My Review of 6.1 Story Content

The following is a review of the story content from the role quest and MSQ introduced this patch for discussion and reflection. I wrote these as I played through the content, so the overall tone may fluctuate considerably as they are essentially live reactions.

On Garlemald – complete mismanagement and a terrible ending.

And Garlemald becomes another United State of Final Fantasy. Imagine my surprise. No one seemingly had the time to put together a few already existing assets to make Nerva’s human form prior to his transformation. Fourchenault offering them Sharlayan citizenship after having nearly condemned them to abandonment was...something. Then they ended up being sent to the moon. Seriously? This is what they decided to lock behind the final role quest? These events sound so unusual that people think I am joking when I try to discuss Garlemald’s fate.

Overall, from the decision to completely scrap a Garlemald expansion to the Empire reverting to a republic with some few individuals choosing instead to go live on the moon, this was just bad story telling. Too much rushing on this and too much investment in meme slice of life moments with the Scions. Enough already. Stop trying to make the Sims University: the mmorpg and get back to making a Final Fantasy game. I do not know who is responsible for handling Garlemald’s fate but they have lost a great deal of my confidence in their ability to carry major story elements like this forward.

The more that these once distinct nations become just another republic one after the other, the less and less magic and uniqueness there is in FFXIV’s world. It is high time for this trend to stop. The last monarchy remaining in the world to my knowledge is Doma’s, everywhere else is just another democracy, apart from Gridania being ruled by its conjurers and Limsa being pirate land. Garlemald’s fate was little more than another attempt to preach some vague, cookie cutter dream of democracy onto us again like they did in Ishgard and Ala Mhigo. I suppose I can also expect Hien to abdicate his throne at some point as well, and for Alphinaud to run for office in his place. Goodness.

The Problem of the Scions.

Y’shtola, despite being one of the more stagnant characters since Endwalker, at the very least got to show off her Titania voice in the English dub, which is also voiced by the same VA. I did enjoy this moment, I’d wish she’d go into crazy fae mode more often if they are insistent on keeping her around. Titania and all things fae was a major high point for me back in Shadowbringers, and this VA’s performance as Dragon Age’s Sera was also excellent. Y’shtola however is in desperate need of vulnerable moments rather than this constant sassy act-I cannot stress enough how stale this has gotten over the years. If nothing else, it is refreshing to see her pursue the goal of shard travel, giving the character some sense of direction at last. This is a character who is more defined by fakeouts and constantly being brought back to life than anything else of substance. Women in this game rarely have vulnerable moments these last two expansions in stark contrast to previous Final Fantasy games like FFIX’s Garnet or FFX’s Yuna, some of FF’s strongest heroines who grew the most over their journeys, instead those moments are almost always delivered by the following character:

G’raha Tia continues to be little more than comic relief and seems to act more as a vehicle for testing and showing off new animations than a character who deserves to take up screentime. This was one of the best characters in Shadowbringers and seeing him reduced to a running gag is just sad. His behavior is a problem. His mannerisms continue to push on the limits of my patience and I want nothing more than to tell him to get lost. I do not want him in my party anymore. I mentioned this before in a previous thread but if you are going to have a male character constantly be obsessed with the player character either give us the option to avoid his antics or at least let this obsession come from a character with a traditionally masculine look, without the memelike mannerisms. I would not care if someone like Aymeric flirted with my character for instance, or any of the other male characters in the game who look like men.

Evolve these characters in meaningful ways or replace them with new party members. Do not follow WoW in having unkillable forever characters like Sylvanas who took over 20 years to exit the plot. The twitter fans you are trying to please with the Scions will move on to the next pretty face the moment they see it. They will happily adopt them as their new comfort characters and not only will they be satisfied, so too will those of us whose patience has been exhausted by the lack of stakes or development of the Scions.

And no, Ultima Thule wasn’t stakes, that was a fakeout that a significant amount of us could see coming from a mile away. Please respect the intelligence and maturity level of your audience, it was just too predictable. Those of us who fell in love with this game in Heavensward sorely miss the writing style of that expansion, please consider bringing back that team who is believed to have worked on FFXVI back to FFXIV at the earliest convenience.

The Void – the star of this patch.

As I entered this patch, I was prepared for a slow start. Not 30 seconds into the patch, suddenly I find myself looking at an impressive vista of the void, with its swirling sky of lavender clouds and beautifully ornate ruins. My first thoughts on seeing this were: “I want to go here *now!*” I was truly impressed, and thankful that I have something concrete to look forward to in the future in wake of my other disappointments with the recent writing. Forget Ishgard, I want housing on the 13th. Whoever designed this area along with Pandaemonium’s castle has my respect and admiration. While I am saddened by the shelving of Garlemald, the 13th shard gives me a new area to be invested in.

A hauntingly beautiful dark fantasy world, whose denizens I have a degree of sympathy for, given the history of the 13th shard. Talk of the void would not be complete without mentioning Golbez, I am so glad to see him in FFXIV at last. Regardless of whether he stays on for the MSQ or is just for the upcoming trial series, his presence is a welcome one. Introducing more humanoid characters to the void will provide a suitable basis for stories told in its setting. I would however strongly caution against using the meme/slice of life moments we’ve been seeing lately in the MSQ in the void, that stuff hardly has a place on the Source let alone the 13th.

Though we have seen ruins of some kind of temple along with Golbez’s throne, the close up of the floating island area where various Gargoyles and Kindred congregated during Y’shtola’s explanation was largely incomplete and lacking in detail. Even if not truly alive, to make the void more visually appealing, structures such as grass and trees should be added. Any remaining settlements I naturally imagine would take after the ruins showcased in the MSQ along with places like Dun Scaith.

Again, this was the highlight of the patch for me and now serves as the hook that keeps me attached to this story after having lost Garlemald to the United States of Final Fantasy trend and the conclusion of the Ancients’ storyline. I am especially intrigued by Zenos’ voidsent given that it seems the model has been touched up somewhat and eyes have been added in. For those who may not have played FFXIII, the hands over the creature’s eyes are very reminiscent of Cie’th. To summarize, Cie’th are essentially people who fail the focus (mission) given to them by the gods (Fal’Cie), whose bodies become twisted by crystals, or in this case by the void’s taint. I can only hope that this voidsent proves to have more of a personality than Zenos and more goals beyond simply forcing a confrontation with the player character at all costs, which made for long drawn-out periods of buildup with Zenos that led to nowhere.

I still find Garlemald to have the best nuance and better writing on the 6.x story.

The decision to abandon Garlemald in 6.0 was a pragmatic one, and Fourchenault even admits here that it was something the Forum was torn on doing until the Scions made it moot. Further, this Garlemald is a different one, even from the one explored at Level 83. At that time, even the common folk were holding out hope that Varis and/or their military leaders would come back, drive out the "savages" and put things right. There is practically no military or noble class remaining. Only desperate people. The moral grayness is gone -- now, it comes to either helping desperate people in need, or not.

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I mentioned this before in a previous thread but if you are going to have a male character constantly be obsessed with the player character either give us the option to avoid his antics or at least let this obsession come from a character with a traditionally masculine look, without the memelike mannerisms. I would not care if someone like Aymeric flirted with my character for instance, or any of the other male characters in the game who look like men.

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This seems kind of like an arbitrary standard. Aymeric is so pretty and smooth that he looks like he's wearing mascara.

It seems less likely G'raha would have his gender mistaken than Aymeric, so if we're going by "characters who look like men", we might as well go with Rammbroes.

Having no surviving members of the royal family or noble class, or even giving a name or face to any senators of the new provisional government demonstrated a complete lack of care and interest. I'm supposed to believe that the final role quest was the result of hard work? Hard work at trying to further moralize I suppose, or perhaps hard work in the sense that it was hastily finished before the deadline.

Aymeric does not wear hair pins in his hair like an elementary school girl, like Lucy from the Chronicles of Narnia. His face is what you'd expect of a male elf and his hair is short and wavy. He was designed as a "tragic prince" and his mannerisms don't creep me out. Plain and simple. G'raha Tia needs to man up or get a makeover or something. I don't feel the need to elaborate further on this. Aymeric, Hien, even Rammbroes I would rather put up with than G'raha Tia.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Aymeric does not wear hair pins in his hair like an elementary school girl, like Lucy from the Chronicles of Narnia. His face is what you'd expect of a male elf and his hair is short and wavy.

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Ah yes hair "pins" (more like bands, actually). The final arbitration of what determines masculinity and femininity.

And you are correct: Aymeric's face IS what you expect of a male elf. Aka, prettier than most women.

Alright I'm putting an end to this tangent here and now-there is a clear difference between the Elven knight and catboy with a downright bizarre appearance and creepy mannerisms. One thing is a "pretty boy" another thing is whatever G'raha Tia is supposed to be. You can still be "pretty" and have a masculine attitude and mannerisms like Aymeric does. He is a serious character, G'raha Tia is not.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Alright I'm putting an end to this tangent here and now-there is a clear difference between the Elven knight and catboy with a downright bizarre appearance and creepy mannerisms. One thing is a "pretty boy" another thing is whatever G'raha Tia is supposed to be. You can still be "pretty" and have a masculine attitude and mannerisms like Aymeric does. He is a serious character, G'raha Tia is not.

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Do what you gotta do, but I'm still going to point out that your arbitrary tastes in men and what's masculine are arbitrary.

I get it, you have a burning hatred for G'raha Tia. You're welcome to your opinion.

Garlemald's future makes sense, the overall MSQ was very well done and the characters showed themselves well after just saving all existence and finally we see more about the 13th. Now, when can I get an Eikon vs Voidsent a la Meracydia vs Allag?

What defines a masculine attitude, I wonder. Stoicism isn't masculine, it's just a personality trait that people across the board share, so idk where the line is for masculine and feminine characters.

I find that G'raha's character is much more in line with his 2.x character. The G'raha we saw in ShB was a centenarian with responsibilities to a city-state of people holding onto small threads of hope. He was disillusioned, worn down, and serious out of a NEED to be serious (and still, the hints to his old self were there - heck one of his "final" requests to you was to go on adventures with you.) The G'raha we see now is what comes from merging those two together. He doesn't have nearly the same responsibilities as in ShB, so why should he act like he does?

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

I find that G'raha's character is much more in line with his 2.x character. The G'raha we saw in ShB was a centenarian with responsibilities to a city-state of people holding onto small threads of hope. He was disillusioned, worn down, and serious out of a NEED to be serious (and still, the hints to his old self were there - heck one of his "final" requests to you was to go on adventures with you.) The G'raha we see now is what comes from merging those two together. He doesn't have nearly the same responsibilities as in ShB, so why should he act like he does?

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The old man was more tolerable and less grating than the childlike G'raha Tia. The more he is pushed onto the player character the less patience I have for him, let alone the other scions. He already had his adventure with us during the final days, during which he barely did much of anything. This isn't a character who I believe will be able to grow in any meaningful ways moving forward.

Not as long as they intend on treating him like a joke and giving him plot armor so thick that not even the end of the world could put a dent in it. His sole remaining purpose is to serve as a plushie, comfort character and as long as he remains in this role then nothing of substance can come from him. There are no consequences for his actions, he has no other goals besides following us around and gushing over us every other scene. This is not conducive to good storytelling and it is best for his character to exit the plot than to continue consuming screentime doing nothing.

We're really needling in on OPs thoughts on what is masculine rather than the critiques of the story, huh? Okay then.

Just some thoughts in return.

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The last monarchy remaining in the world to my knowledge is Doma’s, everywhere else is just another democracy, apart from Gridania being ruled by its conjurers and Limsa being pirate land. Garlemald’s fate was little more than another attempt to preach some vague, cookie cutter dream of democracy onto us again like they did in Ishgard and Ala Mhigo. I suppose I can also expect Hien to abdicate his throne at some point as well, and for Alphinaud to run for office in his place. Goodness.

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True if one ignores Kugane, Thavnair, Dragon society, Idyllshire, the Viera of the Source and the First, the Pixies, pretty much every Tribe, Sui-no-Sato, I assume the Confederacy given their pirate group structure, the tribes of the Azim Steppe, the Redbills and whatever the fuck is going on with the Crystarium. Thats a lot of different societal structures. Not to mention of all the nations to become a democracy arguably the one with an already pre-existing Senate makes the most sense.

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I mentioned this before in a previous thread but if you are going to have a male character constantly be obsessed with the player character either give us the option to avoid his antics or at least let this obsession come from a character with a traditionally masculine look, without the memelike mannerisms. I would not care if someone like Aymeric flirted with my character for instance, or any of the other male characters in the game who look like men.

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I don't really see the issue with someone not traditionally masculine expressing admiration. But perhaps that's subjective.

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I would however strongly caution against using the meme/slice of life moments we’ve been seeing lately in the MSQ in the void, that stuff hardly has a place on the Source let alone the 13th.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...31/143/3e3.jpg

Jk Jk

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Just some thoughts in return.



True if one ignores Kugane, Thavnair, Dragon society, Idyllshire, the Viera of the Source and the First, the Pixies, pretty much every Tribe, Sui-no-Sato, I assume the Confederacy given their pirate group structure, the tribes of the Azim Steppe, the Redbills and the Crystarium. Thats a lot of different societal structures. Not to mention of all the nations to become a democracy arguably the one with an already pre-existing Senate makes the most sense.



I don't really see the issue with someone not traditionally masculine expressing admiration. But perhaps that's subjective.

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The locations you mention are all ones I adore. Sadly the story has pivoted away from these locations (except in the case of the Confederacy and Thavnair presently, though apart from Vrtra there is very little of interest to me in the region). At the moment I feel refreshed now that I'm hyped for the void, and interested in learning more about the goings on there. Given the lack of interesting things left to do on the Source, I'll gladly step through the voidgate and see what's on the other side.

In the case of Garlemald, those of us who liked the concept of the Empire and ones similar to it were hoping for a better resolution. Thinking back to the often cited Archades, who ended up with Larsa as emperor, a benevolent figure who still loved and wanted the best for his country, someone to root for rather than just...such a lackluster finale here in FFXIV. Even a constitutional monarchy would be a vast improvement, a figurehead emperor is better than nothing at all if it must be the case.

I suppose it is a difference of perspective, I simply do not feel that G'raha Tia's actions are reciprocated and thus they come off as creepy and like an unwanted advance. At some point after enduring too much of that I'd rather just leave the situation or in this case, skip his dialogue and look away till someone else takes to the scene. It is ok to express admiration once, if not twice in the aftermath of a critical story moment. But this is excessive. He is more of a parody now than Princess Sarah in Stranger of Paradise, but without the self-aware storytelling that made her somewhat endearing.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The locations you mention are all ones I adore. Sadly the story has pivoted away from these locations (except in the case of the Confederacy and Thavnair presently, though apart from Vrtra there is very little of interest to me in the region). At the moment I feel refreshed now that I'm hyped for the void, and interested in learning more about the goings on there. Given the lack of interesting things left to do on the Source, I'll gladly step through the voidgate and see what's on the other side.

In the case of Garlemald, those of us who liked the concept of the Empire and ones similar to it were hoping for a better resolution. Thinking back to the often cited Archades, who ended up with Larsa as emperor, a benevolent figure who still loved and wanted the best for his country, someone to root for rather than just...such a lackluster finale here in FFXIV. Even a constitutional monarchy would be a vast improvement, a figurehead emperor is better than nothing at all if it must be the case.

I suppose it is a difference of perspective, I simply do not feel that G'raha Tia's actions are reciprocated and thus they come off as creepy and like an unwanted advance. At some point after enduring too much of that I'd rather just leave the situation or in this case, skip his dialogue and look away till someone else takes to the scene. It is ok to express admiration once, if not twice in the aftermath of a critical story moment. But this is excessive. He is more of a parody now than Princess Sarah in Stranger of Paradise, but without the self-aware storytelling that made her somewhat endearing.

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I've never seen such a crap take on a character in this game tbh. It's well known that we are his idol, his inspiration. And for years he's dreamed of questing by our side and he now gets to do so. It's cute honestly. I fail to see how he's a parody of any kind. He's not making a pass at you and if you feel he is that 100% a you problem. You talk like you're well verse but can't understand simple implications...

In terms of Garl speak for yourself not other people.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

It's well known that we are his idol, his inspiration. And for years he's dreamed of questing by our side and he now gets to do so. It's cute honestly. I fail to see how he's a parody of any kind. He's not making a pass at you and if you feel he is that 100% a you problem. You talk like you're well verse but can't understand simple implications...

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And we have given him a quest. The quest is now over. In comparison to the character I grew to respect during Shadowbringers, I do not appreciate the prioritization of G'raha Tia as a "cute" comic relief character given his most prominent role that he took on during Shadowbringers. The implication is that he wants to be near me. At all costs. I do not enjoy this, and I wish his behavior would stop and that he would act like a grown man.

You cannot hope to force characters such as him onto the player and not meet with some degree of resistance from those of us who are simply not interested in being obsessed over in this way. This is someone who has fallen from grace in my eyes, if he weren't acting so ridiculous then I may have been able to ignore his pushiness but this is becoming more of a nuisance each time it pops up.

If this game had a romance system then by all means let the fans of characters like him have their fill of him over there, and leave this behavior outside of the main story. Extensive resources are likely poured into animating his eyes and tail-resources I would rather see spent on animating more battle scenes. Action. Not slice of life content. Or better yet, pour those resources into fixing whatever on earth went wrong with Hrothgar, because the 3d modelers should have absolutely prioritized fixing those player models than playing around with the animations of G'raha Tia's face and tail.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

I agree somewhat with your sentiment regarding G'raha, he feels like a bit much at times as someone who does not "ship" my WoL with him, but you lost me a bit saying it would be okay if it was coming from a more traditionally masculine character because I just don't see what that has to do with it.

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His appearance combined with his mannerisms and behavior make for a character I just don't feel comfortable being around or speaking to. Not even Haurchefaunt was as bad as this. It's a feeling of dissonance, things just don't match up in the picture. I do not think it is unreasonable to prefer, if an npc must be so obsessed with my character, that they at least conform to some standards of attractiveness in line with their gender.

I can make a case for characters like Aymeric and Hien, different as they are in their physical appearances they both present themselves as heroes with admirable personalities and physical qualities that vary considerably, but check off points in what one might find attractive in a male. This does not hold for G'raha Tia. He dresses like...a scholar? I'm not sure how else to describe his outfit but it isn't anything particularly striking, and his hair has never been great but after he joined the scions I cannot unsee the resemblance between his hair and that of Lucy's from the Chronicles of Narnia. It's just so strange.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The locations you mention are all ones I adore. Sadly the story has pivoted away from these locations (except in the case of the Confederacy and Thavnair presently, though apart from Vrtra there is very little of interest to me in the region). At the moment I feel refreshed now that I'm hyped for the void, and interested in learning more about the goings on there. Given the lack of interesting things left to do on the Source, I'll gladly step through the voidgate and see what's on the other side.

In the case of Garlemald, those of us who liked the concept of the Empire and ones similar to it were hoping for a better resolution. Thinking back to the often cited Archades, who ended up with Larsa as emperor, a benevolent figure who still loved and wanted the best for his country, someone to root for rather than just...such a lackluster finale here in FFXIV. Even a constitutional monarchy would be a vast improvement, a figurehead emperor is better than nothing at all if it must be the case.

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Not sure why Garlemald requires an emperor or monarch when it was a republic for six centuries. You push the "fantasy" angle of a direct form of government but at the same time Garlemald had modern cars, skyscrapers, trains, machine guns, artillery, paratroopers, clones, and robots.

The oldest extant government on Eitherys, Sharlayan, is a democracy and predates Ishgard by a few centuries. Sharlayan also happens to be the most magical place on the planet, with the most "classical" magic tropes like the magic academy, familiars, walking/talking frogs, libraries of forbidden tomes, summoning and binding spirits (voidsent), robes upon robes, and animated brooms (just ignore the space program). The only other republics I can think of are Ishgard, Bozja, Ala Mhigo, and Eulmore. The story has already pivoted away from those as well, so I don't know why you can disregard the three starter cities, Dravania, Doma and its many satellite petty-kingdoms, Hingashi, Nagxia, Dalmasca, all of the "beastmen", Miqo'te tribes, the Viera/Viis tribes, Azim Steppe, Confederacy, and Il Mheg.

Most of the game's nations that turned to democracy over the course of the story (and Ul'dah's failed attempt) had extremely corrupt governments built upon putting down the vast majority of the populace and royal bloodlines that ended with just 1 person who either refused to carry on the old government, died, or both. With the royal families done, those in power would have had to choose a random person to be their monarch for countries that didn't want that style of government anymore. Garlemald was all set up to fail by an Ascian on purpose so I don't know why they would decide to continue on with it when it was rigged from the start and obviously did not end up working in their favor. Considering the state of the capital and the legions afterwards, there's almost no doubt that more Garleans died killing each other during their two civil wars caused by succession crises than from all of the rebellions or the conquests combined.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Most of the game's nations that turned to democracy over the course of the story (and Ul'dah's failed attempt) had extremely corrupt governments built upon putting down the vast majority of the populace and royal bloodlines that ended with just 1 person who either refused to carry on the old government, died, or both. With the royal families done, those in power would have had to choose a random person to be their monarch for countries that didn't want that style of government anymore. Garlemald was all set up to fail by an Ascian on purpose so I don't know why they would decide to continue on with it when it was rigged from the start and obviously did not end up working in their favor. Considering the state of the capital and the legions afterwards, there's almost no doubt that more Garleans died killing each other during their two civil wars caused by succession crises than from all of the rebellions or the conquests combined.

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And those governments made each nation unique and interesting. I would rather the world be filled with nations who weren't all on the same page, who engaged with conflicts with each other, and who had strong leaders at their helms. Think of Ivalice, or FFIX's Mist continent. All that was needed was to write in 1 surviving royal, 1 Larsa, and I would have been infinitely more satisfied than this nonsensical plot of sending them to the moon.

The role quest's plot was just another round of preaching, delivered by the twins' father rather than themselves. The last prince or princess, rising from the ashes to lead what remains of their people into glory and prosperity would have resonated far more with me than "lets set up a provisional government with senators who we are not going to show on screen." If not, then any of their remaining high ranking military leaders would have been a decent replacement.

I cannot think of a worse way to have ended Garlemald's story, other than perhaps by including a scene of Fourchenault eating fast food in the middle of the city ruins with us.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In the case of Garlemald, those of us who liked the concept of the Empire and ones similar to it were hoping for a better resolution. Thinking back to the often cited Archades, who ended up with Larsa as emperor, a benevolent figure who still loved and wanted the best for his country, someone to root for rather than just...such a lackluster finale here in FFXIV. Even a constitutional monarchy would be a vast improvement, a figurehead emperor is better than nothing at all if it must be the case.

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I think Larsa is a great example, because he exemplifies why I don’t think that sort of thing works. Benevolent fascism is still fascism, and given the desires of many in Garlemald for a restoration of their military empire, a humbling of sorts is almost certainly required to justify them moving away from their cruel imperialist way. And I think it’s especially necessary given who the previous ruler was and how his line was founded in the first place.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I suppose it is a difference of perspective, I simply do not feel that G'raha Tia's actions are reciprocated and thus they come off as creepy and like an unwanted advance. At some point after enduring too much of that I'd rather just leave the situation or in this case, skip his dialogue and look away till someone else takes to the scene. It is ok to express admiration once, if not twice in the aftermath of a critical story moment. But this is excessive. He is more of a parody now than Princess Sarah in Stranger of Paradise, but without the self-aware storytelling that made her somewhat endearing.

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If you like Graha however it’s hard to say it’s not reciprocated though right?

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

Ah. It's a matter of perspective I suppose, I know there are a lot of people who are super duper hot for G'raha and headcanon that their WoL is dating him or something so his aesthetic definitely appeals to some.

I generally don't swing that way, and I headcanon that my WoL doesn't either with the rarest of exceptions, so appearances aren't really much of a factor in how I feel about his interactions with the WoL. It wouldn't matter if he looked different.

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Thanks Teah and you're 100% right it is ALL about perspective.

I like Jonathan Bailey the VA of G'raha which is quite a nice coincidence and I am looking forward to seeing him in a play at the theatre next week. My in game miqo'te finds G'raha hot and I personally do not in any way find his character as creepy or annoying, he is just excited and hyped about doing stuff together so just positive. I get he annoys alot of people, he isn't to everyones taste but i love him around and I am sure others taste isn't mine either. Shame it isn't configurable or something.

I do think the post role quest cap could have been better. It is nice though to have seen the twins father finally adopt his own father's words. The majority of the Legatus don't come off as anyone I'd want to take over. Those few who are like Gaius or even Quintus seem to be a rare breed. Nael (even the original one), Valens, Gabranth even seemed to not be "ok" mentally. Sure. Gabranth was welcoming to anyone but look at the majority of his subordinates. Almost all of them except for Lyon were horrible people that did horrible things to those on their own side.

Also Haurchefant might not have had sparkly heart eyes for the WoL, but in all of the other languages the guy practically started every conversation with the WoL with "Oh hey tasty looking snack I really wanna get into your britches, but I'm guessing that you're not here to just see litte Ole me so I'll do my best to keep it professional." The man let you know just how dang thirsty he was for the WoL at almost every chance he got. Aymeric would be just as bad as G'raha since the man literally lights up any time he sees us to the point I'm sure that if the WoL ever died he'd somehow already have our body laying in waiting in Ishgard. While the rest of the leaders are bickering over who has a better claim to us or would give us a better funeral. If there wasn't a fight between a few Ishgardian knights, shinobi and whatever Steppe representatives in the shadows. With Alpha and O.M.G watching and eating popcorn.

Honestly between this and the take I read from someone else on a different thread calling G'raha a creep and that they took "great joy in deliberately excluding him from their trusts" I'm glad I don't visit these official forums much. I think it's bizarre to put so much focus on G'raha appearing (allegedly) feminine, or not masculine enough, when even most of the claimed rugged characters in the game are fairly more pretty-boy than not.

Oh for the love of-I don't know how to explain this in simpler terms than this: G'raha Tia's desire/sexuality is irrelevant because it would be just as creepy regardless of whether I played a male or female character. We don't have an option to say no and to tell him to stop. Add that to his already strange appearance and you have something that simply isn't palatable.

And yeah, hereditary ruling classes and things like empires/kingdoms are kind of important pillars to most fantasy worlds? Garlemald and Ishgard were the most interesting concepts/locations that got me to stay on in this game back when it was just generic forest village+pirate land+generic desert land ruled by Lalafells? Now that the story has shifted away from those locations I need to find new places to get attached to.

At least the story is pivoting towards the void, it looks cool and is unlikely to be subject to the goodie goodie democratic government styles of the Source. For a blessing it seems that even Y'shtola is now actively pursuing a goal and her character finally has purpose again, justifying her continued presence on screen. G'raha Tia though? He is written as a sidekick who I want nothing more than to get rid of. He isn't my Exarch anymore, he's become insufferable.

Although I do feel the need to clarify this: I do not have anything against the voice actor for him, I *loved* his voice in Shadowbringers back when his character wasn't in the state that it was in now. It was fitting, soothing, and a joy to listen to. Now his voice doesn't match what his character has become, but that is absolutely in no way the fault of the actor. This is an issue whose root cause is in the writing and direction of the character, which is built around pandering to his fans and shoving him down everyone else's throats at every available opportunity.

It is roughly analogous to this: I do not blame a server at a restaurant for serving me a badly made dish when the mistake occurred in the kitchen under the direction of the chef.

So, what you're really saying is you didn't like that G'raha is now able to show the adoration he's had for the WoL since very early on in the Crystal Tower raids more openly as he doesn't have a lot of responsibilities or a heavy burden on his plate. The guy goes from being envious of us being at the fore of the van while traversing all of the Crystal Tower raids and admiring us somewhat from afar. To getting over the selfish want to not go to stasis (forever) for 200 years where in a now alternative time line gets woken up and asked if he wants to travel back in time to save the very same person he already admires who's deeds felt like they happened just yesterday. Only to hit the miss the mark by a hundred years (which is debatable if it was really an oppsie or not). Who then got thrust into a position of power in needing to keep a world from being just right for a rejoining so that when it'd be time to alter history and save the hero he admired it could happen.

The responsibilities and burdens didn't go away until after everyone got back to the source and then we get thrusted into dealing with well all of EW. He is also a mixture of two different versions of himself. Now he's free to do whatever and free to show his affection. Even if for some it feels like it's being shoved down one's throat. I feel we'd get the same kind of behavior from other npcs if they also felt they were allowed to show how they really feel about the WoL if they could be weighed down less by their own responsibilities and burdens. It's why I love running around with Nanamo when she's trying to be incognito. She still keeps in mind her duties to her people while also showing us how she is when not wearing the crown.

You can show admiration once or twice but to quote a phrase I cannot remember where I originally heard, "It's not gonna be the greatest story ever told if you're gonna tell it every 5 minutes." The more it's said, the less impact it has. Just like after how many nations turned into democracies in wake of Ishgard's reformation, in the Garlemald role quest felt like just it was repeating the same thing all over again.

In any case, G'raha Tia is "expressing his admiration" far too frequent to the point of parody, enough is enough. And yes, having responsibilities or goals for characters to work towards is important to justify the fact that they are taking up space on my screen. G'raha Tia has no goals at the moment, therefore, I would much rather see someone who is actually doing something. Or better yet, have characters who can argue and disagree with the player character.

When I played Dragon Age Origins, characters like Morrigan often questioned my decisions and so did Alistair depending on what kind of route I was going for. Here, everyone just nods and agrees on practically everything. You cannot tell a story worth listening to if the cast is going to be this ideologically homogenous. Estinien butting heads with Ysayle made for something interesting to watch, especially with how much both grew over their journeys. Now, all that has been replaced with an excessive wasted budget on animating G'raha Tia and a magical girl sequence for Y'shtola.

G'raha Tia's growth has remained stagnant throughout Endwalker, and destroyed his reputation from Shadowbringers.

Y'shtola's reputation was already in tatters in my eyes because of her constant fakeouts, and did not grow at all during Shadowbringers or Endwalker.

Thancred's arc ended in Shadowbringers and his character experienced no progression in Endwalker.

Urianger fulfilled a fun, whimsical role in Shadowbringers but in Endwalker he was reduced to being king of the moon rabbits and was tied into the worst round of MSQ filler quests since the trolley arc in Shb.

These characters, bar Y'shtola, no longer have a goal to pursue. With no focus left to give them, get them off my screen and bring in new cast members with all haste. I had hoped that this patch would have introduced at least 1 new main party member, but it seems even that couldn't be managed.

The only thing remotely indicative of that could be Varshahn, but I do not know if he will fill the role of a fighting party member given his humanoid form is that of a child. I'm not opposed to him joining the party at all-but at least give him a battle job if he must tag along.

I mean, this was NEVER going to be Dragon Age. In that game, Zevran, Alistair, and Morrigan all can and will leave your party if you make certain choices. Western RPGs are built with the goal of the player creating their own custom avatar that veers down unique story branches. JRPGs, except for VERY rare exceptions, are not. And certainly not within the Final Fantasy franchise. Doesn't matter if you like Sorceress Ultimecia or feel sympathy for Ardyn, or just wanna go full Chaotic Evil and help Kefka. You will only ever help the players destroy them. No matter how much you treat Aeris or Tifa like crap in the early game, both of them are still viable love interests until one of them dies and the game ends. No matter what choices you make, people aren't going to stop treating Noctis as the prince.

Gonna have to also disagree on the matter of G'raha Tia's (or any other character's) "growth". As I've mentioned elsewhere, Endwalker is narratively equivalent to the last "disc" of a traditional FF story. All of the character growth and development already happened between 1.0 - 5.0.. In "Hero's Jouney" terms, the character arcs are now entering the "Return" phase, where the heroes return to their roots to show how their particular arcs have changed them and will help the places they come from. That's literally what happens when the Scions return to Sharlayan (especially the twins confronting their father), when Estinien helps a dragon meet his destiny, and when Urianger refuses to lie to his friends again and finally mourns his closest friend alongside her parents.

I will agree that, if the Scions are going to continue to be the focal characters, they will need new arcs and growth going forward. But Endwalker serving as a final culmination of their original arcs works well enough.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You can show admiration once or twice but to quote a phrase I cannot remember where I originally heard, "It's not gonna be the greatest story ever told if you're gonna tell it every 5 minutes." The more it's said, the less impact it has. Just like after how many nations turned into democracies in wake of Ishgard's reformation, in the Garlemald role quest felt like just it was repeating the same thing all over again.

In any case, G'raha Tia is "expressing his admiration" far too frequent to the point of parody, enough is enough. And yes, having responsibilities or goals for characters to work towards is important to justify the fact that they are taking up space on my screen. G'raha Tia has no goals at the moment, therefore, I would much rather see someone who is actually doing something. Or better yet, have characters who can argue and disagree with the player character.

When I played Dragon Age Origins, characters like Morrigan often questioned my decisions and so did Alistair depending on what kind of route I was going for. Here, everyone just nods and agrees on practically everything. You cannot tell a story worth listening to if the cast is going to be this ideologically homogenous. Estinien butting heads with Ysayle made for something interesting to watch, especially with how much both grew over their journeys. Now, all that has been replaced with an excessive wasted budget on animating G'raha Tia and a magical girl sequence for Y'shtola.

G'raha Tia's growth has remained stagnant throughout Endwalker, and destroyed his reputation from Shadowbringers.

Y'shtola's reputation was already in tatters in my eyes because of her constant fakeouts, and did not grow at all during Shadowbringers or Endwalker.

Thancred's arc ended in Shadowbringers and his character experienced no progression in Endwalker.

Urianger fulfilled a fun, whimsical role in Shadowbringers but in Endwalker he was reduced to being king of the moon rabbits and was tied into the worst round of MSQ filler quests since the trolley arc in Shb.

These characters, bar Y'shtola, no longer have a goal to pursue. With no focus left to give them, get them off my screen and bring in new cast members with all haste. I had hoped that this patch would have introduced at least 1 new main party member, but it seems even that couldn't be managed.

The only thing remotely indicative of that could be Varshahn, but I do not know if he will fill the role of a fighting party member given his humanoid form is that of a child. I'm not opposed to him joining the party at all-but at least give him a battle job if he must tag along.

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Yeah they no longer have goals...that tells me you skipped cutscenes and don't know shizz. That's all I needed to read to know for sure that you're a clown

Given how little substance any cutscenes involving G'raha Tia or Krile are, can you blame me if I choose to do so? Their nebulous task of "rebuilding the Students" means nothing to me. Goodness knows I have no interest in becoming a "student of Baldesion," that's the only possible way to downgrade from being a scion at this point, and would give this writing style a full go ahead to make the April Fool's FFXIV school manga a reality in game.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Given how little substance any cutscenes involving G'raha Tia or Krile are, can you blame me if I choose to do so? Their nebulous task of "rebuilding the Students" means nothing to me. Goodness knows I have no interest in becoming a "student of Baldesion," that's the only possible way to downgrade from being a scion at this point, and would give this writing style a full go ahead to make the April Fool's FFXIV school manga a reality in game.

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THERE IT IS FOLKS PLAIN AS COULD BE. It's that the Scions don't have goals, it's the fact this guy doesn't deem them worthy enough.

So I take it the goals have to do with you the WoL to be acceptable to you...yet you crap on Graha for being close. You're one of those people that can never be pleased, I see that now

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

THERE IT IS FOLKS PLAIN AS COULD BE. It's that the Scions don't have goals, it's the fact this guy doesn't deem them worthy enough.

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Yeah, rebuilding a university club doesn't interest me. I bought a Final Fantasy game not a Persona game. I want to go on an adventure with people who aren't all scholars from Sharlayan. The cast as it is now is too ideologically similar and bar Y'shtola now actively pursuing the void, there is nothing the rest of them are doing that is remotely interesting.

I would rather "Join the expedition to the Void with a band of warriors" or "Fight the Dragonsong War" than,
"Help rebuild the Students of Baldesion." Two of these are decent enough premises for a Final Fantasy game, the other is something that could be mistaken for a visual novel.

I'm not particularly difficult to please either. Have characters that come from different places and that can disagree with each other. That isn't asking much. Have characters with goals we actively see them pursuing in order to justify their continued presence. Do not overload serious characters with excessive meme moments and let the player decide who they want to be "admired" by instead of forcing it onto them.

What is controversial about any of these basic requests?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

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The mild-queerphobia that I quote is more about the part that you find his appearance strange and off-putting by default, rather than about how you react to his hero worship.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that an hereditary ruling class and empire/kingdoms being absolute for fantasy, especially Final Fantasy. You often talk about medieval-ish fantasy as a monolith but ignore that you're talking about western medieval fantasy (mostly French/Spanish/British in origin). Further still, most locations in Final Fantasy XIV are not "goodie goodie democratic [governments]" as you claim is the norm. Even among the starting cities you find boring... aren't that. There's the pirate-like thalassocracy of Limsa Lominsa, the oligarchic theocracy of Gridania, the puppet hereditary monarchy and its monetarist rulers of Ul'dah. And outside of that, only in Eorzea mind, you have the nomadic tribes of Paglth'an who hold council often in times of war, the matriarchal hereditary ruling class of the four chieftains of Xelphatol, the theocracy and structured caste system of O'Ghomoro, the non-hereditary monarchy of the Indigo Deep sahagin, the... autonomous collectives of the twelveswood sylphs and moogles, the "free nation" of Idyllshire, the hereditary monarchic clans of Ok'Gundu, Ok'Zundu and Ok'Vundu, the hivemind of Loth ast Gnath and the guild collective of Loth ast Vath and indeed, the representative democracy of Ishgard and the loose republic of Ala Mhigo.

Outside of that, besides the Garlean provinces we have no knowledge of, Garlemald and the Garlean Empire itself had a senate despite being a hereditary monarchic empire, Doma is and was a hereditary monarchy, Hinganshi is an isolationist shogunate, Dalmasca has hopes of regaining it's kingdom status, Bozja and its supposed meritocracy, Radz-at-Han and its sham hereditary monarchy, really an autocratic satrapy with no hereditary component, and whatever the heck Werlyt is.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

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... The Students of Baldesion is a research institution named after its founder, Galuf Baldesion, not an actual student body. It's more akin to an independent research group that owned land and conducted experiments and such. Their thing was that they were studying the Echo and other aetheric matters. It's not a "university club"... It's why they take requests for surveys and such.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

snip.

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I'm not going to bother responding to the first part of your post because it is little more than an attempt to paint me as something that I am not, moving on.

The pirates of pirate land aren't allowed to do pirate things anymore, the forest nuns in Gridania are boring and literally don't do anything, and Ul'dah was intriguing until it simply wasn't. Are you seriously bringing up Paglth'an, a dungeon we will never visit again? It's going to take a lot more than that to keep my interest. The beast tribes have nothing left of value now that they no longer do the beast tribe thing of summoning primals every now and then.

Dalmasca's plot was finished on a note, the writers don't seem to want to do anything in the far east for the time being, and at present I only tolerate Radz-at-Han/Thavnair because of Vrtra. I cannot wait to bounce off the Source where nothing is happening and every nation just stoically nods and agrees with each other, much like our currently bland cast.

Thank you for the lore exposition on the Students of Baldesion but I'm not interested in being a researcher, I'm interested in fighting things and exploring. Adventurer, Warrior of Light, even Scion as much as I despise being associated with them are all leagues better than being called "the Student." Goodness. They can go play with their aether devices without my involvement.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

THERE IT IS FOLKS PLAIN AS COULD BE. It's that the Scions don't have goals, it's the fact this guy doesn't deem them worthy enough.

So I take it the goals have to do with you the WoL to be acceptable to you...yet you crap on Graha for being close. You're one of those people that can never be pleased, I see that now

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Someone got salty .... I don't like Graha Tia too and what now? He is like Zenos 2.0 if not even worse, cause he is not the foe and we have to do Stuff with him.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Someone got salty .... I don't like Graha Tia too and what now? He is like Zenos 2.0 if not even worse, cause he is not the foe and we have to do Stuff with him.

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Not salty at all. That adjective would probably fit you better as it seems a nerve was struck prompting you to say this.

"Anything that doesn't interest me personally is objectively terrible." /thread

I'm not gonna pretend the story is some flawless masterpiece, but when your objections all boil down to just not liking it, and you reply aggressively to every attempt to discuss anything, you only hurt your own side.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Not salty at all. That adjective would probably fit you better as it seems a nerve was struck prompting you to say this.

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That's why you wrote all in extra big? hmm...

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

That's why you wrote all in extra big? hmm...

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It's called emphasis. The point was to mimic an announcer xD Youre for getting the wrong read from that

Aveyond's wording has maybe been a bit clumsy, but I have to agree with (what I think is) his core point. There is no option to get G'raha to tone it down a notch, and for people who just aren't that into the character the hero worship does nothing to endear him to them.

It has been some time since the end of Shadowbringers and everyone returning to the Source, enough time to do all of Endwalker together, I sort of got it at first but he really should have chilled out a bit by now.