If button bloat is such a concern, an entirely optional toggle could be added under the accessibility settings to fold certain combo strings into a single button.
But these changes in 6.1 aren't going to make the job easier to play and more appealing, they're just going to drive people away from the job. Maybe even away from the game entirely. Many players get attached to a single combat job, much like they would in other MMOs where a single character cannot switch between multiple classes. "Just play another DPS" is not always a viable solution.
"Removing variance" by flattening potencies across the board has also resulted in the most powerful skills in SAM's arsenal being reduced to dealing roughly equivalent damage to its basic combos. I was under the impression that the entire point of SAM was to have a straightforward rotation, steadily building resources in its two job gauges and spending them in a spectacular spike of burst damage. Remember when the Kenki-per-Sen value of Hagakure was nerfed because Shinten spam was an unintended playstyle? Shinten spam is back now, so I don't know what problem you think you're solving with these changes.
Is that how you want the job to play? Are you setting us up for the removal of the whole Sen gauge in a future patch, so that the entire rotation is just reduced to filling the Kenki gauge and spending it all on Shinten or Kyuten spam? Is Iaijutsu considered too complicated because it splits into 3 different skills? What is the point of SAM right now, in your minds? What is it you want it to do?
Normally these would sound like asinine and outlandish questions to ask, but given how these changes were touted as improvements for the job, I can't help but wonder if any of it was actually tested by people who like SAM to begin with. It reads more like someone completely unfamiliar with the job is trying to turn it into something else. Whatever that job is, please add it in 7.0 rather than dismantling this one. We liked SAM the way it was.
SAM needs to be rolled back to 6.08, its identity is gone.
Printable View
-
04-21-2022, 07:10 AMTheodric_ThorneSAM needs to be rolled back to 6.08, its identity is gone.
-
04-21-2022, 07:20 AMRoxus
Completely agree with you. I've read all your posts and you are always on point. I don't think much of anything was tested in this patch, sadly. Even if they do test these jobs, it's clear they don't understand how the "feel" of the job impacts it greatly.
I just want to continue to touch on the variance part. These changes were supposed to be eventually rolled out for everyone, but only we got changed. I think it's time to hold off on new jobs and work on the battle system in its entirety if it's going to continue like this. -
04-21-2022, 07:30 AMSiriusBreeze
Roll it back! Roll it back!
-
04-21-2022, 09:26 AMCeridwen
Completely agree! I'm also beginning to feel bad for wishing for less button bloat, because this is NOT what I envisioned. (I liked the gnashing fang combo put into one - I'd rather like the RDM's melee into one, too.) But I don't want THIS. I'd rather have bloat than lose the identity and feel of the class.
-
04-21-2022, 10:02 AMTheodric_ThorneAgreed. I have some fine-motor issues so frankly I really wish they would condense some individual combo strings onto one button each, because it would shave easily 4-6 keybinds off of just about any job I've tried and make them easier for me to play. But there's a world of difference between condensing some combos (entirely optionally, because I know players who would not like it if that change was forced on them) and completely dumbing down a job to make it something less than the sum of its parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceridwen
-
04-21-2022, 11:49 AMShanaShirayuki
Could not have put it better myself. You see this SE? Be prepared to see these types of threads of every day until it gets fix. What Theodric mentioned about players quitting is true; I'd imagine you do not want your bottom line to be affected by such asinine changes. Do not wait until 6.2 to fix them, fix them now before the new Ultimate releases.
-
04-21-2022, 05:29 PMSleeeeeeepySleeeeeeepYup. I'll be quitting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki
I originally played SMN. They gutted it. Okay, I level up SAM. Now it's gutted too.
Tell me with a straight face I should go level up ANOTHER job which I may or may not like? Then what? Another patch and poof it's gone?
If they don't revert SAM changes, playing another game is far safer guarantee of satisfaction. -
04-21-2022, 05:34 PMAdeacia
I've been playing my SAM a lot recently when I have time to play at all, and I haven't seen what the big deal is. Can you explain how not pressing a single key ruins the entire job? WITHOUT talking about how it "feels"
-
04-21-2022, 05:39 PMShimAokiI'll tell you with a straight face, don't play drg nin or sam as it's getting "reworks" in 6.2 potentially.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep
-
04-21-2022, 05:49 PMYukiBHow it feels is the only reason to play it, though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
But sure, I can.
It gave us something to do with kenki, previously the only gauge in the game that was something more than "dump at 50". Now we just dump at 25.
The animation flowed perfectly from the end of the last GCD into the sheathing animation of iaijutsu.
It made our big meaty attacks bigger and meatier. What we got in return, the guaranteed crits, not only hit for LESS than non-crits did before with Kaiten, but we lose the satisfaction of getting 60-100% more damage on top if we're lucky.
It reflects the class fantasy of the job, that of the patient master swordsman who waits for the perfect moment to strike. Imagine dragoon losing their jumps. -
04-21-2022, 06:04 PMAdeaciaIn other words you have nothing. I don't care about how it FEELS or LOOKS, I care about what it DOES. Damage is equivalent, animations are irrelevant. Kenki is still useful. It's just pressing one less key that had the sole purpose of making your next key press hit harder, making it pointless when they could just do exactly what they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by YukiB
-
04-21-2022, 06:07 PMYukiBIf you think what I outlined is nothing, then your opinion is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
-
04-21-2022, 06:21 PMFable_FrostCan you honestly not find another thread here where people have explained at length the question you're asking? There are countless posts. Try reading some.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
-
04-21-2022, 06:29 PMKurenXIVI assume this is just trolling but you make no point at all here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
To say abilities are pointless because they can just be removed and build in said abilities to be automatic can be applied to the point of the game just becoming a single button press. Hell what's the point of even playing at all?
The look of a job and the way it plays is extremely important. If look and feel and play style didn't matter then there'd be no need for having a plethora of jobs. We'd have 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 dps because none of that matters.
That's simply not reality.
Part of the job style of a Samurai since its introduction to XIV was always this aspect of building up to big attacks. Kaiten built upon that in a meaningful way that flows not just with visuals but with the playstyle. It was very satisfying to use and one of the more fun aspects of the job for MANY Samurai mains.
So while it seems like just 1 button the many changes placed on Samurai change how it plays and feels drastically. We now are back to lame shinten spam which looks bad and lacks any sort of punch and we do less damage on our big hits making them feel meaningless.
Sure on a spreadsheet Samurai is still "fine" but that doesn't mean people enjoy it. And I'd say that enjoyment is pretty important for a game that's supposed to be fun.
Let me put it another way. Let's say one day BLM gets updated and instead of doing long, charging hits it does super quick casts that do less damage on hit and some abilities were pruned and built in automatically. Overall they still do the same damage though. I think it's safe to say BLM players would be upset. Sure their job is functional but that's not the BLM fantasy, that's not how they should play.
I'd hope that makes sense. -
04-21-2022, 06:34 PMSleeeeeeepySleeeeeeepThis one button adds 50% potency to the next attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
This skill, alone with enough kenki gauge is how SAM pull out the DPS in the burst/buff window. Now the damage is just flattened across all the combo hits.
In concrete terms, Midare was 660 potency. Kaiten adds 330 potency to it. ON was 900 potency and Kaiten adds !450! potency. All that damage is now just chopped up and thrown around randomly (In conjunction with the hurdur guaranteed crit). Shinten is what? 250 potency. Instead of getting the shit right and bursting really hard, we now get to spam a mediocre 250 potency wet noodle. In exchange for all other combo fillers getting a slight 20 potency buff.
How is this an improvement of any kind? It's complete and utter trash. This is why everyone's asking for a straight reverse. The numbers are completely fucked across the board. There's no point continuing "discussion" in the current state.
As well, the complete fallacy across the board for the rationale. How does removing kaiten help anything? You just replacing that weave with a shinten, with less brain cell involved. Who does this benefit?
- People who don't know about weaving kaiten > They don't care either way
- People who do know > Okay, and whether they like it or not, they still press more or less same number of buttons.
So what, again, is the point of all of this? Nothing. All this has achieved is pissed off a good amount of people while the rest hardly cares. -
04-21-2022, 06:38 PMSleeeeeeepySleeeeeeepAnd you are EXACTLY THE POINT we are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
YOU
DON'T
CARE.
While the rest of us are pissed. Hurray? Round of applause? Good job SE? What you trying to argue for? It's no big deal. So it's no big deal either way to you. -
04-21-2022, 06:48 PMTsiron
I don't think I have the willpower to bench Samurai because it's literally my favourite Job in this game, but I share your disappointment with Kaiten's removal. I won't pretend I know all the numbers and etc. but for me personally it was a really satisfying skill to use in preparation for Midare Setsugekka and (in EW) Ogi Namikiri
-
04-21-2022, 07:58 PME-ZekielYou pretty much said what I was gonna say to reply to the dickhead. I tip my hat to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleeeeeeepySleeeeeeep
I miss the feel of samurai, man, I really do. Please turn this around soon SE. I don't want this falling back to the "well now everybody's used to it so we can't go back" excuse or something a lot of games pull. -
04-21-2022, 10:33 PMTheodric_ThorneI missed this part of your post earlier and meant to comment on it yesterday. Emphasis mine. SE intends to flatten potencies for everyone? This will straight-up kill the game for me. I don't want to go back to WoW, but at least they still have damage curves. At least I think. I haven't played there in over a year. I literally downloaded the BNet launcher to my new computer a few days ago just to reserve a name for a possible future Dracthyr character, but the only reason I gave the Dragonflight expansion reveal a second glance was because SE had just demolished my favorite job. If these changes come for DRG next, I will lose the will to play XIV entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxus
I'm already frustrated enough that DRG feels like garbage at level 60 because it's missing a job gauge and an AoE rotation. If SE wants to make sweeping changes to jobs, maybe ensuring they all have some semblance of a complete kit at 50 should be the goal, not...whatever this is. -
04-22-2022, 01:30 AMRoxusDRG changes are coming in 6.2 and speculation is it will get the same treatment as SAM. Yes, their entire argument for changing SAM was to get rid of "crit variance" and the "burst meta", you know, on one job and call it fixed for the time being. We are ahead of the changes and essentially an experiment. Any other outliers where you do high numbers of damage are likely to be "addressed".Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne
-
04-22-2022, 02:34 AMCelestiCerTroll post aside, the Argument PoV = " As long as it DOES something ". Numbers / Effectiveness / Effiency / Optimized. Hollowed, from what makes a Job a Job. Soulless. The PoV to invalidate how many enjoy playing a unique job. Let's use that logic and go imagine funny stuffiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
======================
New Samurai Rework!!!
SAM DPS average output performance every 30 seconds is 200.000. An imaginary random number. Though players only care about what SAM DOES so we are adjusting Samurai.
- All SAM skills removed
- Sen Gauge removed
- Kenki Gauge removed
- Midare now does 200.000 damage
- Midare does not Crit nor Direct Hit
- Midare Cast time changed to 30 seconds
======================
Now this might not FEEL great? casting only Midare for 30 seconds
Now this might not LOOK great? cause you have no rotation no flare
But who CARES? it DOES the job! your numbers are the same!
An extreme example of how far you can take this PoV because everything else doesn't matter, only the performance. Unless it's the PoV to mix Skill Expression / Parsing / Raiding / Optimized Damage together, the PoV of only purely wanting performance for the sake of performance and nothing else? means there's no line to be drawn and we can take it to absurdity. Please... for the next troller, stop having this take it's so poor... -
04-22-2022, 02:49 AMVincentHImagine such a POV in development, like how would you even decide which class to play? Purely based on role? Flavour is as important as the way YOU as the player feel for the job your´re playing, it creates a fun experience, unless you just want DPS to only have a sword, TANKS a shield and HEALERS a staff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
-
04-22-2022, 04:45 AMCeridwenAlso, condensing buttons doesn't remove the animation or the *feel* of gameplay (and *feel* is what makes me enjoy a class, any class, rather than its numbers - that, & being useful to a group.) My hands are fairly small (lalafell-aside) so it's a pain. But I'll take the pain over eviscerating a class as they've done to the Samurai. Watching that move was the reason I thought, "Ok, I'll make one." Then I couldn't see it on my lalafell, so I used it on my bunny. And then they took it away. That's discouraging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne
-
04-22-2022, 05:57 AMcjbeagleFeel aside, Kaiten served 2 major functional purposes in the samurai kit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
Since Kaiten was used to buff Iaijutsu, it made spending kenki part of the rotation. Without Kaiten, kenki no longer cares about stickers, so the job's 2 gauges no longer have interplay. The timing of kenki spending relative to stickers no longer matters - a step towards mindless gameplay.
Since Kaiten was part of your rotation, you needed to make sure to have 20 kenki when you needed it. Without Kaiten, kenki management is completely gone - it wasn't hard before, but now it isn't needed at all - another step towards mindless gameplay. -
04-22-2022, 06:55 AMFrogBiscuitWhat a snide brat...Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
1. you simply dismissing another person's concerns doesn't mean they have nothing, it just means you are callously and casually dismissing numerous factors that many many players feel are important to their experience. In what kind of self centered world makes you believe that your own opinions of what equates to 'fun' applies to everyone else?
2. What SAM does currently, after 6.1 is far lighter finishers, a far clunkier rotation that has more button spam, and a kenki gauges that serves virtually no purpose, as a player could just be warned that its time to hit shinten again just with the button lighting up.
3. Damage is not equivalent. Our finishers hit for almost half of what they used to. If you want to discuss it from another approach, the tiny bit of skill that separated players that were engaged with the class from those that were just plain lazy is no longer really a damage difference. By automating the rotation, it lessens the potential for player error and difference in actual game play.
4. Animations are not irrelevant in the slightest. You come in here tripping over yourself, slinging around your own opinion like it is fact, when its a discussion of opinions... (not to mention that your opinion is shared by very few.)
5. In what way is Kenki still useful? Can you actually articulate a single one of your points with a legitimate reason? Or is it your habit to just speak your mind without any thought behind it? There is no more kenki management anymore. There wasn't much management in the first place but at least you had to pay attention. After 6.1 you just blow your kenki when you have the required amount.
6. Its not just pressing 1 key less. Its removing a key action that was used in effectively every cycle of a SAM's rotation. Not only did it give the player choice over when and how to spend their burst, but it gave a chance for mistakes as well which bad players would hopefully learn from.
Besides all that, the main argument is the look and feel of the class. You unintelligently dismissing that factor doesn't change how the vast majority of SAM players have responded to these changes.
Why do you even play ffxiv? I imagine its because you feel enjoyment from playing it... But go ahead, keep lying to yourself in trying to make incredibly obscure and moronic counter-arguments like how a player's enjoyment of their class shouldn't matter to them, its only about numbers... -
04-22-2022, 07:21 AMKYuumaGo play a damn spreadsheet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeacia
-
04-22-2022, 12:38 PMAziraSyuren
How a job feels is literally the only thing that matters. This game is so obnoxiously well-balanced that it can't be any other way. Its output can have a large impact on feel (see: 4.0 DRK, which sucked) but changes that make the gameplay of a job worse for no good reason are never good even if they have no net impact on damage.
Of which there have been a lot lately, it seems. -
04-22-2022, 02:09 PMTankHunter678
They may as well simply remove kenki as one of our meters. They could yank the kenki cost off of our mobility tools to function like Reaper, as currently they are just a damage loss. They could yank the kenki cost off of Senei and Guren since they already are on a 2 minute cooldown. Ikkishoten could just be removed to toss the 2 minute cooldown on Ogi Namakiri. Shinten could get a potency buff, put on a cooldown, and a new animation to feel actually feel good.
It reminds me of what happened in Shadowbringers to AST. They took away the card toolkit and reduced every card to just being Balance cards, as a result the class fell apart in both feel and numbers and needed lots of buffing. Since then it has been potency creep to the point that it heals harder and for cheaper then WHM, while still lacking what made the class so engaging in the first place. -
04-22-2022, 05:23 PMcjbeagleActually, even more absurdly - they aren't a damage loss - they both cost 10 kenki for 100 potency whereas Shinten is 25 kenki for 250 potency, so all 3 abilities are a 1:10 kenki-to-potency ratio...so...ya know...if you get bored of spamming Shinten, feel free to randomly use Gyoten even if already in melee - won't hurt your dps. =/Quote:
Originally Posted by TankHunter678
Edit: kenki-to-pontency...as oppoosed to kenki:potency (is there a way to disable auto-emojis? ~_~)