So what is the new "dungeon" thing we getting?

I can't find info on it if there any. What you think and hope it be .
I hope it be the same dungeons as now but there be a more difficult version. Like trial or raids or in wow.
What you think

Sounds like new dungeons but I could be wrong. Perhaps this is what many have been asking for guess we need to wait for the next live letter for more information.

I am thinking it may be similar to swtor's system where you go in with 1-4 players and it scales its difficulty. So it is the same dungeon, but you could complete it with not a full party. Though already, I have to say, when going into dungeons with starter gear(previous tombstone expansion gear) from stormblood to shadowbringers right now ilevel synced(I think the term is) and unsynced so only duoing, it is very possible to do those dungeons already with only a tank and a healer. I was in scavean and I was curious how hard it would be to do the first pull without dps for holminster. It was really fun, stressful, and I learned alot about how to play sage. Unsure if it will be that intense though probably if they release difficulty scale as well with how hard you want it to be. So hopefully they will have a way to use 4 player difficulty with 2 players to mess around with if people want to test themselves.

We weren't given a lot of details but I think they will be brand new dungeons entirely and that there will be 3 of them by the end of the expansion.

You can do them with 1-4 players like POTD and the difficulty is scalable. It seems a response to people's request for what wow has with mythic+.

Although it's possible it could just be "unreal" and altered versions of old dungeons, this would probably have been clarified if it was.

I swear to Zodiark, if they're just copying WoW with Mythic+ I'll ...
well, I'll just go about my business pretending they don't exist. Like PotD, HoH, Eureka and Bozja.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jennah

I swear to Zodiark, if they're just copying WoW with Mythic+ I'll ...
well, I'll just go about my business pretending they don't exist. Like PotD, HoH, Eureka and Bozja.

---

And you're free to do so! Not all content is for everyone. I personally believe the game gets better overall when it can cater to multiple types of players!

Going back to find it in the Live Letter... https://youtu.be/WRpdIL7_NII?t=9993

There is really not much there yet... Just that it's dungeon content that scales difficulty based on the number of party members.

All we know so far is they're called Criterion dungeons, there are 3 mentioned so far, and the difficulty scales with the number of players.

I remember back in EQII where the adventure pack for the Splitpaw Saga had instances that would do this. It was quite enjoyable. Hopefully there's a story that goes along with it. And I'm curious what the rewards will be. I hope they don't punish anyone who goes in solo and just make the instance give the same regardless of number of players.

we dont even know its initial difficulty. is it, in a group of 4, the same as all the other dungeons? probably. but to be sure we have to wait.

people who hope now for more difficult dungeons might be dissappointed

To me, it sounds like a form of High-end dungeons for light parties. Maybe a high-end gearing alternative with the same ilvl as savage raids? Or an alternative with the same ilvl as alliance raids? I can't tell, but it sounds more difficult than the typical dungeons we have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jennah

I swear to Zodiark, if they're just copying WoW with Mythic+ I'll ...
well, I'll just go about my business pretending they don't exist. Like PotD, HoH, Eureka and Bozja.

---

Dude, I would love M+. I doubt that'll be the case, but having the opportunity to face savage (or higher) equivalent challenges in dungeons and earn gear appropriate to that challenge would be pretty awesome.

The only thing I'm really hoping for is some sort of properly scaled solo version of the content instead of the wonky, unbalanced "solo" Deep Dungeons. I have no idea how they'll be able to do that but it's what I'm hoping for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jennah

I swear to Zodiark, if they're just copying WoW with Mythic+ I'll ...
well, I'll just go about my business pretending they don't exist. Like PotD, HoH, Eureka and Bozja.

---

Nothing is actually terrible about the concept of Mythic+
It's rather the execution, as well as listening to the feedback that is bad. For example, one of the things hated about Mythic+ is the Keystone system. You'll need to do another dungeon to get it, then form your own party, before heading in with a chance someone leaves and you get punished instead. Solve this and other issues with Mythic+ and you'll have a working system everyone loves!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kranel_San

Solve this and other issues with Mythic+ and you'll have a working system everyone loves!

---

They went also to eSportish with the dungeons as well. You either need a perfect interrupt rotation for given trash pack or you wipe. Or if you wipe given pull or boss first pull it's wasted as you either won't make it in time or will not defeat the boss due to loss of a one time big buff. Legion design aside of problems with scaling at high key levels was quite fun, but then subsequent iterations got more and more annoying.

And it would be hard to make queue for M+ alike in FF as it would require grading players by their performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jennah

I swear to Zodiark, if they're just copying WoW with Mythic+ I'll ...
well, I'll just go about my business pretending they don't exist. Like PotD, HoH, Eureka and Bozja.

---

And that would be perfect, because that's exactly what many people are asking for. Repeatable, hard (hopefully), varied content, just like PotD, HoH, Eureka and Bozja. They just need to make the boring parts more enjoyable (like proccing duels or the first 70-170 deep dungeon floors).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jennah

I swear to Zodiark, if they're just copying WoW with Mythic+ I'll ...
well, I'll just go about my business pretending they don't exist. Like PotD, HoH, Eureka and Bozja.

---

Which is fine. You'd be no more obliged to do that than anyone else would be to do Exploratory or Auto-generated Grid grinds.

______________

It seems like any conversation about Mythic+ quickly devolves into 'core' vs. 'externalities'.

Let's say we make it so that to do the 3rd tier of any expansion's Savage, you had to progress through ascending difficulty levels of the previous 8 fights, with new mechanics being added with every 3rd additional difficulty level. But rather than being able to select which one to progress through, you get a Key Item that unlocks just one of them, so you and your party are dependent on someone having the Key Item you want if you've any preferences as to which fight to progress in its challenge modes. Those are the externalities of Mythic+, the system bloat that tries to curtail how much people can do Mythic+, and skip out on other avenues of progression, if it gets too fun.

The system would work just fine if you could select any fight to Challenge, at any Challenge Level. Its only core is that there are many fine levels of difficulty (think 3 difficulties levels just between Normal and Extreme, Extreme and Savage, Savage and Ultimate, so more anxious players could still progress -- at less frustratingly large steps, if they so please) and the optional addition of further, typically mechanics that shake up how you approach the given piece of content. Or, put more simply: it offers far finer player-chosen difficulty tuning, optional additional mechanics, a further sense of progression, and thereby highly cost-efficient variety and longevity for content made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

And you're free to do so! Not all content is for everyone. I personally believe the game gets better overall when it can cater to multiple types of players!

---

And not be afraid to do so . Players attempting to hold a developer hostage with threats of outrage and twitter shaming because a dev "dares" to make challenging content are deplorable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

I can't find info on it if there any. What you think and hope it be .
I hope it be the same dungeons as now but there be a more difficult version. Like trial or raids or in wow.
What you think

---

Sounds like it'll be almost the opposite, the same sort of dungeons we always get that can be downscaled for fewer players, maybe like Scenarios from WoW. So nice for dps jobs I suppose. More difficult dungeons would be nice but probably not going to happen.

I don't think it's just a dungeon with downscaling available as they mentioned they were planning on adding more challenging solo content as well as a way to bring some of systems from Bozja into other modes (Which I assume was probably referring to the lost actions).

Just its name of the Criterion sounds like some kind of Sharlayan facility designed to test/train individuals, so I'd assume there's probably multiple stages akin to the Masked Carnivale.

Do NOT get your hopes up. That's for sure. Copied from Reddit:

Don't let your imagination run wild. Don't treat what they reveal in the live letter as merely the foundation (it often basically is everything). Keep your expectations low. People act as if the liveletter reveals are teasers or just showing off one aspect, even tho there's no real precedent for this, and it's pretty much always just a straight anouncement. Everything they show off ends up as exactly what was shown, no improvements or expanding on what you'd thought would be fundamentals based on their simplicity.

Well, we know SE does not want to "burden" healers, so having difficulty be varied based on the number of players would mean this will be a role-free content.

If that's the case, how would they make it difficult?

The only examples of role-free content that I can think of are deep dungeons and Eureka/Bozja where you have additional (borrowed?) powers in addition to the regular job skills.

If they go this route, I hope they make it more like deep dungeons where you can get the powers from the run itself rather than Eureka/Bozja where you need to get the powers outside before you're ready to do the dungeons.

That said, on the other hand, I do prefer it if there is no additional power and just have it be the regular jobs' skills.

Either way, gear would likely be synced to make it easier to set the difficulty, and I don't mind that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Well, we know SE does not want to "burden" healers, so having difficulty be varied based on the number of players would mean this will be a role-free content.

If that's the case, how would they make it difficult?

The only examples of role-free content that I can think of are deep dungeons and Eureka/Bozja where you have additional (borrowed?) powers in addition to the regular job skills.

If they go this route, I hope they make it more like deep dungeons where you can get the powers from the run itself rather than Eureka/Bozja where you need to get the powers outside before you're ready to do the dungeons.

That said, on the other hand, I do prefer it if there is no additional power and just have it be the regular jobs' skills.

Either way, gear would likely be synced to make it easier to set the difficulty, and I don't mind that.

---

I want a talent tree for this content, which let you build up as you run with group, then you keep getting stronger until you can solo the thing. I really hate the idea of consumable logos/lost actions. I want something that my character can always access.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Well, we know SE does not want to "burden" healers, so having difficulty be varied based on the number of players would mean this will be a role-free content.

If that's the case, how would they make it difficult?

The only examples of role-free content that I can think of are deep dungeons and Eureka/Bozja where you have additional (borrowed?) powers in addition to the regular job skills.

If they go this route, I hope they make it more like deep dungeons where you can get the powers from the run itself rather than Eureka/Bozja where you need to get the powers outside before you're ready to do the dungeons.

That said, on the other hand, I do prefer it if there is no additional power and just have it be the regular jobs' skills.

Either way, gear would likely be synced to make it easier to set the difficulty, and I don't mind that.

---

A system like the Lost Actions from Bozja does seem the most reasonable course to go with, if they want it to be like regular dungeons but also be soloable or completely unrestricted in roles. BLM can't heal itself at all and other DPS can't really sustain themselves on Second Wind and Bloodshed alone (or Physick spam).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

I want a talent tree for this content, which let you build up as you run with group, then you keep getting stronger until you can solo the thing. I really hate the idea of consumable logos/lost actions. I want something that my character can always access.

---

My interpretation is that the difficulty setting would have it be easiest on solo runs and hardest on 4-player runs (with presumably varying rewards to compensate).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

A system like the Lost Actions from Bozja does seem the most reasonable course to go with, if they want it to be like regular dungeons but also be soloable or completely unrestricted in roles. BLM can't heal itself at all and other DPS can't really sustain themselves on Second Wind and Bloodshed alone (or Physick spam).

---

Either that or have the enemy and/or mechanics change based on your group composition.

It sounds like the challenging 4 person content people have been clamoring for. In my opinion people that are downplaying it saying it will be normal difficulty dungeon but scalabe for less people are being overly negative. This seems like a new type of content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

I can't find info on it if there any. What you think and hope it be .
I hope it be the same dungeons as now but there be a more difficult version. Like trial or raids or in wow.
What you think

---

I feel like, even if they reuse old dungeon structure for this (like unreal mode), they will probably have to redesign the encounters themselves to be able to cope with the possible lack of a tank and healer.

But at the same time, there's precedent with a Lost Action-esque system to help with this too.

It's not going to be some 1 percenter content, so the people in this thread fantasizing over that should prepare themselves for disappointment now.

This game is not WoW nor any other game that caters to the endgame hardcores that are a small fraction of the playerbase and it never will be.

Like everyone else, I don't know what it will be, but I can pretty confidently say what it won't be.

There would be 0 point to trickling 1~3 of this new type of dungeon if it's just going to be like regular hallway-sim dungeons we already have but scalable.

I'm personally hoping this will be real 'exploratory' dungeons, with traps and side passages etc. Since it's scale able between 1-4 people you don't need to go with randoms, can go by yourself or with a couple of friends and therefore communicate/have same goals about peeking into every corner.

Not really as they clearly call it a dungeon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seraseth

I'm personally hoping this will be real 'exploratory' dungeons, with traps and side passages etc. Since it's scale able between 1-4 people you don't need to go with randoms, can go by yourself or with a couple of friends and therefore communicate/have same goals about peeking into every corner.

---

You don't NEED TO GO witch randoms now as well. As a meter of fact it's more fun to have a party before you go as then you will have the people you like to have,that play the same way you do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

You don't NEED TO GO witch randoms now as well. As a meter of fact it's more fun to have a party before you go as then you will have the people you like to have,that play the same way you do.

---

That's if you have 3 other friends you're playing with. If it's only 1-2 other people, you still need randoms to fill in the rest of the slots. Plus if it's scaling between 1-4 people, it may not need the exact composition of tank/healer/2 dps, which helps if you don't have any friends who want to play a healer or a tank.

Edit: Basically just saying if it's scaling to number of people, it doesn't need to be a duty finder thing, and if you're not being paired with random people, the content can be more unique.

i think it's like lost ark or other korean mmo i've played, where u can enter a dungeon solo or with party

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seraseth

That's if you have 3 other friends you're playing with. If it's only 1-2 other people, you still need randoms to fill in the rest of the slots. Plus if it's scaling between 1-4 people, it may not need the exact composition of tank/healer/2 dps, which helps if you don't have any friends who want to play a healer or a tank.

Edit: Basically just saying if it's scaling to number of people, it doesn't need to be a duty finder thing, and if you're not being paired with random people, the content can be more unique.

---

No not really. I know it's a crazy thing but you can look for people by shouting. Crazy but work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamsaraTrickstar

You don't NEED TO GO witch randoms now as well. As a meter of fact it's more fun to have a party before you go as then you will have the people you like to have,that play the same way you do.

---

The difference (I hope) is that criterion might not be part of a weekly Duty Finder routine that completely discourages engagement. God knows they should be like PotD where the group or player picks to do however and whenever they like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

The difference (I hope) is that criterion might not be part of a weekly Duty Finder routine that completely discourages engagement. God knows they should be like PotD where the group or player picks to do however and whenever they like.

---

Thing is as much as I love potd the second one in SB was a fail for some time. There was really hard to not possible to find people willing to do all of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

... and the difficulty is scalable. It seems a response to people's request for what wow has with mythic+.

---

Sweet mother of god I sincerely hope not.

1-4 players, which means, no holy trinity needed, which means, healers being even more useless.
I'm not excited at all.

A lot of people are linking the "Variable difficulty" with the number of players but I took that as a different aspect. I thought that "variable difficulty" was separate from the "1-4 players" (i.e. there would be some sort of variable difficulty even between 4 player groups).

Maybe something similar to FF7's arena mode, where after certain points in the dungeon a slot machine shows up and somehow debuffs the party or buffs enemies and those stack up as you go (similar to the effects in PotD/HoH)? In FF7, the "worse" the debuffs, the more rewards you got for winning.

Or, just simply the same dungeon that gets more and more difficult as you increase its difficulty.

It seems like it'd be silly to just add something that was just for 1-4 players because that's kind of what PotD/HoH are for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Novae

1-4 players, which means, no holy trinity needed, which means, healers being even more useless.
I'm not excited at all.

---

Ear is all you need