Toxic DPS

Just got out of Saint Mocianne’s Arboretum (Hard) as DRK. Pulled roughly two mobs at a time and at one point a SAM ran ahead and started fighting another mob while I and the team were still dealing with my current pull. I responded “Don’t pull ahead of me, please”. Their response? “Then pull like a man.” I explained I’m not a tank main and going at a pace I’m comfortable with and to not be a dick. They responded “Don’t make me laugh”.
The last boss they and the rest of the team died to failed mechanics but I managed to solo the boss from about 40%. It felt good, but my mood’s been soured from this toxic DPS. Is their behavior reportable? If not, how do you tank mains go about dealing with it?

Not sure if it's reportable, but if I get something that like that I generally either bite my tongue and move past it the best I can or I'll say something back if it annoys me enough, then move past it after the instance is over. I hate it when dps pull for me too but it's something we generally deal with and get used to just pulling the mobs they did. That and it can be considered griefing if we let them die because we didn't take the mobs off them...which is reportable.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

how do you tank mains go about dealing with it?

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I take the mobs off them and continue with my w2w pull.

At Level 70 w2w pulls are the norm and should not be a problem, the ypyt mentality tanks are the toxic ones imo.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

Just got out of Saint Mocianne’s Arboretum (Hard) as DRK. Pulled roughly two mobs at a time and at one point a SAM ran ahead and started fighting another mob while I and the team were still dealing with my current pull. I responded “Don’t pull ahead of me, please”. Their response? “Then pull like a man.” I explained I’m not a tank main and going at a pace I’m comfortable with and to not be a dick. They responded “Don’t make me laugh”.
The last boss they and the rest of the team died to failed mechanics but I managed to solo the boss from about 40%. It felt good, but my mood’s been soured from this toxic DPS. Is their behavior reportable? If not, how do you tank mains go about dealing with it?

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I don't know if it's wise to assume that your mood was the only one soured, as is implied here. If you'd been single-pulling for the entire dungeon, slowing the run by some 25+%, such is unlikely. If the majority of that group generally preferred a normal (full-pull) pace, they'd be just as in the right to kick you for insisting on slowing on the run as you'd be in the right to kick the SAM if s/he were alone in wanting to speed it up but insisted on doing so.

More importantly, though, if you're single-pulling now, you're never going to get comfortable with more unless you push yourself at some point -- and the sooner the better, for the sake of your average parties' patience in the long term. Any time a DPS pulls for you, that's an excuse to go full out and learn; at worst case, you can blame that DPS if/when you wipe.

Your job is not to be the sole puller. Your job, like everyone else's, is to speed up the clear as best you can.

That does include not taking such odd risks as to likely die, but any such risks are absurdly rare, mostly limited to boss cheese, and their dangers quickly unmade by learning precisely how to do said cheese. W2W pulls are not a "risk", but rather the norm.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

generally either bite my tongue and move past it the best I can or I'll say something back if it annoys me enough

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Can't edit on mobile but for clarification it's only if they say something snarky to me.

Either way, yeah if I get them I just take the mobs because W2W is the norm as Niobee stated. That and I would W2W anyway because I love pulling everything to begin with

As a tank main my advice is don't be slow when your party can handle fast.

The level of snark and horrible attitude they had was unacceptable though. I wasn't pulling one at a time and frequently pulled up until we reached a barrier. Regardless of if you want me to go faster/slower, it's not hard to be respectful.

It wasn't the party, it was one DPS.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

The level of snark and horrible attitude they had was unacceptable though. I wasn't pulling one at a time and frequently pulled up until we reached a barrier. Regardless of if you want me to go faster/slower, it's not hard to be respectful.

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How was the Samurai pulling more if you were going up to the barrier? If they were aggroing stuff before you, then just pull it off them and keep going.

There were like two times I thought we hit the barrier but didn’t (hadn’t ran that dungeon in awhile and got it in roulette). Normally I don’t even bother saying anything when someone pulls more but their attitude just really rubbed me the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

There were like two times I thought we hit the barrier but didn’t (hadn’t ran that dungeon in awhile and got it in roulette). Normally I don’t even bother saying anything when someone pulls more but their attitude just really rubbed me the wrong way.

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Given that they were actually pulling for you those few, this is still one of those scenarios where you just have to deal with it and take the mobs off them. It's that occasional one person you have to deal with for that instance then probably never encounter again.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

There were like two times I thought we hit the barrier but didn’t (hadn’t ran that dungeon in awhile and got it in roulette). Normally I don’t even bother saying anything when someone pulls more but their attitude just really rubbed me the wrong way.

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Why get upset? My previous Raid Leader gave me crap at times and I responded playing harder back, or older times of games people literally used profanity to get your backside moving. Need to chill out and just do the pull till you can no longer continue, anything below SHBs is designed with old tool kits in mind, DPS/Tanks/Healers got way more tools compared against old days, it's super easy mode.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

I wasn't pulling one at a time and frequently pulled up until we reached a barrier.

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Then there's no way for the Samurai to have arrived there first without you having failed to use Sprint (or having used it only after engaging, instead of doubling its duration by using it just before the initial pull).

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Regardless of if you want me to go faster/slower, it's not hard to be respectful.

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The level of respect typically considered to be owed will depend on how irregular the situation is and what its most likely explanations are.

You're no Sprout. You must have done at least 20 levels on DRK already to do Arboretum (Hard), and clearly at least some 70 levels of MSQ dungeons. By that point, most would assume that you are plenty aware of both how much and how to pull. Falling short in either regard would seem more likely to indicate a lack of concern for your role/party than mere ignorance.

While that doesn't give license for rude speech, had the Samurai asked simply that you then please do your job, they wouldn't likely be in the wrong.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

There were like two times I thought we hit the barrier but didn’t (hadn’t ran that dungeon in awhile and got it in roulette). Normally I don’t even bother saying anything when someone pulls more but their attitude just really rubbed me the wrong way.

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The only area with apparent barriers that don't require one to kill all the mobs is the bee hallway, for which the norm is to skip the mobs (as they no longer give EXP) and just nuke the wall before fleeing into the boss room. If that was the only time this came to issue, then it's more understandable that you wouldn't know, but you may want to more closely follow the lead of those who do, even if they may be rude about it.

I’m still new to tanking duties. 60 Paladin, 50 war and 70 gnb. However, I try to wall to wall with a few exceptions. I only half pull the first pull in dungeons below 45 anymore just to gauge the healer a bit. You tend to wipe if you don’t. Tanks don’t have much of a self sustain kit below 50 so it is just wise. Arboretum Hard shouldn’t have been one of those cases. As dps, I see single pullers all the time in low roulettes. I just grin and bear it. No big deal and they usually speed up eventually.

A lot of tanks in low level roulettes were obviously from WoW and they tend to do the single pack method as that is how the game was designed.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

I’m still new to tanking duties. 60 Paladin, 50 war and 70 gnb. However, I try to wall to wall with a few exceptions. I only half pull the first pull in dungeons below 45 anymore just to gauge the healer a bit. You tend to wipe if you don’t. Tanks don’t have much of a self sustain kit below 50 so it is just wise.

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Certain dungeons it's the case, some are not, the dungeons below 50 do not really have walls. The 1st wall restrictions came in Wanderers Palace and Ampador Keep 2.0, because players were cheesing it by sleeping before 1st boss in WP, or tank pulls all mobs in 2nd pull of WP and locks them all out of 2nd boss, or dies on ultra pull then rez them to skip all the mobs in AK. The only dungeons that's a danger to wall pull is Bardams Mettle 1st/2nd pull, Tower of Zot final pulls, and Vanaspati before 2nd boss pull, unless you go Warrior ignore this.

Technically you can do it all on the dungeons below 50, sleep skip, or die at boss then rez.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Certain dungeons it's the case, some are not, the dungeons below 50 do not really have walls. The 1st wall restrictions came in Wanderers Palace and Ampador Keep 2.0, because players were cheesing it by sleeping before 1st boss in WP, or tank pulls all mobs in 2nd pull of WP and locks them all out of 2nd boss, or dies on ultra pull then rez them to skip all the mobs in AK. The only dungeons that's a danger to wall pull is Bardams Mettle 1st/2nd pull, Tower of Zot final pulls, and Vanaspati before 2nd boss pull, unless you go Warrior ignore this.

Technically you can do it all on the dungeons below 50, sleep skip, or die at boss then rez.

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That pull between the second and third boss in Brayflox’s Longstop seems to wreck me every time. Not sure why either. It doesn’t seem to matter what I or the healer do, if I pull it all, it is death. I’m sure I’m missing something with that one because it seems far worse than it should be.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

A lot of tanks in low level roulettes were obviously from WoW and they tend to do the single pack method as that is how the game was designed.

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Maybe back in 2008 yes, not anymore, unless you are doing a specific mythic dungeon with a specific pack or a specific affix, i can tell you that wall to wall pull is mandatory on wow.

it just takes time to get used to tanking. as we just cleared al mhigo i said you did a pretty good job

If there is a question or you feel uneasy on new content... Just start the runs with a test w2w pull or ask what the comfort level of your healer is. It’s all out in the open and no one has a reason to be butt hurt.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

Maybe back in 2008 yes, not anymore, unless you are doing a specific mythic dungeon with a specific pack or a specific affix, i can tell you that wall to wall pull is mandatory on wow.

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Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but I don’t recall that being common in WoD and before for most dungeons unless you were heavily overgeared. Yeah, Legion onward it became pretty standard practice at pretty much all levels of gear. I haven’t played retail since relatively early BFA though so all a blur these days. Like yeah, I used to be able to pull all the way to Marrowgar no issue in 10 man ICC, but that was after getting decked in mostly Heroic 25 man gear.

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Originally Posted by Roflcopter

Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but I don’t recall that being common in WoD and before for most dungeons unless you were heavily overgeared. Yeah, Legion onward it became pretty standard practice at pretty much all levels of gear. I haven’t played retail since relatively early BFA though so all a blur these days. Like yeah, I used to be able to pull all the way to Marrowgar no issue in 10 man ICC, but that was after getting decked in mostly Heroic 25 man gear.

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At WoD, pal and dk were god to keep themself alive, at any ilvl so, imagine with a healer.

atm, any tank can w2w.
You can even pull room + boss in some mythic + dungeon (not in high key ofc but still doable at +15 or +16)

I w2w regardless unless I can tell the healer is inexperienced/struggling on the first pulls, even still I get some df groups with dps/healers trying to run ahead and it makes me itch a little, but I let them take the first few smacks before peeling as a form of mitigation. :D

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Originally Posted by Marxel

how do you tank mains go about dealing with it?

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Tell them: You pull it, you tank it.
And let them die. They'll get the memo.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Tell them: You pull it, you tank it.
And let them die. They'll get the memo.

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No, don't do this, tanks do not rule the duty.

I will gladly vote kick any tank who tries this, it's griefing, everyone is easily replaceable.

Edit: This is considered a meme actually, anyone who pulls this gets a trash talking, specially from TalesFromDF Reddit.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Tell them: You pull it, you tank it.
And let them die. They'll get the memo.

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Yikes

Awful tanking advice, something id imagine hearing from burger king

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Tell them: You pull it, you tank it.
And let them die. They'll get the memo.

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Sure. Seems like a lovely way to get a report and a ban from me. FYI, pulling more mobs onto the tank would be deemed a playstyle choice (that is always wanting to pull wall to wall) much like how it excuses a no dps healer, cure 1/other healer equivalent spammer in lv90 content, dps single targeting on AOE packs or freestyle playing (that is basically both ignoring your classes inbuilt mechanics and combo/proper rotations (as in pressing your chained 1,2,3 which is at a minimum basic competency for your job, any job), since those all can be considered as 'personal playstyles' as far as reporting and the TOS goes. But pulling a YPYT (you pull you tank) or refusing to heal someone who pissed you is deemed aiding the enemy (things such as not doing your role, that is tank taking and maintaining threat, healer healing, dps at least doing a single dps attack regularly), along with things like MPK (monster player kill) are considered aiding the enemy cause it brings harm to your fellow teammates from mobs caused by direct, intentional action by a someone (obviously accidents and mistakes happen and that's a different case entirely.) So, enjoy your report and perhaps ban or warning if I was in a party and you pulled something like that. :)

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Tell them: You pull it, you tank it.
And let them die. They'll get the memo.

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Only trash does that.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

Just got out of Saint Mocianne’s Arboretum (Hard) as DRK. Pulled roughly two mobs at a time and at one point a SAM ran ahead and started fighting another mob while I and the team were still dealing with my current pull. I responded “Don’t pull ahead of me, please”. Their response? “Then pull like a man.” I explained I’m not a tank main and going at a pace I’m comfortable with and to not be a dick. They responded “Don’t make me laugh”.
The last boss they and the rest of the team died to failed mechanics but I managed to solo the boss from about 40%. It felt good, but my mood’s been soured from this toxic DPS. Is their behavior reportable? If not, how do you tank mains go about dealing with it?

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There is no point in telling them, but act instead.

As a tank, you just take aggro for the ones you have pull and stop AoE, they will just die and complain that you don't hold aggro.

But denial is powerful for you as well as for that dissident Dps, let the pull and die, if no one taps, the mob will simply reset. When he gets tired of dying, he'll either quit or complain and you won't respond.

You are the tank, you decide. If the heal wants to heal it, well, let him heal it, you take less, they want to be a pain in the ass, be a bigger pain in the ass than they are.

It's sad, but it's the only thing that works with some people.


Since complaining too much these days rhymes with being moderated fairly or abusively with the new SE rules.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

There is no point in telling them, but act instead.

As a tank, you just take aggro for the ones you have pull and stop AoE, they will just die and complain that you don't hold aggro.

But denial is powerful for you as well as for that dissident Dps, let the pull and die, if no one taps, the mob will simply reset. When he gets tired of dying, he'll either quit or complain and you won't respond.

You are the tank, you decide. If the heal wants to heal it, well, let him heal it, you take less, they want to be a pain in the ass, be a bigger pain in the ass than they are.

It's sad, but it's the only thing that works with some people.


Since complaining too much these days rhymes with being moderated fairly or abusively with the new SE rules.

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Damn i should've expected bad advice to come up here, but cmon
"You pull - you tank" is far, far worse situation than "oh noes dps pulled in front of me"

Since when do tanks decide to not do their job? If you are at least half decent of a player, dps shouldnt be even getting in front of you in dungeons. If someone went ahead, you just pull off from them, it literally hurts no one, and especially not you. If you can't be bothered to press one aoe skill, and you let someone die out of spite for something like that, you are being dead weight for the group, not them. It's pretty much griefing.

Tanks do not set the pace, and they dont decide who dies or not. Entire party sets the pace, curb your sense of importance

Here's the takeaway.

Tanks don't have a pull monopoly, you're playing with others and. I still can't believe I have to say this. RESPECT EACH OTHER'S TIME!

Also, you're a level 90 healer, did you get that far keeping your eyes closed? Did you not learn a thing when you healed wall to walls? Stop whining and actually play the game, you might improve instead of spouting nonsense like you're not comfortable, you had at least 40 levels to get comfortable.

As you can already tell, that type of mentality isn't very popular in this game or on these forums. I used to feel the same way when I first started tanking, but learned to just suck it up and give it a go. Usually it works out well once you get a good feel for your tank job. To this day, the only job I still get a little bit nervous about pulling W2W in higher level dungeons with is DRK. The other three it's normally a piece of cake as long as the healer is halfway decent.

If you're genuinely inexperienced at tanking and are worried about tagging mobs properly or surviving a bigger pull, it's best to be upfront about that at the start of the run. I've seen a few tanks do this in levelling dungeons, and your team would absolutely love to support you. Most arguments arise out of a mismatch in expectations.

But if you silently pause at the start of every corridor to deeply analyze mob movement patterns, and then go for janky s-stutter pulls, your entire party is going to immediately recognize that you have no idea what you're doing and will silently try to teach you how to pull the instance. In fact, if there actually was an option to swap around jobs at the start of an instance, most people would be even be happy to teach you how to tank it.

If you see this happening, put the attitude away and fix your play. If you think that you're tanking an instance and your team is always ahead of you, it's cuz you ain't.

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Originally Posted by Marxel

[snipping multiple quotes]

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It is not reportable. You can try, but someone other than the tank pulling is not a reportable offense.

What can be reportable is you not grabbing the mobs off of the Samurai. Not "doing your job" in that instance is considered griefing.

This is the reality of tanking in FF14: you are just there to hold the mobs. So if someone else other than you pulls it is your responsibility to grab the mobs, establish and maintain hate, and make the attempt to stay alive.

Tanks (like healers) are custodial roles. A tank's responsibility is to establish and maintain a safe-as-possible environment for the DPS to deal damage. DPS are the main drivers. DPS dictate the pace.

"DPS dictate the pace."

Tell that to all the DPS that start whining if the tank is going too fast. No self-respecting tank is going to slow down because of this.

That aside, the tank jobs have strong enough AoE that half the time they probably don't even need help from the DPS, and two of them don't need a healer anymore. Speaking purely in terms of dungeons, of course.

Every role in a dungeon is of equal importance. Without healers the DPS will bite it, without DPS the run will take needlessly long, and without a tank ... well, honestly, you can do most dungeons without a tank if you have a very tolerant healer and use feint on tankbusters. By that same token having a WAR or PLD tank eliminates the need for a healer for the most part, and any run can be done without DPS if you really want to.

Tl;dr: everyone is equally replaceable, and attempting to downplay the importance of one role to prop another one up is a bit silly.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

"DPS dictate the pace."

Tell that to all the DPS that start whining if the tank is going too fast. No self-respecting tank is going to slow down because of this.

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Who even does that???? Never once in my entire life of 14 never seen. Or did you meet the meme dude who says they're not interested in speed runs?

Yeah, I'm literally on the meme casual RP datacenter and have never seen anything like that.

I was helping my brother try out healing, so I did a few dungeons where I wasn't doing wall to wall, so he could get used to it, and to be fair 99% of the time people are absolutely fine. But every now and then you get the odd entitled DPS that think they set the pace.

I told them "If you pull, you keep". When they die, il pick up the pack. They usually stop or rage quit. Lol

But seriously, just type in chat at the start of the dungeon that you are new and that you will take it slowly, people are generally very understanding and happy to oblige that way :)

Edit: and before anyone says 'do your job properly', I am, I am pulling within the capabilities of my healer to avoid party wipes. If a dps decided to break away from the rest of the party to get aggro on a mob, that's their agenda. I'm not going to tell them how to play. But I will tell them that their are consequences, as a dps, in breaking from the party in order to pull mobs.

Ideally you should try to go faster where you feel like you can, but if they just run ahead and do that shit without at least asking "hey can you pull more?" then yeah, they're an asshole. Unfortunately there's nothing you can really do except blacklist them because it's not really something you can report them for, and even if you pull an "oops I accidentally turned off tank stance", the healer will probably adjust to that instead of allowing the asshole to die.

DPS really are spoilt little brats, honestly. You really don't have an obligation to "respect their time".

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

DPS really are spoilt little brats, honestly. You really don't have an obligation to "respect their time".

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Should respect everyone's time than forcing everyone to go slow for your "Tankxiety/Healxiety", 90-95% of players don't want to spend 30-40 mins clearing a dungeon, when you could easily do it in 15-20 mins if you put some effort. Healers/Tanks have obtained so much baby feeding, it's a literal pathetic excuse. Why is it 14 has turned into "It's my play style"? Back in the older days of games if you didn't perform what people wanted, you were out right away... At least solid raid groups continue this.

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Originally Posted by DarkDredgen

Edit: and before anyone says 'do your job properly', I am, I am pulling within the capabilities of my healer to avoid party wipes. If a dps decided to break away from the rest of the party to get aggro on a mob, that's their agenda. I'm not going to tell them how to play. But I will tell them that their are consequences, as a dps, in breaking from the party in order to pull mobs.

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No you aren't. By refusing to take mobs off the DPS you actively aren't doing your job. If your healer friend isn't yet comfortable with healing, don't queue into healer level dungeons and force the DPS to comply. What you're essentially doing is demanding the DPS conform and you've ensured anyone who steps out of line can be easily kicked.