Give us more Thief Maps!

So we've been working towards thief maps for awhile, I'm not going to argue how much of a pain they are to get clears on (RNG is evil, we know this) But I am still unsure why we've never gotten thief maps from newer dungeons, even if it either sends us back to the old level 70s, or if they add 2 more rooms on to make the 80/90 maps have the same difficulty.

The achievement is annoying enough to get, some variety would be appreciated!

This is also more valid of a point as the high value items (minions etc.) from level 70 maps have plumetted in value thanks to the addition of the GC mount/minion boxes.

I cannot agree more.

The low drop rate of Thief maps added to the difficult clear rate of these maps (which is entirely based on RNG and not skill) makes the content anything but fun.

Please consider modifying this content to make thief maps more accessible. Maybe allow us to purchase them on the MB or with poetics. Thanks so much!

Getting stupid at this point, doing over 1000 maps a month and not walking away with a single clear. There is RNG and then there is torture... When an achievement has less than 100 to ever complete it, then clearly there is something wrong with it. Nothing like burning 15 thief maps and not getting past the 1st door on most of them

probably why they've not tried this again since Stormblood. They tried it and it didn't really work out.

Hidden variants of all the dungeons that feed into the same achievement seems like the best idea to me. In general I think the map achievements are some of the worst designed since ARR, but the hidden achievement specifically is just criminal.

Adding variants for all the dungeons would probably require more dev time than they would be willing to do though since they'd need to somehow add a third door to the current layouts, so just adding hidden maps to the loot tables for all of the map dungeons seems like the easiest fix to me, and then change them to be tradable since that will add drop value to all the old dungeons as well.

I agree with just a random hidden variant appearing in all of the existing portal dungeons; it would really make Treasure maps feel a bit more alive again and we wouldn't have to worry about extra map bottles clogging the code more then it already is.

Just something to make it less painful (however little) is welcomed. At this rate, I'm going to be doing 1000 maps a month potentially until the servers go down perminantly just for these last 2 achievements. Last clear we got was May 21st and May 28th.

Since then, nothing (and we do 12 hours with of maps a week minimum)

I would love to have more opportunities to obtain thief maps. Adding them as possible loot in post 70 maps would be awesome. It would also be great to provide these as a reward for the mogtome events or receiving these for other types of currency.

I want to start by saying that the continued release of new maps and the change to how the doors work going between doors to a roulette of mobs chosen has been a good way to create a new spin on something, along with the added mini game of guessing the higher/lower for a card has been a good way to keep treasure maps new and refreshing and cut back on how monotonous the long grinds for the last room can be.

That said, I do think the thing that has fallen short and proved to be a bit of a pain point is the thief maps. They don't drop from any other map, and this puts a bottle neck on how you can get them as you can't even trade or sell them on the MB. The ability to get them out of any map or the ability to put them up for sale would help to cut back on this pain point, and while it won't help much with the crazy RNG of 3 doors X 7 times, it can help you get them to get into them easier.

I hope that this issue gets some notice. I don't mind map grind, but map achievements associated with Stormblood compared to any other expansion seem to take exponentially longer. It would be nice to see Thiefs maps drop from post SB map dungeons, but it would especially help to see them become tradable.

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Originally Posted by The_JuicyFruit

I would love to have more opportunities to obtain thief maps. Adding them as possible loot in post 70 maps would be awesome. It would also be great to provide these as a reward for the mogtome events or receiving these for other types of currency.

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Be nice to get drops that are more relevant too since the 4.0 minions are now worthless :(

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Originally Posted by Gersin

I hope that this issue gets some notice. I don't mind map grind, but map achievements associated with Stormblood compared to any other expansion seem to take exponentially longer. It would be nice to see Thiefs maps drop from post SB map dungeons, but it would especially help to see them become tradable.

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We did another 60 maps (8 thief maps I think we ended up with in the end) Got kicked out on the 1st door on at least 5 of them :/

It does seem like time to revisit this old part of the game, because it's clear people still do want the achievements. Back when the idea of thief maps was conceived, I don't think SE math wizards considered with empathy how long the achievements for thief map clears would take, and now 5 years after the maps were introduced there are perilously few people who have gotten them because of the brutal RNG. So, it's time tested and it looks like there should be a change.

Nothing in the game should take half a decade to complete, so making the maps more accessible would be the most direct way to help with this. Adding to the suggestions on how to do that, thief maps buyable with allied or centurio seals could be a thing, or do some lore tie-in by making them available in Thavnair somehow.

or how bout just rare stuff stays rare. that's why it's called rare no?

but who knows you may sometime get your wish because the devs constantly provide other methods to get rare things easier over the years.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

or how bout just rare stuff stays rare. that's why it's called rare no?

but who knows you may sometime get your wish because the devs constantly provide other methods to get rare things easier over the years.

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I think you are missing the point.

Thief maps are already rare and hard to get. Once you get them, the clear rate is less than 1% (strictly based on RNG, not player skill). This means that it will require more than 2,000 thief maps to get the final achievement, requiring more than 2,000 hours. This is more time-intensive than all four ultimates combined--something the devs likely did not intend for maps (which are typically casual content).

All we are asking is for the devs to offer more ways to earn the maps, not to nerf the maps themselves.

Yoshi P himself said that playing the game should not lead to a lack-of-fun experience. Trust me--grinding thief maps is not fun at all.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

or how bout just rare stuff stays rare. that's why it's called rare no?

but who knows you may sometime get your wish because the devs constantly provide other methods to get rare things easier over the years.

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I'm not sure you quite understand how rare this achievement actually is though. I can understand why, but let me see if I can impress on you how "rare" that is.

At least two people in this thread pop 240 of their own Gazelleskin maps a month. That's in addition to any maps that everyone else in the group brings as well. Over 500 Gazelleskin maps on the low end in a month, resulting in precisely zero Hidden Canals clears in the month of June. And of course those thief maps aren't tradeable, so it's RNG on top of RNG, with a third layer of RNG if you're in a group that will be greedy with the maps instead of using them immediately.

That's not a rare achievement because it's difficult, or requires some special skill, or because it's something people don't want to do or are choosing not to do it. It's rare because it's purely a dice roll, and it's basically making you roll one specific number on a thousand sided dice. Twenty times.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

or how bout just rare stuff stays rare. that's why it's called rare no?

but who knows you may sometime get your wish because the devs constantly provide other methods to get rare things easier over the years.

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I do agree that something rare should be somewhat of a challenge or harder to get but I think there is a line that it seems that specifically the thief maps have crossed.

Just to compare looking at the fishing achievements, most of them are also RNG on top of RNG with a bit of RNG on the side. The part that in most cases makes fishing something you can deal with is that you get to try it again and again in the next hour, or day in some cases.

One of the harder fishes to catch outside of the blues in ocean fishing is Ealad Skaan, due mostly to its respawn timer that is in days, and the 90 second window. This is another somewhat bad case of the RNG on RNG that's a pain to deal with. It's not skill, it's just hitting your head against the wall until it works out.

But catching this fish still seems like something that can be done, I mean I just did it the other day. Each window you see someone in shout chat getting it and you have ways to up your chances with surface slap and chum.

With the thief maps, you don’t have that ‘Oh if I keep trying I’ll get it’ feeling with all the RNG that's built into it, really makes you feel defeated, and like you're just not having fun. You also don’t have a way to help once you get one, its RNGing your way through 7 floors each with 3 doors. Unlike fishing you're really rolling the dice without a way to help your side of the odds.

I don’t think anyone is asking for the maps to be reworked to give a higher RNG or to pull the number of doors down to the normal 2. I think everyone just wants a better, more reliable way to be able to get the map, either via MB, Allied or Centurio seals, or just drops from current maps.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

or how bout just rare stuff stays rare. that's why it's called rare no?

but who knows you may sometime get your wish because the devs constantly provide other methods to get rare things easier over the years.

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There is keeping things rare, and there is keeping things things rarer than unicorn poop. 60 maps gets us about 10 thief maps (on a good day) 200 thief maps got us 2 clears in the last 2 months or so (Both of those were within a week of each other, its now been coming up to 6 weeks since we got a clear)

Some map days we're grinding 70 maps for 12 hours

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Originally Posted by The_JuicyFruit

It would also be great to provide these as a reward for the mogtome events or receiving these for other types of currency.

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Not a bad idea. Considering how the items from these maps have plummeted so much in price without the ease of access to such maps, it'd hardly be detrimental to that small ~sector~ of the economy if they were more accessible now. That said, I think as a recurring option for moogle tomestone events is the most likely outcome we'll see — and I'm all for it. I need something to burn the tomes on that isn't platinum MGP cards, anyway.

Yes, please! While I feel the Hidden Canals were fine during Stormblood due to a steady supply of maps entering the economy from normal map runners, and while I feel the chance of getting to the end once actually inside is befitting of the rarity of the achievement, thief maps themselves have become far too obnoxious to obtain nowadays since gazelleskin maps are so rarely run by players.

Ideally I'd like to see either:

• Thief maps dropped from all map dungeons 70 and above
• Thief maps tradable and purchasable on the market board
• Thief maps as a reward from moogle tomestones (perhaps instead of Ostensibly Special Timeworn Maps)

Any single one of these would be enough to ease the burden and make it a much more palatable achievement to go for, while still maintaining most of the sense of rarity and accomplishment for the couple thousand maps required to complete the Hidden Canals 20 times.

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Originally Posted by MillhioreF

Ideally I'd like to see either:

• Thief maps dropped from all map dungeons 70 and above
• Thief maps tradable and purchasable on the market board
• Thief maps as a reward from moogle tomestones (perhaps instead of Ostensibly Special Timeworn Maps)

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These are excellent ideas. Seconded.

Be nice to not be doing thief maps for another 24 months... lol

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Originally Posted by MillhioreF

Yes, please! While I feel the Hidden Canals were fine during Stormblood due to a steady supply of maps entering the economy from normal map runners, and while I feel the chance of getting to the end once actually inside is befitting of the rarity of the achievement, thief maps themselves have become far too obnoxious to obtain nowadays since gazelleskin maps are so rarely run by players.

Ideally I'd like to see either:

• Thief maps dropped from all map dungeons 70 and above
• Thief maps tradable and purchasable on the market board
• Thief maps as a reward from moogle tomestones (perhaps instead of Ostensibly Special Timeworn Maps)

Any single one of these would be enough to ease the burden and make it a much more palatable achievement to go for, while still maintaining most of the sense of rarity and accomplishment for the couple thousand maps required to complete the Hidden Canals 20 times.

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All of these would be nice yes yes think I am still sitting on like 60+ lvl 80 ones from the last mogtome event :D

Another 9 thief maps today (56 Gazelles) and still no clears lol

Roll on the 100+ we need to do on Saturday/Sunday

Thief Maps are mentally destroying! Trying to get this achievement is anything but fun and the only items of value for doing this huge grind, rare pets etc. SE has happily made these readily available in other ways so this is nothing but an absolutely boring grind with no bonus.

And than there is the odds: Thief Maps have 7 floors 1st floor is guaranteed, but than there 6 more floors with a set of 3 doors giving you a 33% chance to get to the next floor. Here are the basic odds. MATH TIME to get to (2nd floor)33% x (third floor)33% x (4th floor)33% x (5th floor)33% x (6th floor)33% x (7th floor clear)33% = 0.137% chance of getting the clear. So with this percent all you have to do is divide 20 by .00137 which equals 14,599 THIEF MAPS. Please note we avg maybe 60-70 gazelle skin maps per run of 4.5 hours that give us 8 - 10 thief maps. so lets round this up to 10 thief maps a full evening of running maps. divide 14,599 by 10 = 1459.9 (fyi this would be number of days needed) amount of pure hours time lost just running the maps not getting them etc would be 1459.9 x 4.5 hours = 6569.55 hours.

((I would like to note that this is playing the odds and some people do get lucky, please see lottery winners but most people do not win.))

So get your RNG prayer beads out!

https://jp.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../blog/4347856/

Has a good breakdown of someone completing it 20 times. Took 2 years, 4 months. requiring 1559 maps (which is a very low end of the number) and 7351 Gazelle maps before alters, and 5806 after. So we'll call it 10,000 maps as the thief map drop rate increased after.

We typically do 150 a week, (usually takes about 10-15 hours, but for now just going on volumn) then thats about 67 weeks of doing maps at that rate. If we're not as lucky, that's going to be higher.

SE needs to change this 'Title' its not lucky at ALL!!


"Sheer Persistence and Loss of Soul" "Maps are supposed to be for the CASUAL PLAYER wanting to have fun." - SE

https://i.redd.it/50h64pa4nbb81.jpg

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Originally Posted by shandreax

MATH TIME to get to (2nd floor)30% x (third floor)30% x (4th floor)30% x (5th floor)30% x (6th floor)30% x (7th floor clear)30% = 0.0729%
So get your RNG prayer beads out!

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It's actually 0.137% to get a clear so not AS bad, but still pretty terrible lol

Definitely boosting/upvoting all the great ideas here. This achievement is true RNG torture.

Throwing my support behind this! We've gone through years of new content and new types of maps without any adjustments to older content in consideration of the limitations imposed by virtue of the popularity of newer stuff.

On top of the things mentioned here already, I'd love for the 18-hour Map Allowance to be reconsidered/re-worked. It's been the same way at least since Stormblood early access, I think, and even then it was in need of some adjustments. Now we've had three whole expansions of new maps and items added, but the Map Allowance is exactly the same.
Either we need the allowance to be lowered somewhat, to allow for more maps in general to be gathered (and hopefully saturation of new maps would encourage players to dip into older maps) OR we need separate timers for different tiers of content (for example, a separate 18-hour timer for ARR maps, HW maps, SB maps, ShB maps, EW maps, and etc going forward).

I love doing treasure maps, I think they're super fun content! But the achievements and other rewards do not age well at all and need some TLC.

Maps in General

https://scontent-den4-1.xx.fbcdn.net...7g&oe=62F9F248

My Friends doing all the tracking of maps used etc.....


https://i.imgur.com/YGL9L8X.jpg

Another successful day of maps! 9 hours total

(The top left number includes the 100ish maps we did between the 8th of June and today where we got 0 clears)

That % is inflated too due to the 2 clears we have gotten in the current sample size

https://i.imgur.com/OkHEPV2.png

Another 60ish G10 maps, 8 thief maps :/

https://i.imgur.com/FStZs8P.png

A someone who almost never does treasure maps, what even is thief map ?

So when you do G10 maps (Gazelleskins, level 70 8 man maps) you have a chance of finding a thief map. These maps have 3 doors you can pick from, and 6 sets of doors to get through

The rewards aren't fantastic (although the pure gil that drops in to your inventory is better than a standard map) the main thing these are done for is for one of the rarest achievements in the game. (get 20 clears)

The clear rate is terrible, but the items that drop are almost completely worthless to boot now. It's mainly something for the achievement hunters

Another 2 days, another lack of clear XD the % is dropping further lol

(another 70-80 G10 Maps)

https://i.imgur.com/USndueh.png

In over 3 years of play I don't think I've been past the 3rd door in a thief map.

I understand abysmally low RNG - this is after all an MMO - but at some point it turns into 'why even bother' territory and thief maps passed that threshold a long time ago.

Either increase the supply or adjust the chances!

Square Enix is listening!!!!

1. Thief Maps are a pain to even get!! WE KNOW
2. Forgot about even getting past floor 1!!! WE UNDERSTAND
3. So all of you that are trying to farm those clears!!! WE CARE!!!!
4. For casual content 0.137% chance to clear a thief map!!! QUALITY OF LIFE IS A MUST!!!!



Look at new Moogle Event Awards

"This wont get you a clear but the only thing of value left that could have been obtained from Thief Maps!! The elusive HEDGEHOGLET minion can now be obtained easily"

Have Fun, with your thief maps, that we added the worlds worst achievement too.

We will continue to make these even more annoying look forward to new updates!



MATH TIME to get to (2nd floor)33% x (third floor)33% x (4th floor)33% x (5th floor)33% x (6th floor)33% x (7th floor clear)33% = 0.137% chance of getting the clear. So with this percent all you have to do is divide 20 by .00137 which equals 14,599 THIEF MAPS.

Post-run stats again (Oh Boy!)

https://i.imgur.com/ln1zsha.png