Dancer DPS is just too low

Give it a guarantee crit on tech step or standard step. Do something. Idk. Thoughts?

DNC is a support job, their personal dps is supposed to be low since they increase the rdps of party members. As for auto crits...why would you want that? One of your core buffs increases you crit chance and direct hit chance. An auto crit would legit hurt dnc like how its hurt sam and turned their big hits into wet noodle auto crits that cant direct hit.

Except RDPS is also painfully low, even more so after the Sam nerf. Besides, what exactly is a support job? What kind of support does Dancer bring that other classes don't? Monk and Ninja both boost raid DPS by 5% and are among the top RDPS in the game. RPR, SMN have 3% buffs and raidwide heals, SMN also has res, RDM has 5% dps buff, heals and res. You could basically say every class but BLM, SAM and MCH are support classes.

DNC has the lowest personal DPS as well as lowest RDPS (yes even with all their amazing buffs) across all categories except savage 90 percentile + raiders. At which point they're the 2nd lowest. The problem with DNC is for it do even do remotely well it needs 7 other players who do their rotations perfectly, sync burst windows with buff windows perfectly and never get hit with a dmg down and this is especially true for their dance partner. Then and only then does DNC put out decent RDPS though still lower than every other class but MCH. This is made worse by DNC being considered easy and a beginner friendly class. While playing DNC isnt hard, if you do not coordinate buff windows their DPS tanks severely, which is the case with most normal content Dancers and why the class is so much lower on RDPS than any other. So while yes beginner friendly, to actually perform well with DNC you need to play others who are playing on a very high level.

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Originally Posted by Counterpoint

Give it a guarantee crit on tech step or standard step. Do something. Idk. Thoughts?

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I'd rather see a buff to DNC's buffing ability than an increase in personal DPS so they can keep some level of distinction from other classes.

its fine, dancer has a lot of utility

If their RDPS cannot recover after a death where a tank can clearly outmatch due to more uptime - then it's too low. Basically, a DPS should be able to recover and be on top of a tank (if not more than say 1-2 deaths 3 might be pushing it)

If this isn't happening then there's something in the kit that's messed up/not tuned because a ranged is nerfed that way due to having better uptime than other jobs, especially ones without cast timers. At least that's the whole logic of the matter from the devs themselves as to why ranged are not higher performers.

Just my overall opinion.

Maybe if people worried less about numbers and worried more about getting better at their main class and mechanics, we wouldn't have so many classes changed to braindead shells of what they used to be.

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Originally Posted by Counterpoint

Give it a guarantee crit on tech step or standard step. Do something. Idk. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Kniteroad

Maybe if people worried less about numbers and worried more about getting better at their main class and mechanics, we wouldn't have so many classes changed to braindead shells of what they used to be.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

The problem with DNC is for it do even do remotely well it needs 7 other players who do their rotations perfectly, sync burst windows with buff windows perfectly and never get hit with a dmg down and this is especially true for their dance partner. Then and only then does DNC put out decent RDPS though still lower than every other class but MCH.

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I am genuinely curious how Dancers are underperforming if it is the case. I thought they got buffed recently, though idk much about anything other then SAM. Dancers DPS is too low <- this sentence is based on what?

- Are we going off of FFlogs
- The feeling of numbers that pop in game on Dancer Attacks?
- Is this based on Raiding or casual PvE?
- Did you perform your rotation even closely to perfection?
- Was this cause Dancers were nerfed in a previous patch?
- Disagreement with the jobs identity?
- Not enjoying Dancer role and utility?
- How much higher does Dancer DPS need to be?
- Are any of these questions going to be answered from a BiS Dancer PoV?
- Or is it about rDPS being to low?
- How much higher in rDPS is acceptable?

I been trying to grasp a bit reading the forums the frustrations of other classes, and trying to just kinda understand... how bad the other classes are doing or were changed since I... well I kinda just don't know not even being sarcastic I am genuinely curious and I don't know -> I'm John Snow idk

It's still higher then MCH and has higher utility.
It's a solid second place in the ranged melee dps.

Physical ranged has been low for years now. That's not a good thing, its just the way things are. I see no reason the Physical Ranged sub-role should do less damage than melee or casters when neither of them really have much issues with downtime anymore.

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Originally Posted by Akava

Physical ranged has been low for years now. That's not a good thing, its just the way things are. I see no reason the Physical Ranged sub-role should do less damage than melee or casters when neither of them really have much issues with downtime anymore.

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I mean smn and rdm are pretty middle of the pack too and rdm still has a lot of casting and potential downtime. The physical ranged classes essentially have 100% uptime and will always have a ranged tax because of that. Or would you prefer bow mage to return?

I've been debating going back to bard simply because current raid tier is so heavy on movement, especially P3S making positional's a chore.

The problem with the range tax argument is that it doesn't always apply. P1+2S, for example, don't really have moments that make it so you can't hit them on melee since most of their AoEs can still allow max melee range to hit them. Then when we account for the removal of positions on all by 1-2 attacks from melee role making movement less of an issue as well as the increase in mobility on casters so that they're no longer turrets and the ranged tax makes little sense to keep anymore.

personally i dont fancy phys ranged much because it is ridiculously easy to have full uptime: melee need some magic here and there and very tricky/careful positioning and even timing, casters/healers need to slidecast often and preposition too while the phys ranged runs 2 laps around everyone b4 they get to where they need to be

id wager this is the one and only reason phys ranged is tuned lower than other dps types... DNC was weak into EW, got some potency buffs, i think that put the job in a good spot

u should never be comparing ur dps/rdps to other jobs, at most within only the phys ranged role and normally only the job itself (aka other dancers)

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

The problem with the range tax argument is that it doesn't always apply. P1+2S, for example, don't really have moments that make it so you can't hit them on melee since most of their AoEs can still allow max melee range to hit them. Then when we account for the removal of positions on all by 1-2 attacks from melee role making movement less of an issue as well as the increase in mobility on casters so that they're no longer turrets and the ranged tax makes little sense to keep anymore.

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There are several mechanics in P2S that force melee to be unable to hit the boss that have no effect on physical ranged jobs. Regardless if its few or many, the fact remains those situations have no impact of physical ranged jobs. Could they use a bit more potency? Sure, but you have to still be careful and take uptime into account on top of the fact that BRD and DNC still give pretty significant buffs to the raid.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There are several mechanics in P2S that force melee to be unable to hit the boss that have no effect on physical ranged jobs. Regardless if its few or many, the fact remains those situations have no impact of physical ranged jobs. Could they use a bit more potency? Sure, but you have to still be careful and take uptime into account on top of the fact that BRD and DNC still give pretty significant buffs to the raid.

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There is literally two mechanics that forces melee to disengage. One being the luck of the draw for Limit cut phase and the other whether they get the debuff or not. Potentially melee will have full uptime depending on what they get.

The whole range must have a damage tax is complete rubbish when melee and heck even casters have the same uptime on boss as the physical range. Honestly the whole physical range role needs to be looked at as it shouldn't be as low as it is now.

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Originally Posted by Sioken

There is literally two mechanics that forces melee to disengage. One being the luck of the draw for Limit cut phase and the other whether they get the debuff or not. Potentially melee will have full uptime depending on what they get.

The whole range must have a damage tax is complete rubbish when melee and heck even casters have the same uptime on boss as the physical range. Honestly the whole physical range role needs to be looked at as it shouldn't be as low as it is now.

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The only mechanic that will curse melee on P2S is getting the 1/3 tethers on LC. Even then, you’ll only lose…a GCD or two before the boss goes invulnerable. You can melee uptime the 2nd debug if you get it.

Even when respecting the boss mechanic like a madman, you can lose 15 GCDs maximum.
And in EW, unless you're a MNK who has access to thunderclap, you can use your ranged attack that won't make you lose much.

Considering the worst scenario, 15 GCDs is not what will make the gap between ranged and melees.

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Originally Posted by Sioken

There is literally two mechanics that forces melee to disengage. One being the luck of the draw for Limit cut phase and the other whether they get the debuff or not. Potentially melee will have full uptime depending on what they get.

The whole range must have a damage tax is complete rubbish when melee and heck even casters have the same uptime on boss as the physical range. Honestly the whole physical range role needs to be looked at as it shouldn't be as low as it is now.

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Doesn't matter if its only 1GCD. Fact remains that its there and something that physical ranged can ignore regardless of mechanics.

DNC dps is too low? Not when MCH is even lower.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

DNC dps is too low? Not when MCH is even lower.

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I'd love to see your data that shows this, I posted mine in the other thread where MCH is even beating RDM and SMN in some content. So, that statement is false. It was only Savage and Extremes at 99 percentile+ that DNC surpassed MCH and the difference is 1-2%.

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

I'd love to see your data that shows this, I posted mine in the other thread where MCH is even beating RDM and SMN in some content.

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https://i.imgur.com/ljh4HWr.png
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/44

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Originally Posted by Cyd3l

It was only Savage and Extremes at 99 percentile+ that DNC surpassed MCH and the difference is 1-2%.

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See this is the problem, MCH should be higher at all levels, because DNC has utility, MCH doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

https://i.imgur.com/ljh4HWr.png
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/44


See this is the problem, MCH should be higher at all levels, because DNC has utility, MCH doesn't.

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So MCH on average does better, but BRD and DNC when played at the highest lvls do better which is what I have been saying. Where is DNC utility required? Again when playing at the highest levels you do not need curing waltz 300 potency heal every 1 min. It may help in progression runs, but so does not being a buff class which is why MCH wins out in progression runs. DNC requires 7 other members to play perfectly to reach higher than MCH dps, thats not a benefit thats a penalty. Because in any situation where that is not the case you are just inferior. But that's the tradeoff of being a class who buffs others. If the culmination of your buffs can't compare with just the DPS output of 1 individual class then why would you ever want to bring a buff class? DNC cant get high DPS without a high personal DPS class assisting them. Again a penalty. MCH doesn't rely on any outside circumstances to achieve their dps. SO when the stars align and you get 7 people to execute their jobs perfectly i think its ok for DNC and BRD to pass MCH by 1-3%. Because 99% of the time in this game that doesn't happen for most players.

Focus on the issues. A selfish range DPS doesn't make sense because of the range tax. MCH can't compete with BLM or SAM because of this, so yes this is an issue. The fix isn't invalidating DNC and BRD tho. Either MCH needs utility / buffs as well, or it needs an entire re-design to justify it doing more DPS at a cost of mobility like melee and casters. But in its current state just upping potency to make it superior to DNC and BRD in all situations might fix 1 class and break 2 others.

Oh there's many issues. Doing lower DPS than DNC and BRD is just one of them. There's plenty of feedback on the other issues, but it goes ignored like most things.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Oh there's many issues. Doing lower DPS than DNC and BRD is just one of them. There's plenty of feedback on the other issues, but it goes ignored like most things.

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Dancers should be doing lower than Bard due to the utility they bring though. Their intended purpose was to make their dance partner shine.

The recovery issue is a concern because it makes it look stupidly bad that tank privilege outshines on a failed mechanic when a ranged DPS dies - whether their fault or not. While not expecting Range to Top the charts anytime soon - they're still a DPS and it does concern me when tanks can overpower the numbers the ranged utility bring. That doesn't mean tanks can't do DPS. I'm stating balance this more correctly. It's very unbalanced in role design.

It's also strange that ranged are in a spot where they'd at least be good AT having fun dungeon runs - Ranged jobs were a fun go to with having good solid AOE during those runs and handling trash. Now even that's taken away. I'm a bit puzzled at the balance there.