Removing Kaiten: Who Asked?

Literally who? Who asked for this in either the NA or JP communities? Name a single person, a single basis for justifying the removal of such an iconic ability.

The answer is "no one." No one asked for this. People, at various points in time, had mentioned something to the effect of "hey, SAM has a few too many skills, maybe some of that sweet hotbar consolidation could happen, like what you guys did with GNB and their savage combo" but no one had ever asked for the removal of any skills. The addition of Ogi Namikiri was generally seen as a positive once people realized that Merciful Eyes and Seigan would be gone. Yes, it sucks to lose that little bit of extra survivability for solo situations, and optimizing damage via Seigan procs was a fun top-end challenge, but the addition of Ogi meant that our now-two-minute cycle flowed more smoothly. So in the end, Ogi was a big plus and the only way it would have been better is if they had found a way to keep Seigan in the game.

Conversely, Shoha 2 was met with a "that *might* be cool but..." reaction because it really begs the question of "why not just upgrade Shoha to Shoha 2 instead of giving us an entirely new button?" In short, any conversation about "skill pruning" was focused around the absolute number of skills a SAM had alongside the seemingly-wasteful additions that came in the form of Shoha 2 and Senei, not the frequency in which buttons were pressed. And it certainly never included "gutting the core resource engagement of the job" as a possibility.

I said this once before but this particular move feels like a rookie developer mistake. Someone new on the team, cutting their teeth in an environment where they have little-to-no experience looked at the "metrics," did some "math," and came to the conclusion that "nothing" would change - numerically speaking - if Kaiten were removed and the lost potency was "baked in" to the skills at a baseline. In short, it's a bean counters mistake, looking exclusively at spreadsheets and numbers while failing to understand the nuance that comes from the underlying challenge and enjoyment of properly utilizing Kaiten.

And of course many people use the stupid argument of "it's just a button you press, it's not hard," to which I say that pressing Kaiten may not take more than one brain cell but that's still one more brain cell than it takes to mindlessly spam Shinten. Any challenge, even a relatively insignificant one, is welcome. Particularly in light of how SE seems to be on a race to the bottom as far as dumbing down jobs.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

Literally who? Who asked for this in either the NA or JP communities? Name a single person, a single basis for justifying the removal of such an iconic ability.

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I remember one guy at the start of endwalker did, so one guy.

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Originally Posted by Acece

I remember one guy at the start of endwalker did, so one guy.

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Yeah but nobody likes him. Not after what he pulled.

Out of touch devs making changes for the sake of change. Bad job balancing. Walk it back

Do they really need to be ASKED to make changes to jobs?

ROW/TK Monk says no. No they don't.

So you put on your big kid pants, suck it up, and deal with it. Change jobs if it upsets you that much. Very rarely have they reversed course on decisions like this.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Do they really need to be ASKED to make changes to jobs?

ROW/TK Monk says no. No they don't.

So you put on your big kid pants, suck it up, and deal with it. Change jobs if it upsets you that much. Very rarely have they reversed course on decisions like this.

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I dunno, the outrage for Kaiten's removal is massive from both ENG and JP players. Yoshi even mentioned it on stream. They are even going to make a post attempting to justify it, as it seems 'button bloat' wasn't the reason even though it was previously stated. I think if the outrage continues, it'll be walked back

I think a lot of this drama wouldn't have kicked off had there not been a new melee dps introduced this expansion. It creates a sort of buyers remorse where players have to constantly justify why their job is superior to the new one. Players harped on endlessly on the forums and on reddit about how more skill SAM took to play than any other job, with the expectation that they would receive even bigger dps buffs to push them further ahead of everyone else. It backfired because then the dev team immediately began looking at ways of simplifying this 'overcomplicated' job to make it more accessible. And it's not the first time we've seen this exact sequence of events play out.

The playerbase defines the problem, not the solution.

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Originally Posted by DreadfullyAwful

I dunno, the outrage for Kaiten's removal is massive from both ENG and JP players. Yoshi even mentioned it on stream. They are even going to make a post attempting to justify it, as it seems 'button bloat' wasn't the reason even though it was previously stated. I think if the outrage continues, it'll be walked back

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The outrage for removing positionals on monk was pretty huge too.... but they're still not restored.

The original statement, as I read it, had nothing to do with button bloat, but to even out samurai damage across multiple runs. Where previously the damage differential if you did or did not get a crit could make a massive difference, now it won't. It's still a weak reason since I'd sure love my Phantom Rush to be a gaurenteed critical hit to even out my damage, but that's the reason they gave.

Heck, this isn't even the first contraversial change to just samurai. I dropped it and haven't looked back when they removed hagakure and forced samurai to do more iajutsu.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think a lot of this drama wouldn't have kicked off had there not been a new melee dps introduced this expansion. It creates a sort of buyers remorse where players have to constantly justify why their job is superior to the new one. Players harped on endlessly on the forums and on reddit about how more skill SAM took to play than any other job, with the expectation that they would receive even bigger dps buffs to push them further ahead of everyone else. It backfired because then the dev team immediately began looking at ways of simplifying this 'overcomplicated' job to make it more accessible. And it's not the first time we've seen this exact sequence of events play out.

The playerbase defines the problem, not the solution.

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Let them whine. I love their tears. They screeched incessantly at the beginning of the expansion, which caused them to be over-buffed when they didn’t need it. It’s what the Samurai community does.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Let them whine. I love their tears. They screeched incessantly at the beginning of the expansion, which caused them to be over-buffed when they didn’t need it. It’s what the Samurai community does.

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What is even your point with posting at all, you add nothing to the conversation at all except for gloating.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

What is even your point with posting at all, you add nothing to the conversation at all except for gloating.

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He's just a moronic troll. Best not to feed him. Just report his posts and move on.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

Show me on the DPS meter where the SAM touched you.

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ACT is against TOS

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Originally Posted by SlickPaws

He's just a moronic troll. Best not to feed him. Just report his posts and move on.

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Report away. Doesn’t change that the samurai community deserves every bit of it

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

ACT is against TOS

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It's funny how you are OMEGA salty about pity SAM buffs in 6.08 while reaper was broken from start and still solid class to play (you probably forgot that it was broken right?). And now you are happy that SAM gets 100% crit that makes them undesirable in log parties. And no, because you started talking about SAM vs reaper dps your trolling on forums is not just about kaiten removal.

Last thing doesnt make sense because you also going "measuring dps is against TOS". You literally complain about SAM 6.08 buffs, this is against TOS aswell you know, how you calculated that your precious reaper is not top class in party finder? Do you know that BLM above reaper aswell? or MNK? or DRG?

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Report away. Doesn’t change that the samurai community deserves every bit of it

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Trolling and hypocrisy...

When it comes to Samurai, the devs do have a *bit* of track record with reversing decisions. Hagakure was removed and then reintroduced under similar circumstances.

I see a lot of non-samurai players in these threads just telling people to "cope" which isnt a very productive thing and is a toxic mentality to begin with. If you are apathetic that's fine its not your job, but bringing vitriol or an I-told-you-so mentality isn't winning anyone to your side.

The best contributions I've seen are people chiming in to say that they don't expect it to change given the overall track record... which is a fair point to make. But hey, we can still make our voice heard.

Saying that something is against ToS means little, ToS are always extremely overreaching because they want to have as much room as possible to ban at their own discretion.
If the devs didn't want people to use ACT they'd take action against it, they only have it in the ToS so that they can ban people for harassing others with it or whatever.

This is just how ToS works not just in this game but overall.
They're never intended to be applied to the letter, if that was the case then people wouldn't be talking about using it openly and stream with it on.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

It's funny how you are OMEGA salty about pity SAM buffs in 6.08 while reaper was broken from start and still solid class to play (you probably forgot that it was broken right?). And now you are happy that SAM gets 100% crit that makes them undesirable in log parties.

Last thing doesnt make sense because you also going "measuring dps is against TOS". You literally complain about SAM 6.08 buffs, this is against TOS aswell you know, how you calculated that your precious reaper is not top class in party finder? Do you know that BLM above reaper aswell? or MNK? or DRG?


Trolling and hypocrisy...

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I’m not mad about their buffs. I just think it’s sad that you got them when you didn’t need them. What was broken about Reaper? Arcane Crest? Please. You were all told that reaper wasn’t going to scale well and that its raid buff was weak. And we were right.

Finally, this may or may not even hurt Samurai being a lock for speed runs. Their damage is that insanely high above the other melee.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Saying that something is against ToS means little, ToS are always extremely overreaching because they want to have as much room as possible to ban at their own discretion.
If the devs didn't want people to use ACT they'd take action against it, they only have it in the ToS so that they can ban people for harassing others with it or whatever.

This is just how ToS works not just in this game but overall.
They're never intended to be applied to the letter, if that was the case then people wouldn't be talking about using it openly and stream with it on.

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What is ACT? I know not what this parsing stuff is.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

I’m not mad about their buffs. I just think it’s sad that you got them when you didn’t need them. What was broken about Reaper? Arcane Crest? Please. You were all told that reaper wasn’t going to scale well and that its raid buff was weak. And we were right.

Finally, this may or may not even hurt Samurai being a lock for speed runs. Their damage is that insanely high above the other melee.

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Again, how do you know that some x class didnt need buffs? You ... you used some external resource like excel document right? This is against TOS you know.

"I am not mad about their buffs" looks like this:

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Let them whine. I love their tears. They screeched incessantly at the beginning of the expansion, which caused them to be over-buffed when they didn’t need it. It’s what the Samurai community does.

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Not only SAM screeched incessantly but also DRG/DNC/MCH, do i need to continue? Please, dont try to play into arcane crest. You literally upset because reaper is not top dps now like it was alongside with mnk.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

What is ACT? I know not what this parsing stuff is.

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Troll

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Originally Posted by wereotter

The outrage for removing positionals on monk was pretty huge too.... but they're still not restored.

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But that was massively split, too. There are a lot of folks happy with the removal of positionals. And, unlike the Kaiten debate, there were actually good arguments on both sides of the positional debate. The only argument for removing Kaiten is keystroke bloat, which was never a big complaint in the Sam community (number of hotkeys, yes; number of buttons pushed per minute, not really).

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The original statement, as I read it, had nothing to do with button bloat, but to even out samurai damage across multiple runs. Where previously the damage differential if you did or did not get a crit could make a massive difference, now it won't. It's still a weak reason since I'd sure love my Phantom Rush to be a gaurenteed critical hit to even out my damage, but that's the reason they gave.

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Agreed, although, it's worth pointing out that the auto-crit is what's really doing the lion's share of work between closing the gap between a parse's floor and ceiling due to RNG. Kaiten could have stayed with an auto-crit mechanic (it would have just required pushing the potency a little lower).

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Heck, this isn't even the first contraversial change to just samurai. I dropped it and haven't looked back when they removed hagakure and forced samurai to do more iajutsu.

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The brightside here is they did reverse the Hagakure removal. So maybe, we can look forward to some kind of reconciliation in this situation, too.

Nobody asked, this a change made to make the job more braindead that'll hurt some interesting aspect AND the feel of the job, everybody with more than 2 functional braincells can see it.

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

verse the Hagakure removal. So maybe, we can look forward to some kind of reconciliation in this situation, too.

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Hagakure came back as a button you only use to clear out your sen charges whereas it used to be a DPS increase to turn three sen into kenki over using it on midare. So the skill returning doesn't mean it's going to be what you had before.

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

But that was massively split, too. There are a lot of folks happy with the removal of positionals. And, unlike the Kaiten debate, there were actually good arguments on both sides of the positional debate. The only argument for removing Kaiten is keystroke bloat, which was never a big complaint in the Sam community (number of hotkeys, yes; number of buttons pushed per minute, not really).

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From what I saw on here, the only people who supported their removal were people who didn't and still don't play the job. Long time monk players were almost unanimously opposed to the change.

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Originally Posted by Renascent

Nobody asked, this a change made to make the job more braindead that'll hurt some interesting aspect AND the feel of the job, everybody with more than 2 functional braincells can see it.

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I didn't realize dark arts was that interesting....