Are we stuck with Summoner as it until next expac?

Clamping on to the general complaint that Summoner is now too easy and Carbuncle does absolutely nothing:


Is there any chance Summoner can be reworked in a patch, or do we have to wait for the next expac before any hope of reworking this job?

Expect nothing, even in 7.0. Nothing would be perfectly on track with how MCH has faired.

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Originally Posted by Snowdove

Clamping on to the general complaint that Summoner is now too easy and Carbuncle does absolutely nothing:


Is there any chance Summoner can be reworked in a patch, or do we have to wait for the next expac before any hope of reworking this job?

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For a large rework, it generally takes a new expansion, yes.

However, the current summoner is very popular, so I wouldn't count on a major shift at 7.0.

SMN is just fine.

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Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

SMN is just fine.

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Summoner is not fine. We know this simply from the fact that Carby needs to go on life support.

The way they redesigned summoner is to set it up for expansions to come, so I wouldn't expect anything as engaging as before until maybe 1 or 2 expansions.
I'm having issues filling out key parts of my hotbar that I almost ALWAYS use on every other job which is a wee bit oof.

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Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

SMN is just fine.

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1) Smn Is Just a spam of 3 buttons.
2) It has the 2 worst heals in the game: a heal that scales in mind and a bad design situational heal. (instead of putting a situational heal it could have a heal or ress stack to use like sch, Fair enough if we consider a dualcast ress spam of a rdm)
3) It has a carbuncle that It's useless
4) smn haven't ocgds
5) Smn mitigations are too unreliable bc the elementals animations are too long and can be ghosted. Forcing a 20 second predict at worst, otherwise you have lost the mitiagtion
6) Too useless instant cast spells, but when smn cast it's unable to slidecast
7) smn laks versatily, smn can decide lego phase but bahamut/Phoenix burst fase Is forced othetwise smn hasnt spells.

but already from point one we understand that the smn is not fine.

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Originally Posted by Bad_Luck

SMN is just fine.

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People saying this like you also say that Kaiten removal on Samurai is fine.

It's clear that SE doesn,t plan to make you use more brain power on Summoner. I don't expect anything of Summoner at 7.0. The job isn't fun / worth in my eyes to raid with and it will suffer the White Mage treatment. White Mage has always been inferior to Astrologian in top level play but White Mage is super popular by casuals. Casuals are higher in number and easier to keep. The game design is catered toward casuals.

At the rate this is going and it may sound like I'm overexaggerating and spreading :IMPEDENT DOOOOOOM: but Summoner was the first old DPS job to become brain dead. Healers were the first victim with the removal of cleric stance and 2 DPS button. We saw signs of butchered job design is the form of Dark Arts removal, Gauss Riffle removal, very simple Dancer job. Even Reaper is super easy and brain dead; Just don't die. So why would you change a successful change? Because Summoner is a success, people play it more now. It doesn't matter if its completely broken and unloved in raid. It surprises me how it took Samurai to lose Kaiten for people to realize this.

I still resent all the trolls and memers who said SMN deserved the shit damage for being a physical brain dead ranged job. I'm sure some of those people are not against their precious Samurai being butchered. If everyone with a brain cell had advocately went against Summoner changes and flooded the forums with complains; who knows if Kaiten would have been removed? Most likely yeah but I'm trying to be optimistic.

Here's a funny list of things they could do to butcher further;
- Fuse the second combo for Dragoon to make it 1-2-3-4-5-1-2-6-5-4. Add a stronger second part combo for Dragoon. (7.0)
- Black Mage, remove the damage reduction from casting spells on the wrong element like F3/B3 to swap elements. There's a 40 pages on how to optimize your BLM rotation skipping those spells. (7.0)
- Removing all positionals (7.0) and, of course, keep melee DPS higher than any other DPS role.
- Removing your combo string break from popping Manafaction on Red Mage

You suffer from success. They want to grow the came further so it will be needed.

Also, there is still the issue this game still has spiderweb PS3 coding that limits it like how they are limited on the amount of actions they can implement while always adding completely new jobs.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

The way they redesigned summoner is to set it up for expansions to come, so I wouldn't expect anything as engaging as before until maybe 1 or 2 expansions.
I'm having issues filling out key parts of my hotbar that I almost ALWAYS use on every other job which is a wee bit oof.

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I remember hearing this argument a lot for MCH last expansion. Nothing happened.

On the forums: ZOMG SMN dead when SQEnix fix?

In the game: SMNs all over the place enjoying the class.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

On the forums: ZOMG SMN dead when SQEnix fix?

In the game: SMNs all over the place enjoying the class.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Basically, this. If only the rework had happened far sooner than it did, so we could be calling up Alexander by now. The job has a lot of lost time it needs to make up for, but satisfaction seems to remain high in-game.

I just hope we at least get the devs talking about RDM vs SMN. They fit the exact same slot, with red mage doing everything that SMN can better.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

On the forums: ZOMG SMN dead when SQEnix fix?

In the game: SMNs all over the place enjoying the class.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Just because the job is popular doesn't mean it's perfect or well designed. SMN has a bunch of flaws and feels unfinished compared to any other lvl 90 jobs. Why you see so many of them in-game is because it's easy to play and pretty to look at. It's the same with whm, which is very flawed when compared to AST but people still play whm because its the easiest healer to play. Right now smn and rdm are basically the same job but rdm can do everything an smn can do but better. Rdm can rez ppl faster and easier, rdm has an on-demand utility(magic barrier), their buffs are basically the same, and their dps is pretty equal though I believe rdm is still slightly above smn right now in rdps. So yeah just because you so many ppl playing a job doesn't that job is in a good place all content. In fact, I play smn right because of the lack of choices in casters. I don't really care for rdm's style and I hate blm so even tho I don't like the smn's rework I still play it because I don't have a 4th option in the caster role. I rather play caster closer to blm's damage with no healing utility and an engaging rotation but we don't have currently that other than blm.

The unfortunate reality is we likely won’t see any substantial changes at least until 7.0.

Maybe some potency changes. I would be ok hanging out until 7.0 if they removed rez, and increased our potency between blm and rdm.

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Originally Posted by Edweena

The way they redesigned summoner is to set it up for expansions to come, so I wouldn't expect anything as engaging as before until maybe 1 or 2 expansions.
I'm having issues filling out key parts of my hotbar that I almost ALWAYS use on every other job which is a wee bit oof.

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I wouldn't bet on them making it any more engaging with future expansions unless there are enough complaints. It'd probably get done dirty like MCH, so just like another one tap GCD skill you use in Bahamut or something, I would guess. Maybe something like "After using searing light, you can do a big hit spell exactly once"

Welcome to the club.

Feel free to mingle amongst the machinists and healers. Samurai may be joining us at some point.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

Welcome to the club.

Feel free to mingle amongst the machinists and healers. Samurai may be joining us at some point.

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Meanwhile MNK has been sitting there since 5.4 and is just happy to have the company for once.
I'm not gonna lie, I never really played SMN all that much pre-6.0. I pretty much levelled it by playing SCH for a long time and ignored the class. What I did play though, I enjoyed because I've always liked DoT-based classes and having the ability to spread out DoTs with Bane and then apply extra burst on top with things like Fester just felt really satisfying to me. Since 6.0, I've played SMN precisely twice - once to wail on a training dummy to see how I liked the changes, one more time running a dungeon to see how it worked out practically and I'm really not a fan. Not a huge deal because I wasn't massively interested in SMN to begin with, but if the intention was to make the class more popular and accessible, they missed the mark for me. I feel for the SMN mains who have been complaining since 6.0 but I also feel like it's pissing in the wind to even complain about it anymore. I'm saving all my salt for when Kaiten finally gets the axe and even then - with countless threads about it and everyone complaining - I don't see Squeenix walking this back any time soon.

I doubt we'll get another huge rework in 7.0. Most people outside of the forums seem content with it.
Personally I never really enjoyed SMN before 6.0 and I still don't enjoy it now. I would be more interested in it if it had more OGCDs. But as long as it shares EXP with SCH, I'm probably not gonna spend any time with it.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

1) Smn Is Just a spam of 3 buttons.
2) It has the 2 worst heals in the game: a heal that scales in mind and a bad design situational heal. (instead of putting a situational heal it could have a heal or ress stack to use like sch, Fair enough if we consider a dualcast ress spam of a rdm)
3) It has a carbuncle that It's useless
4) smn haven't ocgds
5) Smn mitigations are too unreliable bc the elementals animations are too long and can be ghosted. Forcing a 20 second predict at worst, otherwise you have lost the mitiagtion
6) Too useless instant cast spells, but when smn cast it's unable to slidecast
7) smn laks versatily, smn can decide lego phase but bahamut/Phoenix burst fase Is forced othetwise smn hasnt spells.

but already from point one we understand that the smn is not fine.

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1) if you only hit 3 buttons you are doing sth wrong (i know what you mean)
2) it has 1 outdated heal and got 2 new ones. The Phoenix AOE HoT and a single target HoT that are really really good, sure they are not as easy and "on demand" like rdm but blm got nothing not even a rezz^^
3) after tuesday it still gives you a shield, but yeah its garbage and probably only here to trigger the summons until they find a way to remove that obstacle
4) wrong
5) i never ghosted the shield... just dont hit it right before you summon something.. its a 30second shield afterall ... plan ahead!
6) wrong
7) thats alot of versatily.. other jobs are close to that or even worse

all 3 casters play different and i like that.
Would i like the old summoner back? Yes, it was punishing and hard to master.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Basically, this. If only the rework had happened far sooner than it did, so we could be calling up Alexander by now. The job has a lot of lost time it needs to make up for, but satisfaction seems to remain high in-game.

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The fact you still think we’re getting any more primals when SE took a shotgun to the rotation to give us the ARR phase changes with extra bloom is perfectly in line with your usual takes. That is to say, cosmically out of touch.

7/10. No brains.

FFXI's Summoner literally kept getting summons after the main story for that game ended. Do you not understand the point of the class being *summoning things*? I knew it wouldn't be long before the conversation took the turn it did, but I had hoped for something a little more grounded than "SE will never give us new summons!" Goodness.

Where they will fit them in is another question entirely, whether is glamours, gems, or demis. Now that there are no more irrelevant poisons spells to tack on each expansion, they can finally focus on stuff that belongs on Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Flana

I remember hearing this argument a lot for MCH last expansion. Nothing happened.

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It feels like they just didn't want to do anything at all with Machinist this expansion, seems like a lot of conservative effort for maintaining machinist as it was in SHB since people seemed to like it.
Now machinist has to reallllllly compete with a better bard (loads of QOL making it much better to play) and an already effective dancer kind of pushes Machinist down in the PHYS ranged role.
Some of the design philosophy seems to just really be #nochanges when it comes to jobs they know people like without considering how the job relates to others in it's role, as it's easy to say at least bard in SHB was a bit poor.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

FFXI's Summoner literally kept getting summons after the main story for that game ended. Do you not understand the point of the class being *summoning things*? I knew it wouldn't be long before the conversation took the turn it did, but I had hoped for something a little more grounded than "SE will never give us new summons!" Goodness.

Where they will fit them in is another question entirely, whether is glamours, gems, or demis. Now that there are no more irrelevant poisons spells to tack on each expansion, they can finally focus on stuff that belongs on Summoner.

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More summons are very feasible with Phoenix (after activation), your Ifrit / Garuda / Titan could easily change into Shiva / Ramuh / Leviathan like that (and revert back to Ifrit / Garuda / Titan) and have minor mechanical differences, the job would still be largely the same.
It's essentially the largest non-change (it's like upgrading an ability) while fulfilling the summoner fantasy.
I myself would love for aetherflow to be a 30 sec cd like it was before (with hopefully 2 charges? more apm please), and axe ruin 4 or w/e since it just occupies a gcd we REALLY NEED to hard cast rez if we have to.
As it is right now I'm just likely to play BLM when I want to feel challenged, and RDM when I want to prog or go easy. SMN doesn't fit any sort of activity for me currently, unlike last expansion where I primarily played it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

FFXI's Summoner literally kept getting summons after the main story for that game ended. Do you not understand the point of the class being *summoning things*? I knew it wouldn't be long before the conversation took the turn it did, but I had hoped for something a little more grounded than "SE will never give us new summons!" Goodness.

Where they will fit them in is another question entirely, whether is glamours, gems, or demis. Now that there are no more irrelevant poisons spells to tack on each expansion, they can finally focus on stuff that belongs on Summoner.

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What if I don't want new summons though? What if I want DoTs and the ability to glamour all my summon animations into Carbuncles of various flavours?
More Carbuncles, less obnoxiously large summons that only appear for a few seconds anyway! :D

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Originally Posted by SlickPaws

What if I don't want new summons though? What if I want DoTs and the ability to glamour all my summon animations into Carbuncles of various flavours?
More Carbuncles, less obnoxiously large summons that only appear for a few seconds anyway! :D

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There is no basis on which anyone can reasonably deny adding more Carbuncles as glam-sliding the hue slider on whatever texture file is assigned to its model will produce the desired effect. They should have added Obsidian, Diamond, and other color Carbuncles in ARR.

However, large summons is kind of the job fantasy that draws people to the job in most FF games, and what made FFXIV's SMN a joke for so long because it didn't have any until Bahamut was added in 2017. Dots aren't coming back to this job, at most we might get a 1-off thunderspark ability that doesn't need much in the way of management when Ramuh gets added.

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Originally Posted by Nuki

1) if you only hit 3 buttons you are doing sth wrong (i know what you mean)
2) it has 1 outdated heal and got 2 new ones. The Phoenix AOE HoT and a single target HoT that are really really good, sure they are not as easy and "on demand" like rdm but blm got nothing not even a rezz^^
3) after tuesday it still gives you a shield, but yeah its garbage and probably only here to trigger the summons until they find a way to remove that obstacle
4) wrong
5) i never ghosted the shield... just dont hit it right before you summon something.. its a 30second shield afterall ... plan ahead!
6) wrong
7) thats alot of versatily.. other jobs are close to that or even worse

all 3 casters play different and i like that.
Would i like the old summoner back? Yes, it was punishing and hard to master.

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1) true, in burst phase 3 buttons + fester
2) yeah a heal that i can use in 20 sec every 2 minute, yup Is really good :/ also has a hot that is the same as that of the dnc but that it cannot plan. the blm is a selfish DPS that has a lot more DPS than rdm e and smn, it does not need the ress or utility because it is not designed as a utility class
3) nothing else
4) fester in burst Windows, shields, addle and? Nothing else. Garuda it's Just spam of Emerald rite
5) let's go back to point and line, you have to make some pretty early predictions, especially if you enter burst Windows. the other mitigations are instant, this is more of a side effect and I don't think it was designed that way (I refuse to think that it was a design choice to make it more difficult to shield yourself from beating up a boss)
6) if you can slidecast in ifrit you are a genius, if you explain to me how do you do it if it has a lower cooldown than the cast time? let's face it, it's not even that much of a problem considering all the instant spells that the smn has, but they stuffed it with instant spells but then it has to stand still for 2.5 seconds at each ruby ​​rite and splistream forcing it to use swiftcast and actually lose the ress, because if you hardcast the ress, first wipe the boss.
7) the other classes do not force you to enter the burst phase by causing you to lose all spells

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Originally Posted by Flana

I remember hearing this argument a lot for MCH last expansion. Nothing happened.

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More than that, MCH was now actually worse due to the Queen being even more janky and heat gauge losing a lot of flexibility.
I could also argue "If MCH had the rework earlier, we would be summoning Cruise Chaser" but for EW we got Crown Collider that is by far among the most disappointing ability on level up. A trait that increases the damage of Pile Bunker would've been the same but with more control and less jankiness. But this is a SMN thread.

You can also add that to jobs that feels incomplete or weird such as Warrior maintaining a buff for some reason and DRK Dark side being virtually non existent. As long as you keep your MP away from being capped, you will never lose the buff.

Then you have jobs that feels incredibly good and complete but got even more complete with EW.
See GNB and RPR.

SMN is like this because SQEX wants it to be like this.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

There is no basis on which anyone can reasonably deny adding more Carbuncles as glam-sliding the hue slider on whatever texture file is assigned to its model will produce the desired effect. They should have added Obsidian, Diamond, and other color Carbuncles in ARR.

However, large summons is kind of the job fantasy that draws people to the job in most FF games, and what made FFXIV's SMN a joke for so long because it didn't have any until Bahamut was added in 2017. Dots aren't coming back to this job, at most we might get a 1-off thunderspark ability that doesn't need much in the way of management when Ramuh gets added.

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The reason it's not gonna happen is because it takes too much development resources and for all of that effort it's already been proven that it will not make the current iteration more fun than prior iterations in the LONG RUN. At best, it's just graphical upgrades. At worst, the job becomes a 60 second cutscene. And unlike the playstation, you can't implement a skip button on those terrible animations. That's what you're advocating for. And, frankly, past a certain point, people are here to play a videogame. Summoner will not survive without another rework to make it -able- to support an actual rotation. And I want that version because it'll be able to support actual Summons AND actual gameplay. This version doesn't. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

The reason it's not gonna happen is because it takes too much development resources and for all of that effort it's already been proven that it will not make the current iteration more fun than prior iterations in the LONG RUN. At best, it's just graphical upgrades. At worst, the job becomes a 60 second cutscene. And unlike the playstation, you can't implement a skip button on those terrible animations. That's what you're advocating for. And, frankly, past a certain point, people are here to play a videogame. Summoner will not survive without another rework to make it -able- to support an actual rotation. And I want that version because it'll be able to support actual Summons AND actual gameplay. This version doesn't. It's that simple.

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1. The job will continue to receive new summons, whether you believe it will or not. You know, given that it's received one each expansion since Stormblood.

2. It already has a rotation. Whether you like it or not is another question entirely.

3. You'll get your new buttons in 7.0.

4. The chances of another total rework are extremely unlikely. What is more likely is building off the clean slate they made for themselves now. You can enjoy it in its current state or wait until 7.0 if that is your preference.

5. If you don't like big flashy summons then possibly Final Fantasy's Summoner is not the class you should be playing.

6. No, Carbuncle will not become the future of the job as you attempted to claim once in a previous thread, nor will they double down on the broken pet AI that made Summoner such a headache in previous expansions. Summons will now be 1-off animations or coded in the way of new Demis.

Personally I do understand why they changed SMN the way they did. There was always a conflicting design with it to begin with. It was a dot mage and a summoner rolled into one. Both the dots and summons/trance didn't correlate and that ended up in a messy and clunky kit. Pet AI being an issue for the longest.

I do suspect that SMN was supposed to be a different job when it got released. Perhaps a Necromancer befure they realized that didn't want the WoL to use evil magic (yet we have Reaper).

SMN for me right now just lacks filler. I think that the primal rotations before demi summons is a fine idea, and even fits the fast summons feeling like in Tactics. Perhaps they could add mini summons that act like oGCDs.

To elaborate, I personally don't like that the AoE regen and ST regen is locked behind a demi summon because you're never going to have it up for a time you may need it. Mini summons are just the egi versions of summons that act like the current Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan summons, pop in and then out.

We could have DPS-oriented mini summons like "Phantom Train" as an oGCD line AoE, or " Ramuh" as a ST dps button. Perhaps Shiva with a dot or cone AoE. Leviathan can be dot or line AoE as well. The possibilities are endless.

And then we get our support ones like Alexander with a ST regen with its time magic thing. Moogle for AoE regen or AoE magic shield.

They tore down SMN because they wanted a fresh start. Hopefully it works.

I used to consider SMN my main class. Only played since shadowbringers, but I loved it. There were some rough edges but it never bothered me much since it was such a unique caster with its own identity.
Then 6.0 happened and it became a ranged physical DPS.
I'm no longer playing SMN. Destroyed all the weapons, deleted the gearset. I refuse to give it even a millisecond more playtime in the game statistics. I'd suggest anyone upset about the rework to do the same.