon burst window feel "workable" for all players. If you have a "less ideal" connection, how does 6.10 Dragoon feel for you?

Possible changes for 6.20 — What could still be productively adjusted on Dragoon?

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First of all — what aspects of Dragoon are currently working well?

I personally feel like Dragoon, while I would definitely not call it "perfect", is currently one of the most comfortable and clean Job designs in FFXIV. For the most part, it just... works.

For example, I can't personally say that I see any reason to modify any of these aspects of Dragoon:

• The core 10-GCD combo cycle. This feels distinct to Dragoon, and I think it's fun/cool.
• The core OGCD functionality, aesthetics, and design. These "just work", they're fun to press, they feel good.
• The core rotational loop of Build—Buff—Life—Dump. It's mostly-intuitive, accessible, and mostly feels good/fun to execute.

Any drastic adjustments to the fundamental ideas of Dragoon's current rotational flow seem unnecessary — although it could still be implemented more cleanly, or adjusted and "modernized" a bit.

This leads me to the opinion that Dragoon, in its current state, really only needs "Quality of Life" tweaks, and/or "polishing", "cleaning up rough edges", etc.

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Then... what current aspects of Dragoon could reasonably benefit from adjustment or improvement?

Dragon Sight

The details of why Dragon Sight has sunk to a miserable state at this point have been discussed ad-nauseum by now, so I'll skip "lancing a dead drake", so to speak.

But, basically, "Dragon Sight" in its current form not only remains a logistical nuisance to activate, but also now has little better identity than "I'm an Astrologian Card with a 2-minute cooldown and no graphic".

This poor thing... needs help. Or some polite euthanasia.

Blood for Blood / "Lance Charge" / Blood of the Dragon

This one might seem like a peculiar thing to even bring up, but honestly, I — and at least some other friends that I've talked to about this — feel like the casting animation and swirling blue aura of "Blood of the Dragon" was really an iconic part of Dragoon, stretching all the way back to Heavensward, and the "Blood" theming in the names also had good "lore resonance", so to speak.

Likewise, I think that "Lance Charge", albeit fitting for Lancers, is... very underwhelming as an action title for Dragoons.

There is no objective gameplay issue here, I just feel like it's undermining the "aesthetics" and "flavor" of the Job. And while they don't take top priority in design debates for practical reasons, these aspects of a Job's fantasy do matter for the player experience!

Movement

Dragoon has a bit of "That One Meme with The Cat Watching The Dog Be Hugged" going on with Melee Mobility in EW. Especially in spite of Dragoon usually being the FF franchise's "Super Jumpy Job" that is traditionally depicted as swooping all over the place like Batman.

Elusive Jump is cool, and of course, makes players feel Very Clever™ when used "creatively" to move around. But realistically, it's still awkward and unintutive, and not always an 'accessible' technique, either, due to all the camera-wobbling required. And frankly, it's also just weird, in a kinda-not-really-good way, that Dragoons have been conditioned to move themselves around like a panicking lobster.

And as for Spineshatter Dive... compared to freely-available tools like Monk "Thunderclap", Ninja "Shukuchi", and Reaper "Egress", or DPS-neutral short-CD tools like Samurai "Gyoten"... Dragoon's Potency-important Spineshatter Dive just does not function on-par — not even with charges, because in FFXIV players's minds, "charges" just means "Hold even more uses for burst windows?? Okay!!"

Life Surge

Due to Life Surge pressuring Dragoon to try to consume it with a very specific GCD, Life Surge has very little leeway for "when" it is activated.

Even with charges, this can lead to uncomfortable clashes between Life Surge and other actions that have strict cooldowns and must not be delayed.

The problem is that Life Surge's charges do not address the fact that Dragoon's very long combo cycle takes a long time to loop back around to a point that Life Surge wants to be used at.

So while Life Surge cooldown itself might not be "lost" by delaying it in favor of a more urgent OGCD, the "effectiveness" will still be drifted disappointingly. This can cause uncomfortable dilemmas during burst windows — sometimes, things can really get tangled, and so you skip Heavens Thrust and think "I'll use it on Fifth Hit", but then it clashes again...

I think that this is not a huge issue, and the times it clashes so badly is rare, but if we're talking about "cleaning up" Dragoon, I guess this is an out-standing aspect of awkwardness.

Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dives

Some players feel that having a large variety of Jumps makes Dragoon "Dragoon-like", and I can understand that perspective, but I'm not sure that I personally agree.

In a lot of FF games, Dragoon just has one universal Jump, and it still feels distinctly "Dragoon-like". So I feel like High Jump, and its very frequent usage, already captures that "Dragoon-like" quality cleanly enough on its own.

Therefore, I see Spineshatter Dive — especially with 2 charges — as mostly just key-clutter and weave-clutter. It no longer Stuns. It no longer generates Eyes. It just doesn't seem to have much personality anymore... it's like "High Jump's less popular cousin".

So I think that Dragoon could consolidate key space, and free up room for other actions — or even just weave-space for things like Feint — by viewing the current state of Spineshatter as being a disposable action.

Dragon Gauge / Life of the Dragon

Despite being so core to Dragoon's playstyle, I think that the Gauge and Life design is actually one of the most awkward current parts of Dragoon.

The reasons that I think this are:

• Dragon Gauge / Life feels weird, in that it's on a strange "timer" system that doesn't really sync up with how most Job Gauges function.

• The weird mix of a Timer, but also the 10s CD on Nastrond, leads to a strange and vaguely-unintuitive Gauge/Burst design.

• That one weird "hangnail" Nastrond that always ends up outside burst windows, which feels like the rotational equivalent of finding an unused firecracker in your garage, 1 week after the actual holiday event ended.

• The, honestly, clunky and awkard "stutter" portion of Life, where Geirskogul turns into Nastrond, but has a separate CD timer, so the entry of Life needs to be "double-tapped" Geirskogul+Nastrond, while the exit of Life ends up with a "Jump Scare" style Geirskogul that suddenly pops up after Nastrond disappears... and if you don't anticipate and weave it immediately, the entire cycle drifts problematically.

• The awkward way that Mirage Dive has to be manipulated in situations where Dragoon does not want to enter Life at the wrong time. This stems from Geirskogul's strict CD demanding immediate use every time it refreshes, while also holding the dual purpose of entering Life... all of which means that generating Eyes in the wrong order can push a Dragoon into a "no-win" corner rotationally and Potency-wise.

I don't personally feel that the core style of the Dragoon gameplay loop needs drastic changes, but I can still see how the current Life design feels somewhat inelegant, awkward, unclean, dated, etc.

So I think that Dragon Gauge / Life could be cleaned up and modernized a bit.

I think that this would also have the additional benefit of allowing Dragoon to have more room to grow in the future, since the current Life system seems to struggle to add any new or interesting details.

How could those various minor issues be addressed without disrupting what's currently enjoyable about Dragoon?

Dragon Sight

Lots of different suggestions have been made all over the various FFXIV discussion sites, and these forums, including:

• Make <mo> macros in FFXIV not-terrible by allowing <mo> macros to use the Action Queue and respond like normal actions.
• Make Dragon Sight a "Dance Partner"-type effect where you choose who it will affect beforehand.
• Fold Dragon Sight into a different action, such as "Lance Charge" or "Battle Litany".
• Make Dragon Sight an untargeted partywide effect ("Dragon Gaze"?).
• Just delete Dragon Sight completely.

Blood for Blood / "Lance Charge" / Blood of the Dragon

A trait called "Blood for Blood" could upgrade "Lance Charge" to "Blood of the Dragon" at level 50+. This would feel like a nice "Graduation Day" for Dragoons reaching the end of ARR / beginning of HW.

Something like:

• Level 30 — Lance Charge — Increases damage dealt by 5% for 15 seconds.
• Level 54 — Trait: Blood for Blood — Upgrades Lance Charge to Blood of the Dragon.
• Level 54 — Blood of the Dragon — Increases damage dealt by 10% for 20 seconds and makes you look cool.

And so Dragoon regains the "swirly blue dragon" aura — specifically, during its burst windows. It's a minor thing, but I'd like this a lot!

Movement

I personally do not want to see Elusive Jump edited or removed. I think that Elusive Jump is cool, it's responsive, it feels good, I like it. I don't think that Elusive Jump itself should be changed.

Instead, just give Dragoon a "Reverse Elusive Jump" — you know, "Unelusive Jump", or whatever. It works the same as Elusive Jump, except it sends you forwards.

I personally think that is all Dragoon would really "need" to feel good or "on-par", mobility-wise.

Life Surge

As with other actions, lots of different suggestions have been made all over the various FFXIV discussion sites, and these forums, including:

• Life Surge can only be consumed by Heavens' Thrust
• Life Surge sets the next Weaponskill to a flat potency value (ie, all Weaponskills have equal potency under Life Surge)
• Life Surge sets the potency of 5th Combo hits to be equal to Heavens' Thrust
• Life Surge no longer causes a Critical Hit, but instead, simply increases the Potency of the next action by a flat amount (like the old Stormblood version of Dark Knight "Dark Arts")
• Life Surge is removed entirely

Most of those possibilities seem to suck away a lot of the flavor and satisfaction from using Life Surge correctly... but at the same time, the action is a legitimately awkward in its current state. However, I really don't have a strong personal opinion about any specific option, myself.

Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dives

I feel like, at this point, Spineshatter and Dragonfire can be thought of as basically 2 actions that serve the same basic function: "an extra cooldown Jump animation to weave in during burst windows".

But Spineshatter's the less-impressive visual, and it feels like a forgettable rotational hangnail. Like, "Oh, yeah. That action exists. Well, I guess it has finished its cooldown, so I might as well press it..." Especially on AOE pulls, where Spineshatter is relegated to the role of pointless filler.

So I would personally prefer something like:

• Trait: Dive Mastery I
• Level 50
• Upgrades Spineshatter Dive to Dragonfire Dive.

Dragon Gauge / Life of the Dragon

This is the most drastic change that I'd advocate for: cleaning up the dated Life system. The boundaries on this for me are:

• Try to preserve the current general gameplay feel of Dragoon.
• Try to modernize the Dragon Gauge / Life system to feel more cleanly-presented and more elegant to design with.
• Try to give the Dragon Gauge / Life system more space to grow in the future.
• Try to remove some of the dated-feeling clunk / jank / awkwardness from Geirskogul / Nastrond.
• Try to retain Dragoon's ability to somewhat-manipulate when it enters its burst window.

Here's an example of a change that might fit these criteria:

Dragon Scales / Wyrmwind Thrust

No changes are made to the function of Wyrmwind Thrust and Dragon Scales.

Dragon Gauge / High Jump / Mirage Dive

• Dragon Gauge becomes a Quantity, rather than a timer, starting at "0" in new instances.
• The Dragoon can have a maximum of 100 Dragon Gauge.
• Dragon Gauge quantity has no duration and remains indefinitely.

Blood of the Dragon ("Lance Charge")

• Blood of the Dragon (ie, "Lance Charge") generates 50 Dragon Gauge when activated.
• Blood of the Dragon (ie, "Lance Charge") still has a 60 second cooldown.

High Jump / Mirage Dive

• Jump / High Jump generates 25 Dragon Gauge when it strikes a target.
• Mirage Dive becomes a Trait.

  • Mirage Dive triggers automatically after High Jump strikes a target.
  • The "Mirage" strike lands with an ~1 second delay, so that the visual effect isn't lost, and so that it keeps the sense of a Dragoon "afterimage" striking the target.
  • Mirage Dive generates 25 Dragon Gauge when it strikes a target.

• Combined, generates 50 Dragon Gauge per High Jump.
• Jump / High Jump still has a fixed 30 second cooldown. It still does not use "charges".
  

Geirskogul / Dragon Eyes

• Geirskogul cooldown is set to 1.0 seconds.
• Geirskogul requires and consumes 50 Dragon Gauge per use.
• Geirskogul generates 1 Dragon Eye when it strikes a target.
• The Dragoon can have a maximum of 2 Dragon Eyes.
• Dragon Eyes have no duration and remain indefinitely.

Life of the Dragon / Nastrond / Dragon Fangs

• Trait — Life of the Dragon: Generating a 2nd Dragon Eye automatically consumes both Eyes and generates 3 Dragon Fangs.
• While the Dragoon has at least 1 Dragon Fang remaining, Geirskogul is changed to Nastrond.
• Nastrond has a 1.0 second cooldown.
• Nastrond does not require or consume Dragon Gauge.
• Each use of Nastrond requires and consumes 1 Dragon Fang.
• Both Dragon Gauge and Dragon Eyes can still be generated while the Dragoon has Dragon Fangs.
• The Dragoon can only have a maximum of 3 Dragon Fangs. Triggering Life again with unspent Dragon Fangs will overwrite any unspent Fangs.

Other interactions with Life of the Dragon / Dragon Fangs

Dragonfire Dive

• Cooldown remains 120 seconds.
• Dragonfire Dive potency increases by 50% for each unspent Dragon Fang that the Dragoon has when Dragonfire Dive is activated, to a maximum of 150% increased potency.
• Dragonfire Dive does not require or consume Dragon Fangs.

Stardiver

• Stardiver cooldown is set to 1.0 seconds.
• Stardiver activation requires at least 1 Dragon Fang.
• Stardiver activation consumes all unspent Dragon Fangs.
• Stardiver potency is static — it is not modified by the number of Fangs consumed.
• Stardiver base potency is increased significantly, to compensate for it now replacing a Nastrond.

It might be hard to get an idea of the rotational flow from those text lists, so here's a mock-up graphic to roughly show how it would work (in a simplified case):

https://i.imgur.com/DSYko8N.png

Elaborating on some of those Life / Gauge ideas listed above

"In practice, this is basically just the same thing as always, so why..."

In addition to making Geirskogul more flexible about exactly when you use it, this would also open up more design space for the future than the current "Timer Life" system can do.

For example, a future trait could add an alternative Gauge consumer, or make Fifth Hits of the combo generate 5 Gauge, or cause Wyrmwind Thrust to generate 25 Gauge, or make Stardiver refund 1 Fang... etc, etc, etc.

The idea is to try to clean up and modernize the Dragoon gauge system, and not to try to significantly change the core gameplay loop .

"But with this system, Dragoon would feel pressured to skip odd-minute windows and try to hold full Gauge until the bigger 2-minute burst windows..."

Maybe... I think it's a legitimate concern.

But if this became an issue, or was deemed undesirable or unenjoyable gameplay, it could be adjusted for, and controlled.

For example: "A fresh set of Dragon Fangs lasts for 30 seconds. After 30 seconds, any unused Dragon Fangs are automatically lost."

I left this sort of limitation out of the initial sketch above, because it seemed like it would be more interesting to high-end Dragoons to have the potential to trigger Life right before a downtime phase, and then resume the encounter with 3 Fangs still stored and waiting when a boss returns.

In contrast, putting a timer on Fangs would feel a bit limited and odd compared to how most Gauges work, but it would also allow the currently-standard "30 second Life window" to be more firmly-reenforced.

"Why does Blood of the Dragon / Lance Charge generate 50 Gauge?"

That's to allow Dragoon to go into Life in the Opener. Most Jobs get to do their full rotation when they open a fight, and I think it's more fun that way.

I deliberately favored putting this gauge generation on the 60-second BOTD / Lance Charge, because that would force Geirskogul to be used at least once per minute outside burst windows — preserving that long-standing aspect of the Dragoon rotation, and allowing Geirskogul to still have a presence outside burst windows.

As well, gaining 150 Gauge per 60s, but only "needing" 100 Gauge, would add some depth / complexity to the decision-making about how to manage the Gauge's various resources when optimizing an encounter — something that seems to be enjoyable (or at least satisfying) for high-tier players.

That said, I can already see this potentially becoming Really Cursed™ as Dragoons ravenously attempt to attain a Reaper-esque Double Stardiver / "6 Fangs" in 2m windows while also not delaying High Jump, Dragonfire Dive, Wyrmwind Thrust, Dragon Sight, Battle Litany, or Life Surge, and probably Feint and True North somewhere in there most of the time, too.

If that ends up seeming irritating or stressful rather than fun — or legitimately "too busy" — just delete the Gauge generation from BOTD, which would reset Dragoon back to the longstanding "No Life" opener and familiar, static 60 second rhythm.

"But if Stardiver consumes all your Fangs, then Stardiver timing isn't as flexible anymore! Boo!"

Legitimate criticism. That is definitely a deviation from the longstanding Stardiver design, and potentially problematic due to Stardiver's long animation lock making it not always favorable to be "forced" to activate Stardiver at too specific of a time.

Personally, I feel like Stardiver is more interesting as a powerful finisher like Communio, so it would be "worth it".

But if you disagree, it could always be changed to just make Stardiver require (but not consume) at least 1 Dragon Fang, and to make entering Life grant "Stardiver Ready" for 30s. That would be a more authentic analogue to the current Dragoon system as of Patch 6.10. But that also felt a lot more boring to me, so I went with the alternative in the sketch above.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Therefore, I'm particularly curious whether the changes have made the packed Dragoon burst window feel "workable" for all players. If you have a "less ideal" connection, how does 6.10 Dragoon feel for you?

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DRG is adequately busy right now, as this happens mostly during the even-minute burst windows in a manner similar to NIN or DRK. The animation lock reduction has made this smooth and so there's no problems anymore. Compared to ShB, we mostly press 2 more oGCDs in even-minute windows: one SPD and one WWT. LS is barely used in these because of the way HT aligns, and because it's a loss to use LS on a 5th positional with Litany up compared to a non-buffed HT.

What DRG needs to make burst windows more lenient is to increase Battle Litany's duration to 20s for the DRG only (party still gets a 15s buff). This way, drifting will be less problematic. This would have to be paired with the Dragon Sight + Lance Charge merge, with the former becoming an upgrade to the latter: a 15-20%, 60s personal buff.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Therefore, I see Spineshatter Dive — especially with 2 charges — as mostly just key-clutter and weave-clutter. It no longer Stuns. It no longer generates Eyes. It just doesn't seem to have much personality anymore... it's like "High Jump's less popular cousin".

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If the ability no longer has a personality, then it should be given one. What do we gain exactly from removing it entirely? One less oGCD to press? What about similar abilities like Shadowbringer? I'm not saying they're the greatest of the bunch, but perhaps the issue lies in their role and not their existence.

The same thing goes for Dragonfire Dive. As a 120s cooldown, it needs to have a more defined purpose. If it's to be a hard-hitting attack every 2-min, then let it be so. If it's to empower another attack/give us a proc or produce resources, then that's also fine.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

This stems from Geirskogul's strict CD demanding immediate use every time it refreshes, while also holding the dual purpose of entering Life... all of which means that generating Eyes in the wrong order can push a Dragoon into a "no-win" corner rotationally and Potency-wise.

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This is fixed by making drifting less punishing (i.e. making Litany last longer for the DRG), so that drifts of one GCD are not already enough to risk the 2nd Nastrond to not be buffed by Litany.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

A trait called "Blood for Blood" could upgrade "Lance Charge" to "Blood of the Dragon" at level 50+.

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While I like this idea, BoTD would be used during bursts only, which is also when we gain Life. Therefore, if Life stays the way it is, the blue glow will only be seen for like 2 GCDs before it becomes red or in a non-life opener.

If applying the Life changes that you suggest below, then the red aura no longer exists or is very limited, making us trade one aura for the other. The solution is to just allow us to have BoTD's aura any time we have one or two eyes stored (like Darkside/Beast Gauge). We spend 50% of the fight in Life, so it's only fair to spend the other 50% (in most cases unless you go double life) in a BoTD state.

That said, changing the cast animation of LC into BoTD is good for me, though I'd ideally merge LC and DS' animations: use the LC animation with the swirling dragon from DS spiraling around our body.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Instead, just give Dragoon a "Reverse Elusive Jump"

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You suggested this in your other thread at the time and I still believe the same thing I replied then: this'd make DRG RPR 2.0. We don't want full homogenization. We don't even need a gap closer anymore thanks to the much improved EJ, but it'd be great to have one, as it'd finally make us truly mobile just like the other melees.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Due to Life Surge pressuring Dragoon to try to consume it with a very specific GCD, Life Surge has very little leeway for "when" it is activated.

Even with charges, this can lead to uncomfortable clashes between Life Surge and other actions that have strict cooldowns and must not be delayed.

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Yes and no. Despite how odd it is and how many people vouch for its removal, Life Surge is an interesting ability because it's the only one that interacts with our GCDs and does not follow the "press on cooldown" rule. It requires some thinking even if in the end you can just plan its usage on an encounter-by-encounter basis, though it's true that pressing it on CD on any HT/Coerthan Torment will be right 90% of the time.

The clashes you mention almost never happen, as you say yourself. It's mostly in some odd-minute bursts when HJ is up at the same time, and you barely use it in even-minute bursts because a suitable HT either comes up before/after they start or at the very end when the burst is almost over.

The ability needs to not have anti-crit synergy (see https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5880390) and be able to be used with more GCDs so that it's more engaging.

Perhaps it could even be turned into a GCD attack a la Sonic Break/Gnashing Fang with similar effects but that grants a scale as well: extra GCDs (e.g. Piercing Talon) delay scale generation which then push WWT out of buffs, though this could be mitigated by having a max of 3 scales with a cost of 2.

Several of the options you provide for LS are good though, and I'd personally like it if it could interact with Chaotic Spring in some way.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

This is the most drastic change that I'd advocate for: cleaning up the dated Life system.

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The overall idea is good, and it makes sense. However, it's very similar to how RPR works. Allowing several NAS back to back is going to make the burst as busy or more, which is not a problem to me but it apparently is for the devs. Additionally, Stardiver removing all of the stacks is basically Communio, and forcing it to be used last makes the burst more rigid.

I agree that the Life gauge does not offer "much", but turning it into Enshroud is not the solution. It should lean more towards Enochian (management of some sort) than Enshroud: you cannot use GSK to get more eyes while you have fangs similar to how you cannot get Soul/Shroud during Enshroud. It is not in our best interest for DRG to become the oGCD RPR, as it'd lose its identity. Perhaps a cursed suggestion would be to allow Nastrond to be affected by SkS while still being an oGCD, but DRG does not like SkS much as it drifts the oGCDs.

During HW, the BoTD gauge was filled using positionals and then spent with GSK spam, if I understand correctly, so perhaps something along the lines could be added to spice things up: we enter Life with 30 gauge, and NAS consumes 10 gauge per cast. This'd add another oGCD to the mix within the burst (the 3rd NAS), so it's important to consider.

We could still stay in LoTD status and keep the red aura for, let's say, 25s, since Life could interact with our GCDs in future expansions, for example. This'd also prevent GSK from mildly drifting after each LoTD use because of us coming out of it 5s before it comes off CD.

honestly the only thing that needs to change is a universal implementation of noclippy/alexander into the game so everyone can double weave comfortably

u CAN double weave with all jumps now (except stardiver) which frankly feels absolutely amazing

DRG feels solid all round, good business during burst windows, feels better than ever IMO, no further changes r necessary

maybe next expansion they can add 2 GCDs to the rotation so it becomes a clean 30 sec cycle as opposed to 24

DRG isn’t as fun thanks to the positional rewards being removed. Still seeing SMN, DRK, MCH, SCH, NIN, MNK shrink for the sake of accessibility, won’t be long until DRG gets this treatment. Some may say it’s overdue

I think DRG is fine as-is, but it could use a rework in terms of which abilities are earned when. Not having an AoE combo until level 62 is embarrassing when you compare it to how RDM or SAM play out of the box at 50. Any job that doesn't have some semblance of a complete kit at 50 is badly designed, IMO. 60 and beyond should be expanding on that basic kit, not still waiting to finish it. There should be one complete ST and AoE rotation and some interaction with at least one part of the job gauge once you've spent 50 levels grinding out a job. Why this isn't the standard for every job is frankly baffling to me.

DRG is perfect, the only thing that i want is some QoL stuff on Dragon Sight, because without a macro is horrible to use.

I really hope SE dont destroy another job with this changes that nobody asked for.

Already seeing a future when the only ''safes'' jobs will be BLM and RPR.

I think Battle Littany need a reworks. Buffing crit isn't a bad thing, but this buff isn't really interessting for Samourai now because of their 100% Midare/Namikiri Crit. Dancer suffer from the same problem when choosing a Samourai as a partner over any other class and their lvl 90 skill got the exact same 100% crit.

Thorough post as usual, Eorzean. Thank you for laying everything out so nicely.

Regarding the suggested changes:

• Euthanize Dragon Sight or rework it to be actually interesting. At minimum, even with <mo> fixes, that'd require putting on a different CD from Battle Litany.
  
  
• Yes to swirly blue on Lance Charge -> Blood of the Dragon, though I'd prefer it not be quite so large/opaque as the original form.
  
  
• Yes to the Geirskogul change towards a gauge spender. It'd allow us to give it, in effect, a second charge without both charges being spent instantly into the opener, since High Jump would remain unbankable. However, perhaps just give Jump the full 50 gauge, allowing us to bank/play around with Mirage Dive a bit more.
  
  
• Personally, I wouldn't mind getting rid of High Jump as a basic animation-locked ranged attack and replacing it with, say, an oGCD that simply launches you seemingly up (off the field) and greatly increases movement speed before either blink-striking to an enemy via a targeted GCD attack (upgraded into a dive variant) or hitting Jump again to descend for AoE damage (when hitting enemies, else a brief bonus Movement and Attack Speed if hitting nothing). Complete with i-frames against melee attacks, of course. That'd provide actual mobility rather than an awkward "let me take ALL the AoEs" pogo-stick ranged attack.
  
  
• Don't make Mirage Dive automatic. Instead, give us reason to desire to leverage the 15 seconds' control on it. Do spruce up its animation, though. The DRG's screaming-backache animation isn't terribly appealing.
  
  
• I'd recommend against the Dragon Fangs design, as it can make Nostrand feel spammy (all three unloaded within the first GCD).

Personally, I'd rather keep the timer and turn Life of the Dragon towards HW-era Blood of the Dragon, but centered around Nostrand instead of Geirskogul. You'd have a new, separate Life of the Dragon key which converts into Stardiver. Jump skills' damage, including Stardiver's, increased while within LotD. Each Gierskogul used prior gives you, say, 14 seconds' duration of LotD, while each Dragon skill (WT/F&C) used within generates, say, 5 seconds' duration, to a max of 40 seconds, and each Nostrand consumes... 10 seconds. (Spitballing here.)

Entering per minute, you'd typically have just enough to pop, say, 2 Nostrand immediately without dropping Life of the Dragon so long as you enter just before Dragon skills. You'd generally then have the option of trying to get a Nostrand off of 1 seconds duration (it consumes, but does not require, 10s, after all) or riding LotD all the way to your next Jump, then dropping it via Nostrand so you can begin again building up (the next) LotD's duration. Stardiver would stay for up to a minute of activating LotD, even if LotD itself fades.

Hell, go ahead and give it some fun further advantage, like increased movement speed and movement range, while we're at it.

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Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

I think Battle Littany need a reworks. Buffing crit isn't a bad thing, but this buff isn't really interessting for Samourai now because of their 100% Midare/Namikiri Crit. Dancer suffer from the same problem when choosing a Samourai as a partner over any other class and their lvl 90 skill got the exact same 100% crit.

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This is why direct hit and crit buffs have to give flat % damage bonuses to attacks with 100% chance to direct hit/crit and behave normally in any other case, because if it's not implemented this way I can just foresee the devs turning all buffs into flat damage bonuses, at which point you wonder about the point of party buffs existing.

Personally a lot of what I feel they could do would be to fix some animations (looking at you mirage dive, fang and claw), but also just make life of the dragon much more exciting to build to and use. To me, it's just projectile vomiting red 3 times every minute or so with a very exciting dive during it. Though they could also prune out some abilities (again, looking at you mirage dive, fang and claw), and retain the 10 GCD full structure with a not as awful looking and (potentially) better finisher by giving drg penta thrust. But that's just the FFXI player in me missing that ability.

Oh, and make life of the dragon more exciting than just a super-cool-amazing-and-powerful dive followed by 3 rounds of projectile vomiting because you twirled so much in the air that you can't hold it in anymore. Just my thoughts.

Just give me my damn wyvern back!

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Originally Posted by Helacious

Just give me my damn wyvern back!

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This isn't FFXI. A wyvern for a dragoon wouldn't make any sense lore wise, especially pre-heavensward for new players.

@OP
Those are definitely some interesting idea's. DRG for the most part is nearly perfect how it is right now imo. The only thing I'd really change is make it so delaying going into life of the dragon isn't optimal. It takes too long to go into the coolest part of the rotation only for their big hitter within that phase to mostly hit like a wet noodle. It would be nice to enter life of the dragon more often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ransu

This isn't FFXI. A wyvern for a dragoon wouldn't make any sense lore wise, especially pre-heavensward for new players.

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And you don't want a pet.

If DRG gets a pet, it will be a glorified dot like Living Shadow or Automaton Queen. I assure you, you don't want a pet.

That's a lot of words.

Well many have pointed it out that your inspiration seemingly draw from various jobs (Nin, Rpr).

This is not inherently bad however a few points.

Bunshin jumps and mug?: Interesting, but I lose fexibility when one could just increase the mirage timer. I think it's important to leave the "don't overcap but try to ride the line optimization. The Mug "blood of the dragon" 50 guage change, not sure if this is necessary but with your change it probably became necessary.

Reaper et al build and dump guage design. I see the merits and I like your system but I feel we have alot of this already. Drg feels unique amongst it's peers. There is a difference between a healthy amount of pressure (timers) and nearly zero elements to track. Although you are correct in this increasing accessability. I personally feel your revision would simplify the job gameplay. This would be designed well, but easier for me to play (aka like reaper).

***Enshroud has more time than necessary providing flexibility and ends the transformation with the finisher. I often have at least ~15s left. If we increase all Drg timers for the sake of accessability than we fix ....the problem(s)? If Reaper has this and no one complains to streamline the timer for skill ceiling purposes why can't Drg receive this. (However perhaps this timer is there for future expansion enshroud skills...I have no clue)

Fang system: Reduces life of the dragon abilities to 3 nodstrod variants and an ender (finisher like reapers). As oppose to what we currently have with timers. I personally think this idea is interesting but the trade offs I'm not a fan of due to the fact that overall I get less for the sake of accessability and a more I guess intuitive rotation. The dragon fire dive is interesting but one could as others mentioned, just make the skill more interesting in it's current function (ogcd dmg). I also believe that not every job needs to be for everyone ie busy jobs exist but less busy jobs also exist for players.

Modernize design: ??? Via build and dump revision for the sake of future growth; which likely gives us basically our current level of gameplay in a future expansion??(streamline current expansion Drg and delay the completion of the job to lv 100). Don't get me wrong I like Rpr too but I think Drg can stand to be different as is.

Good ideas nevertheless. And removing timers would not make me blink at this rate. I do appreciate that you anticipated some of these critiques ahead of time. It shows you put a good amount of thought into the ideas while advocating for a certain direction.

Conversations this discussion has raised: The future problems and limits of job design after this expansion. Skill transformations vs new skills, Design via traits/ tool tips, when does it end with a complete job system, and change for the sake of change.

(Example)

Future expansion Drg: Dragonfire system
As of 7.0 dragonfire activates (your fang system) but changes vaporal thrust and disembowel into .....or changes gierskogul in a new melee variant of a new lore important (hyrasvalgur: nidhoggs brother)<- don't spell check me, dragon lol. I'm being silly ^_^

See and nothing else changes.

Oh oh and the two ice (hyrasvalgur) and fire (nidhoggs) systems would not stack so you couldn't activate life of the dragon while under dragonfire's (legacy of the dragon) dives effect. However it's an entirely new ogcd rotation like nodstrod/gierskogul. And eyes are permeant anyway so holding the activation of nidhoggs abilities wouldn't be a problem given the new dragon blood would be equivalent or higher in potency of course. Because reasons I guess.

Hopefully they don't take something away and screw up the job like they did with Samurai.