PvP Crystalline Conflict Duoqueue good idea?

Sadly it is not possible to play with a friend in PvP at the moment besides Frontline (or later with a full team only). But to be honest Frontline isn't "really pvp". So may it be possible to enable Duoqueue in CC, maybe at least in practise matches. Duoteams could only be matched together against other duoteams e.g. so it should be pretty fair.

I just started playing FFXIV, I am still a sproud and FFXIV isn't known as a PvP game, but in my opinion PvP has great potential here especially since patch 6.1.

Sure there are many more problems with PvP, especially there are many cheaters outside at the moment and you can't really report them if I am right, but it would be great to play more with friends, maybe more players would get used to PvP if they could play with a friend instead of playing alone.

It would be great if Duoqueue or maybe Tripplequeue (lol) would be a thing in the future, at least I know some people who would be happy if it gets enabled.

Thanks for reading :)

A double doubles mode (4v4) could be pretty neat, as long as it's not mixed with solo.

My FC and I literally only built a pvp team in anticipation of this mode and were going to do it as a FC but now it's pointless because we can't even team up in it without literally making everyone hit join the queue at the same time and it still has a small chance of not working.

I still can't understand the fearmongering of some players about "Getting stomped" or dealing with premades when you're already dealing with premades i the mode you just don't know it due to how blatantly easy it is to manipulate the queue up system. Even if only 2 out of their 3-5 group end up in your party you don't have any more control over that. At least with premades/duos/triples you'd be able to lose with friends lol.

All of the other bs in the mode with cheaters scripters, etc and people want to focus on how we shouldn't let people queue up with friends in a mode that's already riddled with bad actors. You're getting stomped by win traders, cheaters, and other people already, who cares if the other team is coordinating in a RANKED PVP mode that is supposed to be a team/collaborative effort. If you're already soaked you don't need a raincoat.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

My FC and I literally only built a pvp team in anticipation of this mode and were going to do it as a FC but now it's pointless because we can't even team up in it without literally making everyone hit join the queue at the same time and it still has a small chance of not working.

I still can't understand the fearmongering of some players about "Getting stomped" or dealing with premades when you're already dealing with premades i the mode you just don't know it due to how blatantly easy it is to manipulate the queue up system. Even if only 2 out of their 3-5 group end up in your party you don't have any more control over that. At least with premades/duos/triples you'd be able to lose with friends lol.

All of the other bs in the mode with cheaters scripters, etc and people want to focus on how we shouldn't let people queue up with friends in a mode that's already riddled with bad actors. You're getting stomped by win traders, cheaters, and other people already, who cares if the other team is coordinating in a RANKED PVP mode that is supposed to be a team/collaborative effort. If you're already soaked you don't need a raincoat.

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"My buddies and I are disappointed that we can't stomp pugs all day".
You can just say what you mean without all the other nonsense.
If your FC wants to play together, join a PvP discord and find other premades to run custom matches against.
Ranked solo queue isn't some weird new thing that SE pulled out of thin air.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

"My buddies and I are disappointed that we can't stomp pugs all day".
You can just say what you mean without all the other nonsense.
If your FC wants to play together, join a PvP discord and find other premades to run custom matches against.

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Bold of you to assume we'd be good enough to stomp pugs (:P) when we just want to play a mode together in a massively multiplayer online RPG dressed as dwarves AND premades are already manipulated through joint queuing in the current mode.

You think you're not fighting premades but you already are, at least with group queuing you'd know it's possible.

Queueing automatically is not nearly as seamless easy as party finder nonsense and you know it. Don't put words in my mouth and don't provide counter solutions that are literally worse than the alternatives in every way. It will not "ruin pvp" to have casual be random nonsense time and ranked allow for people to be in actual teams or at least queue up with at least ONE friend.

Not being able to at least have fun with friends in an entire mode is not a feature of an online game, and many other games allow for group matchups and yet are still highly competitive and fun. Weird how that works.

*EDT* Not to mention you can manipulate the premade system in frontlines as well despite them putting a cap on party that can join frontlines. Keeping people from queuing with friends or being able to actually coordinate and communicate won't somehow provide you with more wins.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

Ranked solo queue isn't some weird new thing that SE pulled out of thin air.

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As someone who gave zero shits about pvp, after looking up the pvp teams thing and realizing it was only for feast in which wait times were horrendous it's no wonder I misunderstood its use, because it's essentially pointless in the game as it currently stands.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

Bold of you to assume we'd be good enough to stomp pugs (:P) when we just want to play a mode together in a massively multiplayer online RPG in which a mode already exists to go in premade dressed as dwarves AND premades are already manipulated through joint queuing in the current mode.

You think you're not fighting premades but you are.

Queueing automatically is not nearly as seamless easy as party finder nonsense and you know it. Don't put words in my mouth and don't provide counter solutions that are literally worse than the alternatives in every way. It will not "ruin pvp" to have casual be random nonsense time and ranked allow for people to be in actual teams or at least queue up with at least ONE friend.

Not being able to at least have fun with friends in an entire mode is not a feature of an online game, and many other games allow for group matchups and yet are still highly competitive and fun. Weird how that works.

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I'd have no issue with group queuing for casual, but blending solo and group queue in ranked play has been a disaster in every game that's ever tried it.
Groups would need their own queue for ranked. Queue times and matchmaking quality would be miserable, but that's the tradeoff.
You're wildly exaggerating the issue of synchronous queuing for the sake of your argument. Have you actually tried it?
Getting in the same match at all is unreliable unless you're playing way off-peak hours, and the teams are randomized.
It can be fun for a bit if you don't mind sparring with your friends or waiting for matches to finish when you don't get the same queue,
but it's certainly not creating a "fighting premades" problem in ranked that would justify opening the floodgates.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

You're wildly exaggerating the issue of synchronous queuing for the sake of your argument. Have you actually tried it?
Getting in the same match at all is unreliable unless you're playing way off-peak hours, and the teams are randomized.
It can be fun for a bit if you don't mind sparring with your friends or waiting for matches to finish when you don't get the same queue,
but it's certainly not creating a "fighting premades" problem in ranked that would justify opening the floodgates.

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I'm not wildly overexaggerating at all and can provide video footage next time if thats what it would take. If I queue up with one to three people I am almost always in the same match. It is not difficult at all and people have been gaming the frontlines system for a long time. So not sure how this is news.

2-3 FC mates and I did it one night and got in the same match but not on the same team (usually 2 on one team 1 on the other) 90% of the time. It is not hard to do.

Every now and again one of us wouldn't get a queue pop but 9 times out of 10 we were in the same match and this was on a Saturday night. So I dunno. I'd lean more towards my own experience and experience of all the players I know who are currently doing so over a single statement of how difficult it is personally.

I mean all it takes is one person on a team of 2-4 to be on your team to throw the match to provide win trades. My friends and I are just jerks to each other enough to be willing to murder each other if we end up on opposing teams haha

EDIT: I should add that we lost plenty when doing so lol. Some team matchups and player skill is objectively better than us and/or sometimes you just have a bad match. Our win/loss ratio was about the same with way more fun had between the group and we coordinated our glams as Dwarves so it was "fun" even.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

I'm not wildly overexaggerating at all and can provide video footage next time if thats what it would take. If I queue up with one to three people I am almost always in the same match. It is not difficult at all and people have been gaming the frontlines system for a long time. So not sure how this is news.

2-3 FC mates and I did it one night and got in the same match but not on the same team (usually 2 on one team 1 on the other) 90% of the time. It is not hard to do.

Every now and again one of us wouldn't get a queue pop but 9 times out of 10 we were in the same match and this was on a Saturday night. So I dunno. I'd lean more towards my own experience and experience of all the players I know who are currently doing so over a single statement of how difficult it is personally.

I mean all it takes is one person on a team of 2-4 to be on your team to throw the match to provide win trades. My friends and I are just jerks to each other enough to be willing to murder each other if we end up on opposing teams haha

EDIT: I should add that we lost plenty when doing so lol. Some team matchups and player skill is objectively better than us and/or sometimes you just have a bad match. Our win/loss ratio was about the same with way more fun had between the group and we coordinated our glams as Dwarves so it was "fun" even.

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You're really moving the goal posts if this is about win-trading now.
First of all, there's virtually zero incentive for win-trading in CC. The matches are already short, winning doesn't generate substantially more resources than losing, and the rank rewards aren't particularly desirable.
They designed it this way specifically to make that behavior less appealing.
As for the synchronous queuing, your experience is the same as mine. If you're in the same bracket with a small group, you can somewhat reliably get in the same match,
but you have no control over who ends up on which team.
There's a huge difference between 5 people queuing separately and fighting each other 3v2, which is what you can manage right now with a little effort,
and 5 people queuing as a group and wiping the floor with every pug they're matched against, which is what you're suggesting should be implemented

Edit: I feel like I'm being needlessly hostile. I totally understand your desire to play with your friends, and I'd like to be able to play with mine as well.
It's silly that there's no easy way to do that right now. I just don't think letting groups queue into solo ranked is the right solution.

I've been really enjoying PvP and specifically set up a Forum account to talk about this!

I really REALLY want the ability to queue together, my wife and I love playing these kinds of games together and it'd be really nice. I'd honestly take a queue time hit if I were able to do it, considering how instantly queues pop now for both ranked and normal it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. I'd say ideally, take a page from League's book.

Start it off allowing only single, duo, or full team Ranked queues. Single and duo go into the same pool but generally strive to match against each other, full team only goes against full team. I'd give full team Ranked Queues their own special leaderboard, should a nascent esports community start developing around CC this would be the queue to watch. You'd probably get a decent interest from Streamers and content creators, a lot of the big ones like Zepla and Mr. Happy have been super into PVP so giving them the ability to team up and stream matches would do great for the mode. If the full team queue isn't large enough to fully sustain on its own, you can also have it open up during certain times of the week/day so the people who DO have teams have a set time to run in and play. I was part of the League of Legends Dominion community back when it still existed and that was something they actually organized themselves, having a day they set aside where everyone would queue into the Draft mode to have more competitive games.

For standard, just allow any kind of team you want and try to match up teams together whenever possible. I'll assume there's some kind of back-end ELO tracker that may need some cultivating but you can get a generally acceptable balance this way, since some teams will honestly underperform even against solos and even a 5-man isn't a guaranteed win (I've been on the losing side of PLENTY of games with a 5-stack). It lets people play with their friends, form the full competitive teams, but still keeps it somewhat constrained to not boost the queue times too high.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

I just don't think letting groups queue into solo ranked is the right solution.

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I was going to ask where the assumptions were coming from but I see your edit and no harm done at all.

Especially with the other frustrations in the mode and the other problems in it, I get how it can be really irritating to see people speak about something they want to do even if for good purpose when you've seen it abused in the past.


In terms of win trading, as one other post is on the front page, one of the tops on Aether is someone who does such and the reason I shifted the posts so to speak is to promote the following tangent:

People are already queueing together by gaming the queue system > Then people are using that to their advantage and making it 4v5 > Then people are climbing the ranks > If people are cheating already but people just think they aren't at least knowing that people can group up means you can stack the odds in your favor with some friends/fc mates at some point.

This is happening in the background but because there's no "official" group queue people act like it isn't. I think most/all the people I've talked to want to play with friends not because they want to roflstomp anyone in particular. I mean for everyone I've talked to it's just because even having ONE other person you know who won't eat dirt in the background can change the way you feel about the mode and engaging with it constantly you know?

I agree that letting groups do ranked SOLO is probably a problem, but solo "group" or multi tiers are scaring people because they think the modes will be empty in the future. The issue is if you have no tiers or structure those same people who win trade and cheat and group up will still be the ones dominating hte mode and playing it the most pushing out literally any other players who want to engage with it.

Combine this with the fact that CC will look for people above or below your current tier to level up it could easily be:

I get alt to silver, alt gets main to gold, I get alt to gold, alt gets me to plat, and so on.

Because the system is fundamentally broken and we have little/no control over it, I'm always going to prefer having even the slightest bit of power by comparison. Even if I get stomped by a group of 5 with a friend, at least I got to play with a friend and not get watch someone dick around so their friend could win or phone it in because their group got split.

I understand your perspective and where it's coming from, and I get that I'm presenting an "absolute" vs a chance, but at the same time that can push the absolute in our favor so I'm going to vouch for being in control of what my match could be vs not.

All that being said, I like the idea of a duo match up or something where two people can join up together or something because if you have 2 pairs of 2 that means singles are never locked out which means the queues stay populated, and it means that that you're not splitting it off into like 3v3 2v2 etc.

At the end of the day I'll jump through hoops like I have to with front lines if I need to, I just want to play with friends and have fun.

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Originally Posted by AzureChrysanthemum

I'd give full team Ranked Queues their own special leaderboard, should a nascent esports community start developing around CC this would be the queue to watch. You'd probably get a decent interest from Streamers and content creators, a lot of the big ones like Zepla and Mr. Happy have been super into PVP so giving them the ability to team up and stream matches would do great for the mode.

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This is another thing. Before the mode dies it's a wonder why we have premade pvp teams that can be formed and like no way to use them outside of feast apparently?

As a newcomer to pvp this is baffling to me as we all prepped because we thought we'd HAVE to have a team to compete but now there's no reason to and there's no good way to play with friends, making it annoying. Like I said before my friends and I wanna play as Dwarf glams because our FC is named the Laliho Lolligaggers. Sure it'll be a meme but some of us are good at pvp and like the mode and some are just here to have a good time. It'd still be fun to do.

It seems like we're shooting ourselves in the foot by locking the mode from the most obvious forms of communication and group organization so that it's dead before it has a chance to lift off the ground. As someone who never took pvp seriously before I can understand why the pvpers of the past are upset that the mode has always been the red headed step child of the game. It deserves more imo.

I like the options presented here and I think it suits the best of both worlds honestly.

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

I think most/all the people I've talked to want to play with friends not because they want to roflstomp anyone in particular.

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I think this is correct, and I was just being pointlessly dickish about it because this forum makes me cranky. I'd like to play CC with my wife and our friends; not because I want to wreck pugs, but simply because it would be fun to play together. I have strong feelings about the integrity of solo ranked, but the lack of any kind of group queue is damaging that integrity by forcing people who want to play together to try to manipulate solo queue into letting them do so.

The challenge is finding a solution that creates a fun match for both sides. Running into a full pre-made in a pug feels terrible, but so does waiting 20 minutes in a queue with 4 other people waiting for a fair match. Striking a perfect balance between queue times and match quality is an art form no one has mastered yet (though there's an understandable tendency to err on the side of faster queues since people are going to complain about the matchmaking no matter what, and the present state of CC is a perfect example).

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Originally Posted by Tobias_Azuryon

All that being said, I like the idea of a duo match up or something where two people can join up together or something because if you have 2 pairs of 2 that means singles are never locked out which means the queues stay populated, and it means that that you're not splitting it off into like 3v3 2v2 etc.

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I'm drawing most of my feelings about this from my MOBA background. I remember Heroes of the Storm in particular going through, like, a dozen different iterations trying to solve the group queue problem. The issue always ended up being that solo players won't voluntarily queue into group play as filler, which means you can't field 2+2+1 or 4+1 comps, and duos vastly outnumber trios, so trios get instant queues while duos wait forever. On top of that, 5-stacks have a massive advantage over the 3+2's, especially if we're assuming an MMR band that loosens as the queue time goes up (meaning the duo that's been waiting the longest gets the first trio that queues, regardless of how far apart they are in MMR).

Allowing groups of any size to queue into Casual is a start, but the result tends to be the sort of trashy Quick Match mode you'll find in lots of games. It's way better than nothing if you just want to play with your friends, but it doesn't end up being a particularly fulfilling experience long-term.

I've always felt like the best solution is in the realm of building out robust in-game tools for finding other players who are interested in group play - something substantially more intuitive and less cumbersome than the silly Fellowship Finder, certainly - and then incentivizing forming groups aggressively enough to override the tendency for most players to just tunnel solo queue instead of going to all the trouble.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnwaen

I'm drawing most of my feelings about this from my MOBA background. I remember Heroes of the Storm in particular going through, like, a dozen different iterations trying to solve the group queue problem. The issue always ended up being that solo players won't voluntarily queue into group play as filler, which means you can't field 2+2+1 or 4+1 comps, and duos vastly outnumber trios, so trios get instant queues while duos wait forever. On top of that, 5-stacks have a massive advantage over the 3+2's, especially if we're assuming an MMR band that loosens as the queue time goes up (meaning the duo that's been waiting the longest gets the first trio that queues, regardless of how far apart they are in MMR).

Allowing groups of any size to queue into Casual is a start, but the result tends to be the sort of trashy Quick Match mode you'll find in lots of games. It's way better than nothing if you just want to play with your friends, but it doesn't end up being a particularly fulfilling experience long-term.

I've always felt like the best solution is in the realm of building out robust in-game tools for finding other players who are interested in group play - something substantially more intuitive and less cumbersome than the silly Fellowship Finder, certainly - and then incentivizing forming groups aggressively enough to override the tendency for most players to just tunnel solo queue instead of going to all the trouble.

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Heroes of the Storm was... special from what I remember of playing before I ragequit out. It had a lot of design that would benefit 5-stacks WAY more than it would benefit them in other games due to how the shared experience worked. I detest Summoner's Rift in League but I will play with friends if they have a full team together and honestly they seem to more or less have the matchmaking well in hand, although that could be due to the relative player population. And that's with League matches in general taking way longer and having way less comeback potential. I think you can manage being a bit more loose in initial experiments with matchmaking for CC, the matches are so short that especially in quick play it's not going to be as big of an emotional investment as knowing you're going to lose 5 minutes into a 20+ minute game. Even running some ranked I feel the sting of defeat way less than I would in other long-form MOBAs because I can just jump in and try again and I also know that my rank can't degrade past a certain point which is also nice. All that to say I think SE has some room, and very much SHOULD experiment a bit. It won't be perfect for a good while, but it's worth having because we should be able to play together with our friends in this mode.

Duo queue and full premade queue should definitely be a thing.

Or really just let parties of any size queue into casual matches. Because who cares-it's casual.

Premades queue for premades only once the mode is healthy enough. Don't need solo queue to match with premade groups at all, even in casuals. Anyone thinking otherwise is just looking for an advantage to stomp PUGs.



All these arguments were used before when premades were unrestricted. It just led to abuse and people gaming the system more than they are now. This is specifically why SE said solo queue only and premade queue later depending on how healthy the mode and queues are.



If you don't like it, blame those that abused the system before. It is their fault.