Why do people stop doing the MSQ roulette once they get all their jobs to 90?

Same with people who stop doing ocean fishing once they get their World-Class Troller title
or people who stop doing potd when they get their Necromancer title

Isn't this sort of content (roulettes, side content, deep dungeons) supposed to be insanely fun and done only for the sake of playing the game? Why do people stop doing it once they get their rewards?
Only place I've ever seen this behavior was in looter shooter games like Warframe and Destiny and wow and it is a pervasive problem of content not being future proofed.

Same goes for bozja and eureka, I believe castrum lacus litore died on the same patch it was released and required multiple buffs over the course of 5.x patches to make it populated, and same goes for delubrum reginae savage, which was dead 1 week after its release.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/JSuey...giphy.gif&ct=g

People get bored of the content and move on? Doing roulettes, Eureka, Bozja every single day can lead to a burnout. I personally like doing them, heck I have an embarrassing amount of hours, but both Eureka + Bozja is a huge timesink and investment that not everyone wants to commit to.

And idk, it's less populated for Bozja but I wouldn't say dead entirely

It's normal for people to stop doing things once they've achieved the goal they're working toward. If I'm looking for a specific item from a dungeon I'll run that until I get what I want then move on to something else. It's a completely natural and acceptable behavior.

It can get boring doing the same content over and over again. I'm really enjoying this savage tier and looking forward to getting even more loot, but once you figure out all the mechanics, optimize your rotation, get your rewards, and beat it a few times, it's time to move onto something new.

Because in the end, moment-to-moment gameplay just isn't compelling enough to keep enough players coming back to content regularly.

Essentially the same as asking why the party stops once the kegs are dry.

I can only speak for myself but once I finished my goals in a piece of content, I will focus more of the limited playtime I have a day on my unfinished objectives.
Naturally I go back to „completed“ content here and there, but not as frequend like I did if I was still chasing something.

As for lack of future proofing I disagree to some level. I did the Dalradia instance with 3 people once, since you get insane buffs in those if only a few people join.
Not a perfect solution, but at least something.

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Originally Posted by Silica-chan

I can only speak for myself but once I finished my goals in a piece of content, I will focus more of the limited playtime I have a day on my unfinished objectives.
Naturally I go back to „completed“ content here and there, but not as frequend like I did if I was still chasing something.

As for lack of future proofing I disagree to some level. I did the Dalradia instance with 3 people once, since you get insane buffs in those if only a few people join.
Not a perfect solution, but at least something.

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is it really experiencing the content if you do it with a massive echo, completely nerfed and with a tiny amount of people or even solo?
I could understand it if all you cared about is the rewards for doing that content, but is that really the kind of mentality we, as the FFXIV community, want to foster among our players?
rewards oriented gameplay has destroyed many promising games, and many of them not even MMOs

Buddy, I don't mean to be rude, but while Roulettes are there to help players get through manually queued content (for story, side quest, whatever), no one is really owed others doing a roulette. MSQ Roulette is painful to do (less so Castrum then Praetorium) because it's mind numbingly boring. You sure as hell can bet that when I hit 90 on all classes I will probably never queue up for MSQ except in specific cases, those being when I'm doing with a friend who is doing it for levelling, or the rare occasion I make a friend who has yet to do it (or has yet to do it on an alt). Only exception would be the Moogle Treasure trove events, where I just run it daily once to accumulate tomes for the items I want. It's boring, it's dull, and the only reason 90% of the people do it is for the XP. Once that is gone, what rewards are left? Tome farming is done by spamming lv90 dungeons or other roulettes (for the non limited tomes). Cluster farming for materia is done by spamming levelling as an adventure in need. What other reason is there to queue up once the XP reward is not there anymore?

As for Eureka, Bozja, etc, once that gear becomes invalidated, cosmetics or helping a friend are the only reason people would head back there (Bozja is a little different cause its still a great place to level from lv71-80), and not enough people chase cosmetics for the content to be worth it. I would love the set of Elemental Amour for several of my classes from Eureka. Unfortunately not enough people doing that to make the grind even semi worth it. Doing content for the sake of fun and doing the content is only worth it when the content is fun in some way. Bozja, Eureka, and MSQ Roulette are not. They're either a time consuming event, or a mind-numbing grind. Now should be doing content that has no reward be the norm? Maybe, but if so, but it needs to be made fun if there are no rewards

Nothing is fun forever - its why TV-series have more than one episode, why you dont read the same book over and over again and why most people tend to play more than one videogame. Heck, its the reason I cook a different meal every day because yes, pizza is very tasty, but eating it every day doesnt make me happy.

I'm sure you're just trying to make some weird point about this content being "bad", but at least in my book thats not necessarily the case - if people wouldnt move on from content, there wouldnt have been a need for any expansion or patch whatsoever. The dungeons in ARR are supposed to be fun content after all - why did we need anything beyond Sastasha?

While I'm personally not a fan of Bozja (specially because the areas looked boring to me - I get why, but that doesnt make it anymore appealing), but I still spend quite a while with that content - probably a lot more time than I spent with a lot of (shorter) singleplayer-games these past few years. I dont see a problem with coming to the conclusion that the content was genuily fun for the first 15 hours, followed by a grind for the next 40 (numbers might not be accurate, I didnt track how long I spent with that content).

I dont expect a single piece of content, a single game or a single meal to sustain me forever - I'm not that unrealistic.

Honestly: My big hobby next to videogames is cross stitching, which involves me doing the same motions over and over again for hours. Often I dont even care much about what I stitch, because its just a nice thing to do while watching a netflix show. I still prefer doing different patterns instead of stitching the same thing over and over again - even though the stitching itself is fun for me, not the outcome. So you could argue "Why do you follow a pattern at all if the process itself is supposed to be fun?"

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

is it really experiencing the content if you do it with a massive echo, completely nerfed and with a tiny amount of people or even solo?
I could understand it if all you cared about is the rewards for doing that content, but is that really the kind of mentality we, as the FFXIV community, want to foster among our players?
rewards oriented gameplay has destroyed many promising games, and many of them not even MMOs

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I have always been goal oriented when playing games, whether that's clearing content or farming for triple triad cards. That's what I enjoy doing. It's not a less valid reason for playing than whatever you play this game for. Certainly not "destroying the game" but I appreciate the melodrama.

Nothing is fun forever.
Some things aren't fun to begin with.
Which seems to be OP's point.

Before I tackle the main argument of the thing I want to point out some flaws. Don’t mind me.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

…or people who stop doing potd when they get their Necromancer title

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See this one confused me. Most of your points seem to center around not having enough people doing content with others, but people going for the Necromancer title aren’t doing it with others. So your point?

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Isn't this sort of content (roulettes, side content, deep dungeons) supposed to be insanely fun and done only for the sake of playing the game? Why do people stop doing it once they get their rewards?

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Because playing the same game and the same content gets boring or mind-numbing after a certain point. If you don’t believe that then that’s fine. However, it’s not you to dictate what people find fun or how they should enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Only place I've ever seen this behavior was in looter shooter games like Warframe and Destiny and wow and it is a pervasive problem of content not being future proofed.

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… WOW is a looter shooter? Also all of those games take inspiration from MMOs, aside from WoW which is one and I can’t speak on its problems as I’ve not played it. But you’re looking at it backward. The issues those games have are because of the MMO roots. This game is an MMO, so those problems will likely persist. How they combat those problems is what’s different. At least from my understanding, at least you can still tackle old content in FFXIV unlike WoW if what my friends say is true.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Same goes for bozja and eureka … and same goes for delubrum reginae savage, which was dead 1 week after its release.

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Hard hard hard problems with this argument. Part of the problem with this content is the design also makes the content harder, if not impossible, to do with small groups. But then you go on to talk about how they were dead on content which is completely different. I can’t speak for DR savage because I know that it requires tons of people and co-ordinating that many is kind of hell, and part of that is that you need to get groups together for that and can’t just do it randomly. As for the others, once again people stopped doing them because enough people stopped finding incentive and those that did find incentive didn’t have enough people to pass the content.

However the largest flaw of your whole argument is you’re comparing all of these pieces of end level content to MSQ Roulette. Which is nothing like the content you use as an example. It’s braindead, not fun, you have to set aside a lot of time for it, and a lot of people do not find it rewarding enough outside of leveling to set aside the time required. And some of that time could be used doing the content you said above so why would you want them to do MSQ when they could be doing the others? None of your argument really helps you in the long run. And a lot of it is less on the players fault and more on the designers. Except POTD I don’t get your example there because the title you talk about is for soloing the content.

I don't know where you get this idea that my argument is that content is dead and there's not enough people doing it, that's not my problem with this sort of content.

I've seen thinly-veiled threads before but this is just a see-through shower curtain.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I don't know where you get this idea that my argument is that content is dead and there's not enough people doing it, that's not my problem with this sort of content.

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If “people aren’t playing the content” then what is your argument except to say it’s dead? That’s what that phrase translates to in MMOs.

this has got to be a troll thread

Some of those examples are pretty funny to me because when trying to level, msq roulette is literally the last spot i personally look at.

Bozja not being future proofed was something a lot of people pointed out very early and predictably it turned out exactly like that. Delubrum is especially problematic there because the number of people who queue for it at this point is super low and it hasnt properly been balanced for a low number of first timers. Now of course you could point out that nothing is stopping first timers from buying fragments and/or making a PF but I doubt it was intended for Delubrum to have a significantly higher barrier to clear now than it had when bozja was still populated. The breaking point is the one and only dps check in delubrum at the 4 queen's guard pieces.

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Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

If “people aren’t playing the content” then what is your argument except to say it’s dead? That’s what that phrase translates to in MMOs.

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my argument is and has always been: why design content that is boring then attempt to drive people to do it with rewards? why not make content that is fun by itself?
driving people by rewards always results in, well, people stop doing MSQ roulette once they hit 90 on all jobs

Why I don't do MSQ roulettes when I have all 90s? Or don't do ocean fishing after World-Class Troller? It's a very straightforward concept, really. I don't need poetics, and though they may add rewards for 5 and 10 million score LATER and anything earned now will count towards it, I have a better use for this time NOW, and can do these new scores LATER as well. It's just a matter of an efficient time management. We have a limited time to do stuff, and we want to do as much different stuff as possible when we have free time.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

my argument is and has always been: why design content that is boring then attempt to drive people to do it with rewards? why not make content that is fun by itself?
driving people by rewards always results in, well, people stop doing MSQ roulette once they hit 90 on all jobs

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Okay listen. That is a flaw with most games in general. If there’s no reason to do it, no matter how fun it is people won’t do it. Rewards are how they keep people interested in that part of the game. Once a player has achieved that goal, they very rarely repeat that part of the game unless re-doing the game entirely. And with a game as massive as an MMO it’s very hard to keep someone in content they consider fun when they could be going for other content whose rewards they haven’t achieved. That’s just how it is. Like it or not.

And using MSQ Roulette in your title to do that is extremely disingenuous because very few people enjoy that.

Its more fun watching paint dry, then doing MS roulette. Thats my reason

Because it features the two worst dungeons in the entire game and one of them takes almost an hour of your play session, often with really entitled freeloaders and aggro-fighting tanks making it drag even more.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

my argument is and has always been: why design content that is boring then attempt to drive people to do it with rewards? why not make content that is fun by itself?
driving people by rewards always results in, well, people stop doing MSQ roulette once they hit 90 on all jobs

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Guys, just make content fun. Its so easy, just forget the fact that different people find different things fun.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

my argument is and has always been: why design content that is boring then attempt to drive people to do it with rewards? why not make content that is fun by itself?
driving people by rewards always results in, well, people stop doing MSQ roulette once they hit 90 on all jobs

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1) "Fun" means different things to different people - what might not be fun to me, is fun to you. In order for more people to participate in the content (which is important in an MMO after all), some people need to get "baited" into doing the content. Not everything will be fun for everyone - I'd go so far to say that its impossible. Those who dont do the content for fun, do it for the rewards - and everyone profits.

2) Most things wont be fun forever - even if you enjoy a certain thing, after a while it gets boring. That while might differe from person to person - again: Rewards ensure that the content (1) lives long enough to keep people subbed and busy and (2) can still be completed by people being a little bit late to it (read: two weeks/months, not two years) still get to see it.

...and finally, sometimes things are just means to an end - the fun is having every job at 90 and having the feeling of "having earned it", content is a means to an end.

In addition to this: Everyones time is limited, so we need to decide what to spent it with to get the most (fun) out of it. Having reached level 90 opens new options on how to entertain yourself within the game. Having finished a grind (aka gotten all the rewards) opens the door to do something else - whether thats in game or something completly different. To me rewards are not only something to work towards but also a kind of signal telling me that I could consider doing something else now.

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Originally Posted by BigHoffie

Guys, just make content fun. Its so easy, just forget the fact that different people find different things fun.

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I don't know anyone who thinks MSQ roulette or FATEs are fun.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

I don't know anyone who thinks MSQ roulette or FATEs are fun.

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Hey, we're out here! We're just in the minority. :(

Doing MSQ roulette means you might get Castrum or Prae, and they take way too long for a roulette even if you are getting exp from them. Doing it for a tiny portion of tomestones? Oh hell no.

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Originally Posted by BigHoffie

Guys, just make content fun. Its so easy, just forget the fact that different people find different things fun.

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yes? how hard is that? I can easily start new colonies in rimworld and play for hours and hours without stopping... and without gaining anything from it. In fact, I have over 1200h in it and haven't earned any rewards for my playtime.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

yes? how hard is that? I can easily start new colonies in rimworld and play for hours and hours without stopping... and without gaining anything from it. In fact, I have over 1200h in it and haven't earned any rewards for my playtime.

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Aaaaaand you already forgot the fact that different people find different things fun.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

1) "Fun" means different things to different people - what might not be fun to me, is fun to you. In order for more people to participate in the content (which is important in an MMO after all), some people need to get "baited" into doing the content. Not everything will be fun for everyone - I'd go so far to say that its impossible. Those who dont do the content for fun, do it for the rewards - and everyone profits.

2) Most things wont be fun forever - even if you enjoy a certain thing, after a while it gets boring. That while might differe from person to person - again: Rewards ensure that the content (1) lives long enough to keep people subbed and busy and (2) can still be completed by people being a little bit late to it (read: two weeks/months, not two years) still get to see it.

...and finally, sometimes things are just means to an end - the fun is having every job at 90 and having the feeling of "having earned it", content is a means to an end.

In addition to this: Everyones time is limited, so we need to decide what to spent it with to get the most (fun) out of it. Having reached level 90 opens new options on how to entertain yourself within the game. Having finished a grind (aka gotten all the rewards) opens the door to do something else - whether thats in game or something completly different. To me rewards are not only something to work towards but also a kind of signal telling me that I could consider doing something else now.

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ok but that doesn't mean everyone's fun should be respected, some people find it fun to instapull notorious monsters with tomahawk and full elemental gear then hiding it behind walls
some other people find it fun if every single item and action ingame has a monetary value attached to it, and they find it fun to trade and earn money by playing the game in the most monetarily efficient way
the reason why this sort of fun should not be tolerated is because they either take away other people's fun, or are so overcentralizing that everything in the game goes to cater to that type of fun exclusively.
rewards driven gameplay is one of those overcentralizing systems that threaten to drag the entire game into it, and xiv is not exception.

I stop MSQ the moment I don't need the exp. The other bonuses aren't worth it, IMO. That's the same as when it comes to many other achievements. Years ago, I got the Firmament crafter titles. I didn't touch an expert recipe again after that.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

yes? how hard is that? I can easily start new colonies in rimworld and play for hours and hours without stopping... and without gaining anything from it. In fact, I have over 1200h in it and haven't earned any rewards for my playtime.

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That sounds as if a game(play) thats quite different from FFXIV is fun to you - for whatever reason, because you are getting something out of it. If not a mount or shiny new weapon, than possibly a sense of "achievement" or "pride" looking at what you've build (I dont know Rimworld, so thats just my guess) - I can easly spent hours on housing in FFXIV (or building a Zoo in Planet Zoo) without getting any reward beside looking at my finished work.
...but is that really so different from looking at my finished relic-weapon? I'd say the biggest difference is that one goal is one I've set for myself and the other one is one suggested by the game - and both might be made up of a lot of smaller goals (that part of the house, that animal habitat, that one colony, that one step in the questline).

Again, I dont know Rimworld, but I'm wondering: If you start a new colony, do you always do it exactly the same way? Are all your colonies are exactly the same?

Variety, and content is ultimately a means to an end for the vast majority of players.

If people are doing MSQ they do it either for the exp to level jobs, or they do it as a means of getting poetics. Content is relative to the person and their interests. I know people that still do Ocean Fishing despite long having all the associated achievements. Why? Because they like pushing the boundaries.

Stuff such as this are examples of user-created-content, and that means different things to different people.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

ok but that doesn't mean everyone's fun should be respected, some people find it fun to instapull notorious monsters with tomahawk and full elemental gear then hiding it behind walls
some other people find it fun if every single item and action ingame has a monetary value attached to it, and they find it fun to trade and earn money by playing the game in the most monetarily efficient way
the reason why this sort of fun should not be tolerated is because they either take away other people's fun, or are so overcentralizing that everything in the game goes to cater to that type of fun exclusively.
rewards driven gameplay is one of those overcentralizing systems that threaten to drag the entire game into it, and xiv is not exception.

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If a game wants to be successful it needs to reach as many people as possible - so yes, within reason everyones fun needs to be respected in some way.
"Within reason" might also include that some peoples fun is not respected (or at least not respected to its full extend) and thats okay, thats why we have different genres - someone who absolutly doesnt enjoy interacting with other people might not be best suited for an MMO, someone who doesnt think its fun to shoot things should stay clear of Call of Duty.

Different peoples ideas of "fun" can be (and are) represtend by different types of content - we got Eureka and Bozja because some people enjoy a more "open world" approach, we got normal modes for raids because some people enjoy the story but not the (more difficult) challenge of Coil and Savage raids, we get Ultimates because some people enjoy that challenge specifically and so on...

For certain content to work you need more people than those who'd enjoy that content in that very moment by itself - so you add rewards so that people who wouldnt do the content for itself (again) to participate, so other people can have their fun, too.

If the game wants to offer fun to as many people as possible, it also needs to offer something else for those contents to work - the alternative would be to go very niche and have a lot less people playing the game.

The reason they are roulettes to begin with is to encourage people, at least once per day, to queue for a certain piece of content. MSQ roulette is there specifically so new players don't have to wait too long for the climactic final scenarios of the base ARR story, and they give good rewards on first queue because the devs KNOW its a pain to do them.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

Isn't this sort of content (roulettes, side content, deep dungeons) supposed to be insanely fun and done only for the sake of playing the game?

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No, of course not.

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Why do people stop doing it once they get their rewards?

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Because doing it once or twice is fun, but once you have done a certain piece of content a hundred times you are pretty sick and tired of seeing it. Doesn't much matter what it is - do it too many times and it gets boring.

Haven't played enough PotD, but I don't think MSQ Roulette is considered... riveting content by really anyone. I actually don't really run it much anymore unless I'm in a very specific I-ordered-pizza-and-want-easy-tomestones mood. I'm surprised how many veterans do it, really.

The main (and prolly the only reason) why people do that awful roulette is because of the huge amount of xp it give. Once you get all job to 90, you have no incitive to run it ever again until the next expansion.

I've read somewhere that they were going to be looking intensively at that roulette in a near future (maybe 6.1 or 6.15 or 6.2)

I can see this roulette being completly removed with the trial of cape westwind since more and more people will get to all job to 90, new player will find to run the final scenario ARR hard to impossible to run because of the very long Q that it will become. I see all 3 scenarios duties going solo and i would not be againt that. Lewt the new player enjoy the rest of ARR while not being botherer by insane long Q.

There is wnough ways already in the game to get experience :)