The Mug change, predictably, feels like garbage.

Not gonna get into the details, it’s just bad. Guess I’m looking for another main to get shot with bad QoL in 6.2. How's Dragoon?

The real big brain play is to not play the game for a year, wait for the devs to make every Job unfun as humanly possible, and see what's left in the wreckage. Probably black mage. Nins and Sam's were just the first to suffer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

The real big brain play is to not play the game for a year, wait for the devs to make every Job unfun as humanly possible, and see what's left in the wreckage. Probably black mage. Nins and Sam's were just the first to suffer

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Ha, Green DPS was shot first.

It’s getting to that point where my static goes back to triple caster double BLM plus whatever melee and muscles through. LB generation be damned.

On the one hand, it isn’t Gordias anymore, on the other hand, it isn’t Gordias anymore.

I'd have to agree. The Ninki gain and party buff being placed on Mug makes it feel very stiff and inflexible. Not only that, but it's just... boring. No cool animation, name, or sound effect. It's just Mug. I guess when you get mugged, it's easier for people to beat the tar out of you for a bit?


Or not. I don't really see the logic...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

I'd have to agree. The Ninki gain and party buff being placed on Mug makes it feel very stiff and inflexible. Not only that, but it's just... boring. No cool animation, name, or sound effect. It's just Mug. I guess when you get mugged, it's easier for people to beat the tar out of you for a bit?


Or not. I don't really see the logic...

---

This is how I felt when Ishikoten was made our Ogi buff. Feels bad it's on a long cool down for 50 kenki. Just bleh to me. Always hated that change :/ I feel you regarding Mug.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

The real big brain play is to not play the game for a year, wait for the devs to make every Job unfun as humanly possible, and see what's left in the wreckage. Probably black mage. Nins and Sam's were just the first to suffer

---

Nin and Sam first?

*looks at ShB Healers and Tanks* you hear that boys we didn't get nerfed and made into carbon copies of each other 3+ years ago!

Sorry for the snark lol just this really brings to mind the whole DPS don't care about the nerfs and copy n pasting of classes until it happens to them that was going around since ShB.

True, my apologies. They haven't made all the dps have just one dps button and one dot ... yet. Maybe since we're dps we will get two dots! yay!

Actually on second thought, the devs removed ninja's shadowfang, so we'll be lucky to even get one dot. Think the devs would prefer if nin just had one attack button and one 2 minute buff. In the form of mug of course.

Back on topic, I agree with the assertion that needing Suiton + ninki below 60 to activate both trick and mug without any dps loss feels quite awkward. While this can be claimed to be complexity, and I guess it technically is, it feels incredibly jank. I don't mind putting in work to get a raid buff, like in astro's divination in shb, but that system in my opinion flowed much better. The complexity, which I'm sure is accidental because it's the ninja devs, is appreciated, but it needs to flow a lot more better to make it worth the hassle. Shb divination was a 6% buff, so the work felt like it was worth it since it was one of the strongest buffs in the game. Ninja puts in work just to get shitty brotherhood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

snip

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I'd have to agree. The amount of build-up and considerations needed to be taken into account to enter burst -- not even to prepare for burst, to enter it -- is immense. I was fine with this in the form of Suiton -> Trick, as Trick was very powerful and it set a nice rhythm. Now, it just feels like a complicated puzzle that can only be solved in one way. Complicated yet boring.

It's shocking to me how one small change can have such an impact on how it feels to play the class. In odd windows, it feels pretty alright, but even minute windows.... mm, it doesn't feel good, and not just because I spent the past two months learning to deliberately drift Mug into Trick for more DPS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Nins and Sam's were just the first to suffer

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Summoner, Machinest, Bards and Monks would say otherwise. If anything yall are the second to last batch. Dragoon was announced next, and AST will get it's second round. Dancer, Reaper, Black Mage and Red Mage haven't been hit yet, but Dancer and Reaper aren't exactly fun or engaging either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Summoner, Machinest, Bards and Monks would say otherwise. If anything yall are the second to last batch. Dragoon was announced next, and AST will get it's second round. Dancer, Reaper, Black Mage and Red Mage haven't been hit yet, but Dancer and Reaper aren't exactly fun or engaging either.

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I’m not a monk but wasn’t their rework fairly well received?

Your comments about dancer and reaper are opinions. They’re both really well received by the community.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I’m not a monk but wasn’t their rework fairly well received?

Your comments about dancer and reaper are opinions. They’re both really well received by the community.

---

No monk rework was not fairly well received.
No these are not opinions, dancer and reaper are not very engaging, fun how every can be subjective. Reaper was well received because of its look, the fact its the closest you will get to dps dark knight, and because it read more complicated than it played. When was dancer well received for anything other than is job armor? There were PFs that were not even letting them join.

Whether they were well-received or not, is in my opinion, not relevant. Old monk, for how jank it felt, was the positional job. Old summoners, for how jank it also felt, was the pet job. Old bard was also the dot job. All three of those jobs can not be said to fulfill those niches anymore. The changes to these three choices reduced the amount of gameplay variety in the game, and I think we can all agree that is not a good thing. Personally, I hate positionals, all the bosses in this game spin like a beyblade. But if someone wants to torture themselves with positionals, more power to them. The game needs to allow more gameplay choices via the picking and choosing of jobs. If the job system doesn't allow that, what is the point of a job system?

Now ninja no longer fulfills the niche of the one minute buff job. Im not sure why the devs feel the need in ew to remove all the niches that jobs occupied, but they are doing so. But if your job has a niche? Enjoy it while it lasts. Ninjas just seems to be part of a recent dps role trend of removing variety.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

The real big brain play is to not play the game for a year, wait for the devs to make every Job unfun as humanly possible, and see what's left in the wreckage. Probably black mage. Nins and Sam's were just the first to suffer

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I fail to see how BLM has suffered from anything new within the last two years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EhvaTaco

I fail to see how BLM has suffered from anything new within the last two years.

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Black Mage will never suffer cause Yoshi P actually tests it, and would never finalize the changes if it sucks. But everything Yoshi P does not test or play is up for what ever.

I can only imagine how fans of the old Monk felt left behind with the rework. I never picked up the job (I was planning to until the rework), but I did really love the idea of a job focusing around positionals, jank as boss positioning might be in 14.

By the same token, I loved the one-minute cycles of Ninja. Buff, Burst, Prepare, Repeat. You can make the argument that it's the same now, but a Mug window and a Trick window are both semantically and categorically different. Thinking about it, all the Trick change did was take a job which already played well into raid buffs and make it play into them even harder. A 10% personal damage up for a job which already dealt 40%+ of its damage into a 15s-20s window... yeesh.



I do recall reading about how some Ninjas wished there was something else to do in-between Trick windows...
It was a sentiment I only loosely understood, as by the time I really had a grasp on the 5.x Ninja, it was 6.0. It never sat quite right with me, because in my opinion any new or powerful tool you'd want to use immediately within Trick, or prepare it immediately beforehand. Mug is used in exactly the same way. The interim of Ninja has not become more interesting, and somehow the burst windows of Ninjas have become less interesting...


I'd pay double my subscription for them to revert the changes, frankly. Or I'd buy out a bunch of stuff from the Online Store. Now, it sucks, but it's the strongest thing out there so people will want to play it.


My worry is that enough people will pick it up based on its strength in Asphodelos that Square Enix will see the changes and think they're well-received.

I guess I can make a macro that immediately applies mug after trick attack. That might be the solution for me, because I hate the way it plays now.

Devs please listen, I am trying to engineer your changes out of the game. I'm willing to take a potential dps loss to do it. They are not fun.

[Edit: Yep! That feels way better! Here is the macro, Just tap the button a few times when you do the combo and it should go off without any buffering issues.]

/micon "trick attack"
/merror off
/ac "trick attack"
/ac "mug"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

I'd have to agree. The Ninki gain and party buff being placed on Mug makes it feel very stiff and inflexible. Not only that, but it's just... boring. No cool animation, name, or sound effect. It's just Mug. I guess when you get mugged, it's easier for people to beat the tar out of you for a bit?


Or not. I don't really see the logic...

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I guess mug would deal some emotional dmg to the boss, make the boss depressed hence we can hurt him more. I think

True. Mug not only does emotional damage to the boss, but me as well lmao. Maybe that's what makes mug unique compared to other raid buffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Summoner, Machinest, Bards and Monks would say otherwise. If anything yall are the second to last batch. Dragoon was announced next, and AST will get it's second round. Dancer, Reaper, Black Mage and Red Mage haven't been hit yet, but Dancer and Reaper aren't exactly fun or engaging either.

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Speak for yourself on Dancer and Reaper, I have a lot of fun with them and everything with them feels fluid. You may be the only player I've met who doesn't like either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Speak for yourself on Dancer and Reaper, I have a lot of fun with them and everything with them feels fluid. You may be the only player I've met who doesn't like either.

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Of the three ranged Dancer is the least interesting to me. It’s too simple and RNG reliant. Reaper I’m refusing to try because I have one in my static and if people’s complaints about it are right then I wouldn’t enjoy it either, for very similar reasons I don’t enjoy Dancer and Summoner.

Mug instantly deals critical magic damage to most pre-6.1 Ninja players...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Nin and Sam first?

*looks at ShB Healers and Tanks* you hear that boys we didn't get nerfed and made into carbon copies of each other 3+ years ago!

Sorry for the snark lol just this really brings to mind the whole DPS don't care about the nerfs and copy n pasting of classes until it happens to them that was going around since ShB.

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Yeah I agree, tanks and healers got this treatment in ShB but we were too busy worried about "balance" and making them accessible at their own demise. I knew sooner or later they would take this mentality into balancing DPS.

I mean we should've known it was coming whenever they relegated phys ranged into nerfed dps that baits stuff sometimes and something you're obligated to bring because of the bonus.

But tbh, a lot of the game's issues stem from the fact that they took away so much battle designs that these non-selfish dps jobs/supports relied on.

NIN for enmity control? Gone.

Ranged for Refresh (MP regen) and OG Tactican for AoE enmity control? Gone.

Auto attack dmg reduction (Palisade)? Gone.

Tanks juggling enmity and dps? Gone.

Weapon resistance debuffs (Slashing, Blunt, Piercing, etc)? Gone.

While some of these things have changed for the better, it still remains that nothing was given in return for these jobs to keep their niche.

Thus the battle of the better rDPS will continue because that's the only thing that matters anymore.

I DON'T SEE THE MUG ICON AT ALL.

BUT I STILL SEE THE TRICK ATTACK ICON EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Maybe swap the icons, since 99% of the player base looks for the Trick Attack icon to throw their stuff at the boss?

The mug effect on the boss is just the vulnerability up icon.

I'm pretty sure that's what it looked like for trick attack before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AoifeAogane

The mug effect on the boss is just the vulnerability up icon.

I'm pretty sure that's what it looked like for trick attack before.

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This is correct. That said, if we keep any change from this iteration of Ninja, I'd really love to keep the Trick Icon being what it is. It's just a tad more flavourful than the generic vuln-up.

Absolutely. But I assume they made the mug vuln icon the same for people who are used to looking for it.

Of course SE needed to stack more of the NIN party buff in the 2m window, as other classes aren't built to take advantage of every trick attack. It's still as much of a 1m cycling rotation as it used to be (TCJ lol), it just works better with the rest of the party, as enough 2m classes aren't bursting on odd minutes (or at least, don't usually need to). If you're arguing for a 1m rotation as class identity, you still have it, you still need to play around trick attacks and burst in them. If you're arguing mug isn't thematic or it's clunky, Meisui already made gauge management clunky and awkward and forced you to dump early to optimize etc, so it is just more of the same. Maybe the skill name needs to be changed, but I don't think "trick attack" conveys "I will make you vulnerable" either, lol.
The biggest issue I can see with the changes is that NIN gets a lot less of its party damage from buffing, now, less even than DRG from what I can tell. This, in my opinion, hits its class identity as the "supportive melee" like it has historically been. SAM (even with their gracious love and acceptance of their changes, lol) still maintains its identity as the "selfish" melee, that does a lot of damage without supporting the party, but the NIN changes are as if they balanced the new SAM around a better party buff than RPR has.

Plenty of other classes were able to take good advantage of Trick Attack, though? Not every class needs to be able to, though more do now than ever. Monk has Riddle of Fire on the same timer, Gunbreaker has 1-minute burst, Reaper and Samurai are able to pool and spend resources, Dark Knight can do the same, Dancer can drop a Standard Step inside it, Warrior lines up now with the 6.0 changes, and even WHM is able to get a Misery going once a minute after the 6.1 changes. I'm not familiar with every class, but I doubt this is an exhaustive list. Why should we remove a buff that brought so much to so many classes because a small portion weren't able to fully take advantage of it? Should we remove Dancer's Dance Partner because Samurai and Warrior don't benefit as much from increased crit rates?

I've not personally had problems with Meisui, but other have expressed it's boring or clunky in other threads about NIN. Rather than settle for "well, Meisui is also clunky, so who cares if Mug makes it worse" when you could say "both Meisui and Mug make NIN feel clunky, and should be changed"? I'm a fan of Meisui just being an oGCD that consumes Suiton and deals damage. Gives NIN some more oGCD space in burst.

I'd have to agree to disagree with you about what Trick conveys/implies, however.

You're spot on about the shift in party damage vs personal damage, though. I and likely a good few other players picked up Ninja because it was the "support melee". It really feels like these changes have eroded the very last bit of unique utility Ninja had.

Personally, I don't care if Mug "works better" in the context of raiding or general party play. 6.1 NIN feels way too similar to MNK, and that's not a positive thing to say considering Monk doesn't even have an identity for itself. Ninjutsu and Blitz are too similar, both jobs have problems of having nothing to do or manage in downtime, both have an unremarkable job gauge that is primarily spent on one oGCD that has overcap problems, etc. I do not see the point of the TA/Mug change when they could've just buffed its potencies.

Why even bother having 60s cooldowns anymore at this point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I’m not a monk but wasn’t their rework fairly well received?

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Primarily by people that did not play the job. If what you wanted out of MNK is a standardized job that has relatively little jank, then EW MNK succeeded in that endeavour. However, that came at the cost of basically everything else that was unique to it, whether it be Greased Lightning or heavy positional gameplay. What it gained did not make up for what was lost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

The real big brain play is to not play the game for a year, wait for the devs to make every Job unfun as humanly possible, and see what's left in the wreckage. Probably black mage. Nins and Sam's were just the first to suffer

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In expansions past it was BRD, AST, SCH, DRK
and EW it was SMN, SAM, NIN, MCH (lack of change). To be honest it would be easier to just list all jobs they haven’t “yet” screwed up for accessibility sake

PLD, BLM, DRG, RDM, DNC, GNB, and RPR and SGE being too new to ruin yet that’s 8/19 almost half the roster is in dire need of attention and I can almost be certain they’ll end up screwing over these 8…or 7 as we all know BLM is in constant state of intensive care. WTF is going on with the job design team?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jirah

In expansions past it was BRD, AST, SCH, DRK
and EW it was SMN, SAM, NIN, MCH (lack of change). To be honest it would be easier to just list all jobs they haven’t “yet” screwed up for accessibility sake

PLD, BLM, DRG, RDM, DNC, GNB, and RPR and SGE being too new to ruin yet that’s 8/19 almost half the roster is in dire need of attention and I can almost be certain they’ll end up screwing over these 8…or 7 as we all know BLM is in constant state of intensive care. WTF is going on with the job design team?

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Honestly, I started playing this game because I was told the devs actually care and listen to feedback. This patch has been a rude awakening to me that it doesn't seem to be the case. I should have been worried when bard stopped being a dot job, but I didn't think too much of it at the time.

Its been said before, but trick change is bizarre. One minute buffs line up with 2 minute buffs 4head, this change does Jackshit other than remove ninja's usp and part of its appeal. Devs, please learn to count.

With ishgard housing showing the devs fumbling with numbers again, the recent changes seems to show that the dev team really need to go back to kindergarten and redo basic maths.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Personally, I don't care if Mug "works better" in the context of raiding or general party play. 6.1 NIN feels way too similar to MNK, and that's not a positive thing to say considering Monk doesn't even have an identity for itself. Ninjutsu and Blitz are too similar, both jobs have problems of having nothing to do or manage in downtime, both have an unremarkable job gauge that is primarily spent on one oGCD that has overcap problems, etc. I do not see the point of the TA/Mug change when they could've just buffed its potencies.

Why even bother having 60s cooldowns anymore at this point?



Primarily by people that did not play the job. If what you wanted out of MNK is a standardized job that has relatively little jank, then EW MNK succeeded in that endeavour. However, that came at the cost of basically everything else that was unique to it, whether it be Greased Lightning or heavy positional gameplay. What it gained did not make up for what was lost.

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Completely agree. I was going to pick up Monk as an alt job pre-Endwalker; when I saw the changes, I thought they were neat, but it didn't really fulfil the 'Monk gameplay fantasy' I had in mind.


Back to Trick and Mug, I also hate the idea of managing two personal buffs and a party buff. Both Reaper and Monk only have the worry about the one personal damage buff. It is hard to manage the buffs? Not exactly, no, but it is more rigid and makes the NIN rotation even more scripted than it was before. Now we have to maintain Huton, and we have a party buff and personal buff on strict timers. Ninja has become more rigid and more similar to Monk, and I just can't stand it.

It wasn't broken before, so I see no reason to ""fix"" it. I've said it once before, but if the problem Square Enix was trying to fix was Ninja's low personal damage (for some ungodly reason), we could have always made like a Dragoon and given the party +3% damage up and the Ninja +5%. Would that suck a bit? Yes. It is infinitely more palatable to me than the current changes? Also yes.


I just don't buy any of the proposed reasons why these changes needed to be made. 'Synergy' falls apart when you realise how much synergy with other jobs's one-minute brust windows was lost. 'Balancing' goes out the window when they took the strongest melee DPS in the game and buffed it more.



If there is a legitimate reason for these changes, I would like to hear it. Right now, however, I am really struggling to see the logic. It feels very frustrating when these changes have seemingly been made at random, and for no good reason.

Nobody asked for them, and from what I've seen scouring the English and JP forums, very, very few people legitimately enjoy them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I’m not a monk but wasn’t their rework fairly well received?

Your comments about dancer and reaper are opinions. They’re both really well received by the community.

---

Monk change was VERY controversial, mostly long-time monk mains were upset about it while the people who praised it were mostly people who didn't really have much of any experience with the job. So definitely a mixed bag. I've gotten used to it, and I don't hate it as much as I did to start since it makes a lot of the mechanics they introduced into savage easier, but I'm still not convinced this is the best they could have done.

As for ninja, though, which was the main topic. I agree. Mug just doesn't feel impactful enough for the big skill that raises the party's damage, especially when I think of it compared to skills like brotherhood and arcane circle that have bigger animations with better sounds to accompany them. If the developers are intent on keeping ninja's damage buff at 120 seconds, I wonder if they start you with mug as a rogue, and later it gets upgraded to assassinate at some point leveling up ninja? Though they'd have to dramatically reduce the animation lock for that to work out well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Monk change was VERY controversial, mostly long-time monk mains were upset about it while the people who praised it were mostly people who didn't really have much of any experience with the job. So definitely a mixed bag. I've gotten used to it, and I don't hate it as much as I did to start since it makes a lot of the mechanics they introduced into savage easier, but I'm still not convinced this is the best they could have done.

As for ninja, though, which was the main topic. I agree. Mug just doesn't feel impactful enough for the big skill that raises the party's damage, especially when I think of it compared to skills like brotherhood and arcane circle that have bigger animations with better sounds to accompany them. If the developers are intent on keeping ninja's damage buff at 120 seconds, I wonder if they start you with mug as a rogue, and later it gets upgraded to assassinate at some point leveling up ninja? Though they'd have to dramatically reduce the animation lock for that to work out well.

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Honestly, they should just remove positionals entirely at this point with how often they force us into ignoring flanks and rears, such as the 2nd boss of The Dead Ends where it forces you to circle around it constantly. True North doesn't last long enough to cover these situations.

Mug should have been the Personal Damage boost (it already has a lot of personal effects). Trick has a cooler Animation, which is the only reason I'm kinda half and half on this as someone leveling NIN.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wereotter

As for ninja, though, which was the main topic. I agree. Mug just doesn't feel impactful enough for the big skill that raises the party's damage, especially when I think of it compared to skills like brotherhood and arcane circle that have bigger animations with better sounds to accompany them. If the developers are intent on keeping ninja's damage buff at 120 seconds, I wonder if they start you with mug as a rogue, and later it gets upgraded to assassinate at some point leveling up ninja? Though they'd have to dramatically reduce the animation lock for that to work out well.

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I agree with you that Assassinate/Dream within a Dream is pretty boring as it is (cool animations aside!), and that Mug is not a very satisfying party buff button. I really don't understand what was wrong with keeping it on Trick Attack, the iconic party buff of the Ninja class since the very day it was introduced. I just... why not just keep it there... it has historical precedent, a great animation, and most importantly nobody was unhappy with it!


I think the idea of upgrading Mug into a more Ninja-like skill is a great idea too. I don't think it needs to become Assassinate or have a party buff attached, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RArchet

Honestly, they should just remove positionals entirely at this point with how often they force us into ignoring flanks and rears, such as the 2nd boss of The Dead Ends where it forces you to circle around it constantly. True North doesn't last long enough to cover these situations.

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I don’t feel Positionals need to go away at all personally. But they do need better implementation if certain jobs are supposed to have a lot of them. I prefer Samurai’s softer approach where you can flex your basic Sen combos around how you will position in the next 25ish seconds or so to more static options like Dragoon, but I don’t think either is ‘Bad’, but the focus is misapplied. Heavier Positional jobs like pre-Endwalker Monk need to be designed in such a way that they are inherently more flexible by default to compensate for problems with their demand. This is why I’ve wanted positional based chakra generation for so long. With a tightly controlled gauge it would fit better with XIV’s fights overall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

I agree with you that Assassinate/Dream within a Dream is pretty boring as it is (cool animations aside!), and that Mug is not a very satisfying party buff button. I really don't understand what was wrong with keeping it on Trick Attack, the iconic party buff of the Ninja class since the very day it was introduced. I just... why not just keep it there... it has historical precedent, a great animation, and most importantly nobody was unhappy with it!


I think the idea of upgrading Mug into a more Ninja-like skill is a great idea too. I don't think it needs to become Assassinate or have a party buff attached, though.

---

Coming from what seems to be the developer's visions for party buffs, Trick Attack had to change. They seem to be in the mindset currently that personal buffs and bursts happen every 60 seconds, even if that burst is rather small, and party-wide buffs go out every 120. With trick being a party wide every 60, changing it to just a personal damage buff is a very sensible solution. But what comes is that mug just doesn't feel like it has the impact that trick does when you use it. It's got a goofy sound effect and very subtle animation, and unlike ninja's trick, requires zero setup to use

Honestly I'd forgotten that Assassinate upgrades to Dream because I never play low level ninja, but I do think there are better solutions than just using mug. Another thought might be having Ten Chi Jin apply a personal buff that upgrades your next trick attack to what we had before, increasing party damage. Sure that would delay ninja's party support, but not so far as to cut off much that's really important these days, and gives it to ninja at the same level monk gets its similar move, brotherhood.

All that being said, I do think that they couldn't do much more major since they tend to avoid massive job overhauls in odd numbered patches so that people don't have to entirely relearn their job potentially mid way through a savage tier or right before ultimate comes out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I don’t feel Positionals need to go away at all personally. But they do need better implementation if certain jobs are supposed to have a lot of them. I prefer Samurai’s softer approach where you can flex your basic Sen combos around how you will position in the next 25ish seconds or so to more static options like Dragoon, but I don’t think either is ‘Bad’, but the focus is misapplied. Heavier Positional jobs like pre-Endwalker Monk need to be designed in such a way that they are inherently more flexible by default to compensate for problems with their demand. This is why I’ve wanted positional based chakra generation for so long. With a tightly controlled gauge it would fit better with XIV’s fights overall.

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I agree. I think that overall positionals are more of a positive than a negative for the game. I just think that there are some fights where I don't feel like the developers think through entirely how melee damage will be impacted. P3S has a phase starting at Firestorms of Asphedelos through Death's Toll where, for the most part, where you stand is dictated by the raid mechanics. The phase lasts for nearly 2 minutes, during which time you'll get 40 seconds of true north. So thinking of ways around that so melee jobs aren't punished because of how the fight is designed would be nice. Both myself and my co-melee partner have brought up to the raid group how we can't get enough true north to do our jobs effectively there, and he's just a reaper, he can theoretically hold off his positional moves. I'm a monk, I don't have that luxury.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wereotter

snip

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They do seem to be in taht mind, I am firmly against it. I don't think Ninja needed a personal buff in the first place -- it was already doing plenty well balance-wise this tier as it stood. Having a manage a personal buff on top of the party buff just makes the class feel clunky in my opinion. I would sincerely feel better about the changes if they made Trick a two-minute party buff and removed the personal buff from Mug.

That said, again, the class did not need such a change in the first place. If the developers want to make classes focus around two minutes, that's fine. However, when it comes to the point of changing the usage of an iconic ability of a class, I think it goes a little too far. Ninja is not Ninja without a one-minute Trick Attack party buff. As many people have said time and time again, one minute fits neatly into two minutes. If the problem is balance, there are other solutions that do not come at the cost of class identity.

What I struggle with is that so many people seem to want to compromise on the personal buff. Am I abnormal in thinking that it feels quite awful to play around? There's a reason I avoid classes like Monk or Dancer -- having to put up a personal buff and a party buff feels quite wretched to me. I'd much rather potencies be adjusted to account for the damage increase the personal buff gives. I don't think receiving a personal damage buff makes gameplay more exciting. Buffing the party, however, and lining up my big damage abilities -- that feels meaningful.

I just don't want Ninja to lose what made it enjoyable for me to play in the first place -- the fact that it wasn't like anything else. If they keep these changes, there's really nothing else I can move to.

It makes so much more sense in my mind to keep Ninja as it is, and adjust the potency on Trick Attack if it's so problematic. The developers could always approach it like Dragoon's Dragon Sight and have it buff the Ninja's damage by more than the party member's.

Frankly, I'm glad they couldn't do anything more major. The only 'major' change I want to see in Ninja right now is them reverting the changes to Trick and Mug.

The only problems 6.08 Ninja had were a few unspired oGCDs (Mug, Meisui, Dream within a Dream) and poor Ninki generation. I don't think Ninja needs an overhaul to fix these problems -- nor were they more pressing than other job issues.

Mug feels 10x better than High Jump transforming into Mirage Dive so you accidentally double weave it and mess your entire rotation up. Honestly that and WM -> Pitch Perfect Changes were the worst changes that weren't SAM this patch. I hope with all my heart they revert those changes.

also predictably. Ninja is #1 ranked DPS, so what about Mug feels bad now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeneralDil

Mug feels 10x better than High Jump transforming into Mirage Dive so you accidentally double weave it and mess your entire rotation up. Honestly that and WM -> Pitch Perfect Changes were the worst changes that weren't SAM this patch. I hope with all my heart they revert those changes.

also predictably. Ninja is #1 ranked DPS, so what about Mug feels bad now?

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Nobody is arguing that Ninja isn't strong. Frankly, it's too strong, but this was already the case even before 6.1.

The problem is that Mug is a bloated ability with two effects that in an ideal world you want to activate at different times. Having +40 Ninki on your party buff means you can't build up to 100 gauge for burst, which feels absolutely awful.

That, and it's on a two minute cooldown, whereas our previous party buff, Trick Attack, was on a one-minute cooldown. We've been saddled with an additional buff we need to pop on a strict timing, which makes the class feel more stiff and rigid as a result. In terms of raw numbers, Ninja got stronger, but in terms of play feel, it got much worse.