Like others I see in these posts, I finally made a forum account after all these years to add to the feedback on samurai changes.
Tenka Goken/Kaeshi: Goken
Really? Look how they massacred my boy! It makes no sense. There was a lot of joy of lining up the cone on groups of enemies, it had range, and the cone was big. Having to move around and adapt to the grouping to get the right angle, it felt GOOD and it looked COOL :cool: .... but, now? I get myself right in the middle of enemies and fart slashes from my rear, it has no reach anymore, it looks bad, and feels terrible. It's awful. Please, if anything, change this one back. What is the idea behind this design choice? IDK :confused: Goken can go back to what it was. Please!
Hissatsu: Kaiten
This one I'm more understanding of, but it was fun to use and it looked cool. I will miss the animation. Now I'm spamming more Shinten on targets which is not as enjoyable, although, spamming more Kyuten on groups is. Getting rid of Kaiten feels like another punishment for players who use all their tools properly.
Third Eye
4 seconds is better than 3. Thank you.
Potency changes, I'll leave that discussion to the pro gamers. Where is the joy in a guaranteed critical hit? I just wanted to share how my user experience has become worse. Rotations feel so lame now. We've gone from samurai mains to samurai pains.
If you wanted to get rid of button bloat, weaponskill and ability combos could be reduced into one button each. This would make it easier for people who struggle to do the absolute basics of the job, without punishing those who can play it well. Instead, Kaiten is gone, and the guaranteed crit is an illusion with reduced potency. Wouldn't a guaranteed crit be the same as a higher potency attack with guaranteed NO crit? Get what I'm saying? Or is there enough value range in the guaranteed crit to justify it as actually being a crit for a random higher value? Not a fan. Crits should be a bonus that you get excited about!
Absolutely terrible decisions were made here, enough to make me voice my opinion for something I care about. Please revert Goken if anything. Please bring back Kaiten, or at least program the animation into the beginning of Iaijutsu.
*sheaths katana and throws it into the Ruby Sea* No more pain.
goodbye samurai
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04-29-2022, 12:49 AMranzougoodbye samurai
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04-29-2022, 01:13 AMTabrisOmbrelame
If you take into account the balancing : Removing Kaiten and potency change.
Removing Kaiten will allow you to use more Shinten. If we base our math on Shinten, this mean Kaiten (20 Kenki) = 216 Potency. But of course, boosting Midare by 50% with Kaiten mean a 330 potency boost.
So they remove Kaiten, added an auto crit and nerfed Midare quite hard : 990 with Kaiten -> 640 auto crit (6.11). 350 Potency loss (crit DMG compensate that a little if you meld full crit tho)
Ogi Namikiri got a strong nerf too. From a total of 2700 Potency (With Kaiten) to a mere 1600 + Crit. We barely compensate the Potency loss with the crit. But that's not even true, the truth is : It compensate the Potency it had earlier but like it has not crit nor DH.
My math are surely wrong in a general mean, I don't take other parameter into account.
I hope for samourai that they will rework it for 6.2 into something more interesting than before. Even more than a Kaiten-based Samourai, At least I hope so -
04-29-2022, 03:28 AMranzouWeather your math here is right or wrong, the general idea of it remains. A thought that I wanted to add is that, in general, they have removed a degree of decision making for the player by removing Kaiten. What I mean is that maybe you don't need to use Kaiten before your Goken or Midare Setsugekka knowing that an unbuffed attack will suffice depending on the situation, and you can save your Kenki for the next one. This applies more to casual content, which I assume is the majority of the player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame
I find joy in strategically thinking about my actions in dynamic scenarios, in any game. I feel that it is a step in the wrong direction to remove choice from the player, unless it is absolutely redundant (which is seemingly not the case with Kaiten). I feel that having 3 separate buttons for 2 different combo chains, and 2 separate buttons for the others is highly redundant. They only reason for their existence is to provide the ability to mess up the combo, and waste hot bar space (especially with controller). Why not consider the UI/UX and increase QOL? Instead, they remove a loved ability and nerf the skills.
"Pathetic." - Lahabrea -
04-29-2022, 03:51 AMcjbeagleI'm actually a huge fan of the 3 different combo chains.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranzou
If I just need a stamp real quick to refresh my dot, the Yukikaze chain is faster than the others - player choice and optimization opportunity.
If I'm popping Meikyo Shisui, I generally want to Yukikaze first so all 3 charges are spent on the longer combo chains - more player choice and optimization opportunity.
If I'm out of cooldowns and don't need to refresh anything, just doing the standard rotation, I find the samurai combos more interesting than any other melee.
Samurai: 1-2-3-1-4-5-1-6
Monk: 1-2-3-4-5-6
Dragoon: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-5-4
Reaper: 1-2-3
Ninja: 1-2-3, sometimes 1-2-4 -
04-29-2022, 04:09 AMranzouOh no I totally agree the combos are great and that's one of the reasons why I main samurai. To clarify I mean have at least the Gekko, Kasha, and Yukikaze chains as 3 distinct buttons. There's no reason for the player to go from Hakaze to Gekko and miss Jinpu, or say if I use Meikyo Shisui I'm not going to use it on Jinpu or Shifu to get the buffs like earlier versions. Nothing wrong with the combos themselves. I think this is something that can be cleaned up. But if there are players who enjoy having all the weaponskill hotkeys as is, that's totally cool and I can imagine the reasoning behind it (less braindead, etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by cjbeagle
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04-29-2022, 04:20 AMcjbeagleI see! I completely misunderstood you - apologies!Quote:
Originally Posted by ranzou
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04-29-2022, 04:33 AMCeridwen
If there's a choice in a combo, it shouldn't be altered. If there isn't, and they're fussing about bloat, then I don't have a problem with combining them into one. One key you hit 3 times, rather than 3 keys you hit in order. It's not like I ponder, then hit the third in my melee combo before the 2nd, after all. If you have smaller hands, small fingers, it would be nice. It's nothing I'd ask for, nothing I'd care about in a big way, but I don't think hitting 3 keys makes it more interesting. If there's no choice. I don't think it would work on most classes. For myself, I have *some* trouble positioning my oGCDs to hit easily between the melee combos, so I'd like it. (I do have a little keyboard, which helps.)
Either way, I'd rather they combine than remove iconic abilities or spells. -
04-29-2022, 05:25 AMranzouThank you, this is a much more concise way of what I was trying to explain. It's not as bad on keyboard, but on controller it's so unnecessary. Playing on controller makes the game feel much closer to an action RPG rather than traditional MMORPG. An MMOARPG if you will haha. In this case, I would definitely rather hit 1 button 3 times. If there was more feedback on hitting targets, it would almost feel like smacking enemies with a combo in FF7R.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceridwen
I'll admit, I'm guilty of hitting the wrong one at times if I get distracted. It is the ultimate shame. If you look at a job like monk, it doesn't allow you to get ahead of yourself in the chain.Quote:
It's not like I ponder, then hit the third in my melee combo before the 2nd, after all.
Agreed.Quote:
Either way, I'd rather they combine than remove iconic abilities or spells.
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04-29-2022, 06:43 AMCeridwenOh, by mistake, all the time! Especially on the dragoon - I have flown off SO many edges by hitting the wrong button. Rdm, too. Most recently, I backflipped off Rhalgr's finger, having positioned myself accurately before that. Always humiliating! I should play a class that doesn't so easily self destruct.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranzou
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04-29-2022, 07:23 AMHolyReign
I am happy that you've taken the initiative in creating a forum account, like many many others have recently, to share your experiences and feedback on the current state of SAM. I am sure by the sheer amount of these feedback threads written by new forum account creators, that the developers have taken note of just how unpleasant these changes made playing SAM.
Cheers. -
04-30-2022, 03:39 AMdeadman1204
Oh the hyperbole!
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04-30-2022, 06:13 AMFrogBiscuitAre you lost?Quote:
Originally Posted by deadman1204
Or do you have just a strange tick that drives you to post entirely disconnected, irrelevant and nonsensical posts?
Or is this a case just of you having learned a new word and are just inappropriately using it where ever you can? -
05-02-2022, 01:02 AMAmh_Wilzuun
The changes feel like they were made to optimize a developer workflow and damage calculations rather than on what is most fun for the players. Devs, please keep your priorities straight!
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05-02-2022, 01:29 AMxAFROxDefinitely feels like something more self-serving. They've given about four different reasons on why the change to SAM happened and none of it really adds up under scrutiny except for the one about them 'feeling' limited by a specific action that the job came with at launch. If it was really so bad, they should've altered it rather than take it away. Them asking us to look forward to changes when the change only seems bad to the whole player base seems very concerning and I would like for them to address this in some way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun
An elaboration of what's intended would be a start, or listening to feedback that many have suggested would go a long way in showing they listen.
I just don't want to be in that boat of falling out of love with a job again. It already happened to me with DRK. SAM is all I gave left alongside GNB -
05-02-2022, 01:47 AMEdweenaSo Tenka Goken being changed into a circle aoe may be an attempt to decouple it from requiring a target, and a general homogenization to moving AOE to targetless AOE's as they're more "intuitive" apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranzou
This a is a wee bit of an issue on Samurai since we're casting the fucking thing in what amounts to a four+ way intersection instead of the safety of the metaphorical sidewalk.
I myself would like the old Tenka Goken back because it was a bit of variety and led to me having more inputs to maintain the combo and my position relative to and from circle aoes to cone aoes, lots of WASD between the combos!
Also they just inputted an option this same patch for abilities that require a target to automatically select a target upon using the action, which would have done enough to fix the issue for those that struggled with Tenka Goken's target requirements. -
05-02-2022, 02:02 AMEdweenaWhen Yoshi-P was on stream addressing the noticeably fuming chat regarding Samurai changes he said the designer ,who made the decision, said this was "for the playerbase" so uhm yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
These changes aren't going to bring in MORE people like the Summoner or Monk reworks (which made the jobs more attractive to a wider audience while burning some of the core fans out, as a former Summoner enthusiast myself), so we do have a tangible statistic to back up our feedback.
None of the Samurai changes have addressed any issues regarding skill floor unlike the Monk changes from late SHB into EW (Grease lightning becoming a passive buff, thus no longer punishing those at the skill floor who would let it drop, along with positional requirements that were SO HEFTY it was the jobs only real identity lol) so it's really out of touch for these changes to be stated as "being for the playerbase".
And no Kaiten's removal is so little of a skill floor issue as it was the only thing that made people pay attention to their kenki, and instilled a rhythm which made tending to overflow smoother and a much less conscious effort as you would press it in rhythm with Iaijutsu, thus making a much more steady and slow kenki gain for use on shinten, instead of now just spamming it ASAP (I even moved my kenki bar offscreen lol, press shinten when it lights up, same with shoha) which kind of just feels bad. -
05-02-2022, 08:40 AMxAFROxAgreed on both your posts there. Tenka Goken needs to be fixed for sure. It needs to be a cone and it needs to be actually stronger than the combo that generates it, AT LEAST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edweena
Beyond that, though, I've seen all the replies the devs gave out which had promptly been debunked by the players they claim to have made the change for.
Whatever they're trying to do, if a grand rework is in store, I would prefer they at least wait until everything is ready to be implemented. And also, would be nice if the jobs weren't being gutted and adjusted strictly for the latest content. Saw a few people speculating that might be the case and it's pretty confusing why. -
05-02-2022, 09:18 AMEdweenaAlso previously in early EW, or late SHB I remember trying to rationalize the most effective use of Sen on 2 targets, and vaguely got to the conclusion (albeit lost to time with those numbers ;=; ) that tenka goken was a dps increase to use on two targets as it was more cost effective on sen usage while alternating kasha / gekko each w/ a yukikaze for maximum sen and fewer gcds to get into Iaijutsu faster than using just kasha / gekko.Quote:
Originally Posted by xAFROx
So yes, with how weak Tenka Goken is (and how it doesn't auto crit in comparison to Midare) our 2 target rotation that might have existed IIRC....
- Kasha(3) > Yukikaze(2) > Iaijutsu > Gekko(3) > Yukikaze(2) > Iaijutsui > Repeat excluding double Higanbanas and much more OGCD usage of Shoha (bracketed numbers represent # of GCDS in combo for a visual reminder)
(This was the idea cannot confirm if its true off the top of my head but I do remember doing it at least)
Our 2 target rotation, albeit rarely used, may very well be gone??? It was a lot of fun weaving Tenka Goken in place of Midare instead, getting out more Shoha's as you would require 2 sen instead of 3, 1/3 more Shoha usage!
God I hope I explained that well enough I don't want to dig around for the data and my old notes lol. -
05-02-2022, 09:24 AMEdweena
Yeah so I can confirm one source that reinforces the Tenka Goken 2 target rotation, https://saltedxiv.com/sam if anyone wants the link for themselves, from SHB:
When do I AoE and what about Hissatsu: Guren?
Get and keep your buffs up first!
Use AoE weaponskills & {!Kyuten} on 3+ targets.
Use single target weaponskills ( Yukikaze combo + Gekko/ Kasha combo), Tenka Goken and Hissatsu: Shinten on 2 targets.
Hissatsu: Guren is significantly better than Hissatsu: Senei on 2+ targets.
From the web page for those who do not want to browse it themself, yes I'm not crazy for thinking Tenka Goken was a dps gain on 2 targets thank you.
If Tenka Goken is still a dps gain on 2 targets I'll be surprised, it's just hard to look at potencies and immediately realize it since Goken doesn't get the auto crit treatment that Midare does, making it hard to math out myself. -
05-03-2022, 05:52 PMdarkdyllonyeah, when he had to defend this person on stream he also responded with "i OK'd the change" let that sink in an BLM main OK'd an other jobs design change, Yoshi is the director, but he has little to no idea what most other jobs really are suppose to feel like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edweena
anyone in an directors role can sign documents, but only the user knows how that product is suppose to be used.
I can admire Yoshi for sticking up for his employee, but at this point, why did this employee came to this decision that removing Kaiten would magically solve their issues and not piss the playerbase off (and even set off an chain reaction of every job fearing they'll get the SAM treatment)
imagine an Dragoon not jumping anymore, no more animation locks, sure, but it would take away an core identity of the job.