FF14 has a quantity problem

I'm tired of the team's unrelenting focus on quality above all else, to the point where so much of the budget is spent on squeezing that last bit of perfection out with diminishing returns. The fact that they promised to invest more into FF14 doesn't excite me at all when I feel that they are just going to pour more and more into the "Final Fantasy" part of the equation rather than the MMO part of the game. Or, even for the latter, more of the budget is going to be spent on making awesome scenes like riding on a whale or flying through Pagl'than, both of which are cool the first time but quickly lose their flavor, rather than actual gameplay.

I hope this game will expand the amount of content that it offers, because ShB felt like it offered almost nothing. Systems like New Game+ are not content, they are systems that recycle existing content. This game's quality is already pretty good and I honestly don't have many complaints with the game. But this game is not something you can even play for more than a week each patch. 6.05 barely lasted a week, for example.

They really should start thinking about quantity, and not just quality. I completely disagree with their blind focus on quality above all else. It takes more and more budget to increase quality past a certain point that could be way better utilized for quantity.

This is likely bait, but given there's a some amount of validity to the claims based on the point of view of a segment of players, I'll bite.


You're not going to change a Japanese company's pursuit of perfection. Their entire work culture is based on just that; constant pursuit of perfection, or as they consider it "sufficiently good".

I find more than enough to do in the game to keep me regularly engaged with it through out expansion cycles. If you happen to finish the content you wish to do quickly, then that's on you. There's nothing wrong with only wanting to do certain limited quantity content, but that in no way means the game itself doesn't have enough content overall. What's there is just stuff you don't prefer and from what you've said, choose to not engage with.

Please, come and play the stuff you enjoy. Once you're done with that why not do other things/play other games and return when there's more of what you like here?

I both agree and disagree, really.

I agree on the premise that in some areas of the game they focus a lot on the quality which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when the said content is treated as what would effectively be a 1-off experience then it can be a bit of a flaw.

The part I disagree on is just the quantity, I don't think the game should focus on quantity too much as it will inevitably come at an expense to the quality in certain other areas of the content, this will lead to a lot of content which doesn't really have the substance that it should, and would possibly just end up being 1-off experiences. The main issue they have and should work on going forward is the replay-value of the content they already do have, in addition to the systems too.

To draw some examples:

Why is it that a system like Faux Hollows effectively get reduced to a time-locked piece of content that ultimately just forms part of the weekly roulette scheme, something like this ideally should be expanded and adopted more widely across content with more rewards, not necessarily new ones, but alternate avenues for already existing items. E.g. Copycat Bulb. This is where the material coffers from Grand Company really excel. They could also tie in gear related rewards which could be gated (arguably only gear should be), which would give a larger scope of content that people can engage in to get gear. If you incentivise the content enough then people will naturally be drawn to said content. Faux Hollows could be so good if it wasn't a weekly reward/obligation, or if it were expanded to all the trials, and potentially raids, dungeons.

Another area is the achievement points. Honestly, this is a system that is practically abandoned that shouldn't be. They effectively only used it to shaft older veteran rewards to. Expand on the rewards in this area, significantly so and people will be inclined to dabble in a much more varied content, especially if the rewards are good and expensive. For example, I'm sat on an excess of 301 points, and I have absolutely nothing to use them for.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

I find more than enough to do in the game to keep me regularly engaged with it through out expansion cycles. If you happen to finish the content you wish to do quickly, then that's on you. There's nothing wrong with only wanting to do certain limited quantity content, but that in no way means the game itself doesn't have enough content overall. What's there is just stuff you don't prefer and from what you've said, choose to not engage with.

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I've probably engaged with way more of the content than most of you. I've done every single raid, soloed HoH, got t100 in ranked Feast, do hunts, used to spawn hunts for a while, used to craft a ton, crafted for the world second team this Savage tier, did Delubrum Savage on patch, etc.

A lot of those activities just don't take much time. About the only activity that took me significant time was t100 in ranked Feast (500 games) and Ultimates, which are like ~50 hours. HoH solo took me <20 hours to prog and clear. Delubrum Savage took me 10 hours, etc.

So when I see people making this same argument over and over again, I have to wonder what exactly they think is content. Probably the grinds, which IMO in no way constitute as "content". Doing A-ranks 3000 times is not "content".

I see so many redundant, underdeveloped, and abandoned systems in FF that I just can't take this quantity/quality oversimplification seriously.

Plus, I would argue one of the most fundamental things to FFXIV, which are job fantasies, would be both more homogenized and less distinct if we took that approach to job design philosophy and implemented every half-baked idea players propose on these forums. The current job roster, if only aesthetically, shows off how good XIV's design is when it is focused and polished.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

I both agree and disagree, really.

I agree on the premise that in some areas of the game they focus a lot on the quality which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when the said content is treated as what would effectively be a 1-off experience then it can be a bit of a flaw.

The part I disagree on is just the quantity, I don't think the game should focus on quantity too much as it will inevitably come at an expense to the quality in certain other areas of the content, this will lead to a lot of content which doesn't really have the substance that it should, and would possibly just end up being 1-off experiences. The main issue they have and should work on going forward is the replay-value of the content they already do have, in addition to the systems too.

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If they actually significantly revamp how the gameplay works in this game, I can definitely concur with that. Unfortunately jobs have been dumbed down so much that replayability in most content is just non-existent and the way they add replayability is often through pure tedium and grinds. I do not consider stuff like killing 3000 A-ranks as good examples of replayability.

Bozja actually had very solid replayability because the Lost actions actually significantly changed how a lot of jobs worked, and in particular it made Warrior one of the most complex jobs if you wanted to maximize its output due to Blood Rage. That's the kind of replayability I can get behind, allowing players to experiment with new stuff.

Pure grinds simply don't entice me no matter the incentives and I've not done any content for the rewards in a long time: Ultimate weapons are ugly, PvP ranked rewards are ugly, I don't care about mounts or minions, I don't care about getting BiS beyond speedrunning, etc. I do content for itself. Sadly it feels like a lot of FF14 players feel differently. I don't understand how people can say that FATEs have become so good in ShB/EW, when it's literally the same type of content, just with an insane grind checklist now. I feel like a lot of players in this game will praise a piece of content even if it's dogshit, so long as the incentives/reward behind that content are great.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I see so many redundant, underdeveloped, and abandoned systems in FF that I just can't take this quantity/quality oversimplification seriously.

Plus, I would argue one of the most fundamental things to FFXIV, which are job fantasies, would be both more homogenized and less distinct if we took that approach to job design philosophy and implemented every half-baked idea players propose on these forums. The current job roster, if only aesthetically, shows off how good XIV's design is when it is focused and polished.

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Good thing I never said I wanted more systems. I don't mind getting more of the same: 6 Savage raids each tier, more alliance raids each expansion, more dungeons etc.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

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I don't think job simplicity really would hinder their ability to actually make replay-able content. In many circumstances they've already had the foundations for it in long abandoned pieces of content, some of them being related to the creativity of the content itself - One of the areas I'd really draw scope here that relates to myself is probably crafting. It's been a dumbed down system, and yet for all its flaws they did show that they could incorporate something fairly interesting, fundamentally (with experts), it just had some really weird execution in that all conditions were beneficial as opposed to detrimental. - I don't really consider that extent of a grind to have some replay value. - All I can really look towards in this direction with Deep Dungeons. It's a fairly simple system that just creeps with difficulty on each subsequent flaw. - Now I would argue this could be improved if they were to not really limit the floor count, but to essentially have the floors much less limited, perhaps 400, 500. They could borrow many mechanics from already pre-existing extreme or savage counters.

Now with this second point I really would be interested to hear your response in that.. What if lost actions and essences weren't necessarily just limited either to Bozja/Eureka. What if this were expanded and introduced with areas such as deep dungeon? They already have the foundations in the game for both of the systems, which in reality by your own admission already effectively addresses the job simplicities you took issue with. The simplicity is only as inhibiting as the creativity of the people creating systems, really. Personally, I wish content like deep dungeon or even Eureka/Bozja would be more akin to something like Dungeoneering from Runescape, where it'd effectively draw from multiple other areas of the game such as fishing for a key or crafting for an item.

The FATEs themselves haven't gotten better, really. But the incentivisation on them has improved significantly, courtesy of the gemstones system, which should also be expanded on. Grinds for better or worse are considered as content, it just depends how superfluous those grinds are as to whether it is detrimental. I don't think the game is quite there yet. They are necessary in some shape or form, especially for subscription based MMOs. For better or worse development time is always a limiting aspect, especially for content and creativity. So you more often than not need to lean on grinding-related activities to keep people enticed.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Now with this second point I really would be interested to hear your response in that.. What if lost actions and essences weren't necessarily just limited either to Bozja/Eureka. What if this were expanded and introduced with areas such as deep dungeon? They already have the foundations in the game for both of the systems, which in reality by your own admission already effectively addresses the job simplicities you took issue with. The simplicity is only as inhibiting as the creativity of the people creating systems, really. Personally, I wish content like deep dungeon or even Eureka/Bozja would be more akin to something like Dungeoneering from Runescape, where it'd effectively draw from multiple other areas of the game such as fishing for a key or crafting for an item.

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I'd be all for this, this would massively increase playability. I hope this is the direction they go for the next deep dungeon and relic zone. Eureka/Lost actions have been one of the best additions to side content in this game in a long while. BLU has also been a great piece of side content, and I'm looking forward to a BLU DF.

People can't even tell anymore...

Funny. To me it seems that quality is constantly dropping on. Less gear sets, ear and tail holes not being made anymore, an example

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

People can't even tell anymore...

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I don't think it would even matter if they could as they seem more interested in finding a hill to die on and being right on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Funny. To me it seems that quality is constantly dropping on. Less gear sets, ear and tail holes not being made anymore, an example

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Yeah, I wouldn't know because I usually just use the same 2-3 glams on a generic human. But definitely good point.

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Originally Posted by DBriggs304

People can't even tell anymore...

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That this is Ativan? The wording is kind of bait-ey but I happen to agree that there’s not a lot of good quality content for people who actually do want to waste time. Just some grinds that recycle tedious tasks over and over again. There’s plenty of quality content that’s basically good for one play through. The MSQ is fantastic but I’m not really inclined to play it again… I wish they put some of that effort into content with more replayability value.

They even cut and nerfed the giant time sinks like omitting an SHB deep dungeon and drastically reducing completion time for Bozja vs Eureka. I’m happy some things are practical, but there should also be significant things to do for people with the time to waste that are not simple achievements like kill 3,000 A ranks…

It’s possible a lot of people unsub from the game after the MSQ not because that’s what they would prefer to do, as people like to imply, but because they deem there isn’t enough quality content after the MSQ worth doing, so they move on until the next major patch. So by introducing more effort into engaging activities they could turn some of those temporary subs into more permanent ones, and make more money.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I've probably engaged with way more of the content than most of you. I've done every single raid, soloed HoH, got t100 in ranked Feast, do hunts, used to spawn hunts for a while, used to craft a ton, crafted for the world second team this Savage tier, did Delubrum Savage on patch, etc.

A lot of those activities just don't take much time. About the only activity that took me significant time was t100 in ranked Feast (500 games) and Ultimates, which are like ~50 hours. HoH solo took me <20 hours to prog and clear. Delubrum Savage took me 10 hours, etc.

So when I see people making this same argument over and over again, I have to wonder what exactly they think is content. Probably the grinds, which IMO in no way constitute as "content". Doing A-ranks 3000 times is not "content".

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I have a friend who does everything MINE (minimum item level no echo) and been playing longer than me and still haven't reached the end of ShB. Or when he sees a party in PF that does something "prog" he joins to help them. We met many good folks this way through him.

We also have people who haven't reached 60 yet at the Gridania bench, and they don't rush it cause we just sit there and talk for hours... I met plenty who do enjoy the MMO part of the MMO, but I also met people who just don't engage in any open world or party instanced chat activity at all.

What any game can offer is always limited, this is true. You cannot really do much about that unfortunately. But the way you play the game is your choice. Many game developers see how people play their games and invent based on that. Like how ARAM became a thing in League of legends because of personalized map rules or how Trial maps became famous back in UT2k4. Or how the Half Life multi player version gave life to CoD. Or how a warcraft mod gave life to Dota... these were all things invented by players because they wanted the "something else" that you might also seek.

There is no game in this world that is perfect, people will seek things to do even if they are limited by the game they play :D

But, at the end if you are unhappy, I highly encourage you to try out other games, there are some nice titles coming out these days.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I'm tired of the team's unrelenting focus on quality above all else, to the point where so much of the budget is spent on squeezing that last bit of perfection out with diminishing returns. The fact that they promised to invest more into FF14 doesn't excite me at all when I feel that they are just going to pour more and more into the "Final Fantasy" part of the equation rather than the MMO part of the game. Or, even for the latter, more of the budget is going to be spent on making awesome scenes like riding on a whale or flying through Pagl'than, both of which are cool the first time but quickly lose their flavor, rather than actual gameplay.

I hope this game will expand the amount of content that it offers, because ShB felt like it offered almost nothing. Systems like New Game+ are not content, they are systems that recycle existing content. This game's quality is already pretty good and I honestly don't have many complaints with the game. But this game is not something you can even play for more than a week each patch. 6.05 barely lasted a week, for example.

They really should start thinking about quantity, and not just quality. I completely disagree with their blind focus on quality above all else. It takes more and more budget to increase quality past a certain point that could be way better utilized for quantity.

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Is this satire or is this serious?

I am legitimately unsure.

Honestly, I don’t completely disagree with the op. I adored Shadowbringers and Endwalker, but they didn’t really work in the direction of solving the Themepark subgenre’s problem of disposable content.

I think the greatest strides they made during Shadowbringers in an attempt to solve this problem were in Bozja, and I’m genuinely looking forward to seeing if or how they expand on the concept in the future. That doesn’t mean Bozja was perfect, but I enjoy how even now it’s still a reliable option for leveling alts and just relaxing instead of focusing on dungeons.

Where is the quality recently though? Job design is in shambles, no new content outside of your regular stuff expected from a new expansion, viera and hrothgar suffering as always. There's no quality no quantity right now in the game so idk what are you talking about lol.

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Originally Posted by Theox

Where is the quality recently though? Job design is in shambles, no new content outside of your regular stuff expected from a new expansion, viera and hrothgar suffering as always. There's no quality no quantity right now in the game so idk what are you talking about lol.

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I mean, I do think the EW MSQ quality is astoundingly high. But the fact that they decided to push it back two weeks to absolutely polish the MSQ (which could also just be a lie to buy them time to figure out server infrastructure) speaks volumes of their overzealous pursuit of perfection to the detriment of efficiency.

OP, your statements sound like when I get into an argument with myself. Lucky for me, most people don't get to witness that. But what you're saying is like telling a bakery to stop putting so much effort into their signature soufflés to churn out more donuts. It reeks of desire for instant gratification. I think this dev team has done more than their share of compromise to meet players in the middle who can't play a game that progresses like molasses. ARR and EW are nearly night and day in this regard, but the devs still value quality and it is something of great significance that separates this game from other mmos on the market.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I mean, I do think the EW MSQ quality is astoundingly high. But the fact that they decided to push it back two weeks to absolutely polish the MSQ (which could also just be a lie to buy them time to figure out server infrastructure) speaks volumes of their overzealous pursuit of perfection to the detriment of efficiency.

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This is not a single player game though. I do get that it's story-driven, but money and time spent on unique animation for one cut-scene in the game could be used elsewhere. I much rather prefer your regular nods in cutscenes if it means we're actually getting some meaningful quality gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Theox

This is not a single player game though. I do get that it's story-driven, but money and time spent on unique animation for one cut-scene in the game could be used elsewhere. I much rather prefer your regular nods in cutscenes if it means we're actually getting some meaningful quality gameplay.

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I definitely agree. The budget to create stuff like custom animations for eating hamburgers could have been spent elsewhere.

I'm sorry but the game doesn't have enough content overall and that is just a fact ...idk why people are defending this company so much

Sure if you are a new player you have a tone of content to do but for a regular player who have been playing this game for years now its misery.

I don't know about that. There are a lot of things to do, you're just not interested in doing them.

I'm working on getting the Big Fish title during the days I'm not raiding or gathering/crafting.

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

Sure if you are a new player you have a tone of content to do but for a regular player who have been playing this game for years now its misery.

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Only if you let it be. I'm going into my 8th year and I'm not miserable at all.

Been playing since ff14 1.0 (beta) and I still enjoy my time with FF14. Sure I am not subbed 100% of the time and have phases where I concentrate more on my job or other games. But that is the majority of players.
The people who play 1 game religiously do all the content they can in the shortest amount of time is a very minor part of each mmo community. And while it sucks for that part of the community it is definitely not the focus when it comes to production planning.
As someone who works in game dev myself I can't tell you how happy I am about the FF14 team's approach to development. It's a quick enough pace to keep things fresh but not quick enough all the content they introduce feels rushed an unfinished.
Obviously that doesn't mean that I agree with all the design decisions but that is okay.

Ff14 is a very front-loaded game, it feels like there’s a tonne to do (and there is) but by the time you reach max level on all jobs you find there is a very small endgame and that it’s usually just about grinding for glamor, endlessly crafting to make Gil on the MB (which has no real in game value), rp and housing - and it’s not really about character progression and power gain.

At this point I would say it doesn’t really have a defined focus - many mmos focus on endgame power gain and grind, ff14 has several things - how interesting it is depends on your definition of content.

You do see a lot of ebb and flow in the signed on population, like shortly after launch of an expac, FCs have many people playing, but as time goes on, they get quieter and quieter.

I think personally the game needs more battle content loops with unique rewards and a reason to do them (like a feeling of character progression and noticeable power increase) - luckily I can do M+, but it would be nice to have something similar here…

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Originally Posted by Waterscape

I'm sorry but the game doesn't have enough content overall and that is just a fact ...idk why people are defending this company so much

Sure if you are a new player you have a tone of content to do but for a regular player who have been playing this game for years now its misery.

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Not having enough content that interests you is not the same as not having enough content. I honestly don't know how someone could possibly do everything this game has to offer, and still have any kind of meaningful life outside the game. This is already the case for people who devote the majority of their time into a smidgen of the game's content, let alone all of it.

If your experience in the game is self-described as a "misery", why are you even still playing it? Contrary to popular belief, masochism isn't a badge of honor. It's a weakness.

Misery. Misery. Misery. Amount of content in a game causes you misery.

Surely a person who writes like this is just stating, uhh, facts, yeah.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I'm tired of the team's unrelenting focus on quality above all else, to the point where so much of the budget is spent on squeezing that last bit of perfection out with diminishing returns. The fact that they promised to invest more into FF14 doesn't excite me at all when I feel that they are just going to pour more and more into the "Final Fantasy" part of the equation rather than the MMO part of the game. Or, even for the latter, more of the budget is going to be spent on making awesome scenes like riding on a whale or flying through Pagl'than, both of which are cool the first time but quickly lose their flavor, rather than actual gameplay.

I hope this game will expand the amount of content that it offers, because ShB felt like it offered almost nothing. Systems like New Game+ are not content, they are systems that recycle existing content. This game's quality is already pretty good and I honestly don't have many complaints with the game. But this game is not something you can even play for more than a week each patch. 6.05 barely lasted a week, for example.

They really should start thinking about quantity, and not just quality. I completely disagree with their blind focus on quality above all else. It takes more and more budget to increase quality past a certain point that could be way better utilized for quantity.

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Yeah... this game is a fanservice simulator already!

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I don't know about that. There are a lot of things to do, you're just not interested in doing them.

I'm working on getting the Big Fish title during the days I'm not raiding or gathering/crafting.

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I've tried them all already. I've even given Verminion a real shot.