Mystic Knight (Magi) A potential new job and how it could work

Mystic Knight (Magi): A potential Job

If we examine the world of FFXIV we are able to see just how much effort the team has put into developing the lore regarding the history and people. Specifically, when it comes to providing a sense of character to the jobs, sometimes they will throw hints that we do not even realize are hints at what is to come.

Homeland: Meracydia

The land of Meracydia has always been home to secrets, dragons and magic flow through it akin to the water which surrounds the harsh continent. The few facts we know of this land is that ancient powers still dwell within its harsh domains, some dating as far back as the ancient Allagan Empire.

Secrets of the Magi:

There is a saying spoken in hushed tones by the few who have ventured into that forgotten land “To witness a Magi draw their blade, is to witness death manifesting before you”. Few outsiders have managed to speak of the skills of these warriors, those who have only tell of sorcery which is bound to the blades they wield. The kilij, a favored sword in the east is said to be enhanced by arcane spells. So destructive are these attacks that those who manage to survive, rarely do so for very long.

Beginnings:

“They carry no name, what they once were, is no longer relevant, only their duty remains”. To speak of the Magi’s origins is to speak of the darkness at the heart of Meracydia. The Magi were once innocent souls, kidnapped or acquired through less than desirable means by those who would protect their domains. Often times seeking those who have some aptitudes in the magical arts, the men and women who are taken are broken physically and psychologically.

The Cost:

For all their skills, these swordsmen are not invincible, aethereal grafting usually causes an imbalance to occur, depending on the dominant aether the potential for changes within the soul and physical appearance can become quite horrendous.
Though never confirmed, there are tales of Magi facing creatures who are engulfed in flame, or creatures from the darkest depths which appear out of nowhere. These clashes are often times horrendous, with survivors often vanishing after the conflicts end.

Breakdown:

Weapons: Kilij/scimitar (If you recall Gladiators used to be able to equip daggers and rapiers, then came Rogue Ninja and Red Mage)

Armor: Primarily cloth and leather

Main stat: Intelligence

Combat Style:

Mystic Knights (Magi) can be best described as the “reverse Red Mage”, as many of you are aware our crimson duelists keep themselves at a distance, only dashing in for the physical combos and dashing out to complete their most power spells.
Mystic Knight takes the approach of being in direct combat, using attacks which are enhanced by elemental properties.

The job I'm waiting for now after being disappointed by how they did blu.

I had made a very similar post describing how a mystic knight would work, and it was very similar to this. In terms of looks I would say it would have an Eastern look kind of like the blue mages of ffxi. They were the royal guard of the royalty of aht Urghan, which is thematically almost exactly like radz-at-han. They would look white though.

As for weapon I'd say double scimetars. And yes they would be an almost reversal of the red mage, staying in combat range but infusing their weapons with magic for attacks.

Maybe also, thematically, if from thavnair, they would also use alchemy to imbue their weapons for attacks.

As for gear, if we go the lore route of making them like elite secret spies or something, they could use the scouting gear. Even though, would be cool if they go int route and be a short range caster type.

Nah, RDM already represents this style. Developers create more playable classes to attract new players who want to live out a certain fantasy. New jobs will be extremely distinct from the old ones.

Yeah, just what the game needs - another melee DPS. Definitely not enough of those.

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Originally Posted by Shinimas

Nah, RDM already represents this style. Developers create more playable classes to attract new players who want to live out a certain fantasy. New jobs will be extremely distinct from the old ones.

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Going to disagree with you there. RDM is fun but is far more a caster than a battlemage.

Personally, I would love that, I do enjoy some proper spellsword classes that many MMORPGs tend to forsake.

I believe the Mystic Knight in Final Fantasy refers to Cloud Strifes D&D class I would much rather have the next melee dps class emulate Cloud so we melee dps can finally get a great sword.

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Originally Posted by Xiaoki

Yeah, just what the game needs - another melee DPS. Definitely not enough of those.

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*Cries in only three physical ranged DPS*

God, imagine how stoked the community would be if Puppetmaster was introduced as the fourth physical ranged DPS.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

*Cries in only three physical ranged DPS*

God, imagine how stoked the community would be if Puppetmaster was introduced as the fourth physical ranged DPS.

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I imagine hardly at all.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Going to disagree with you there. RDM is fun but is far more a caster than a battlemage.

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It did get embolden from Rune Fencer. But even still, DRK also says hi. And SAM and GNB loom in the background. The only element a magic-swordsman job can't use at this point is water (*furtively glances at Tidus*).

Still waiting on a whip class for the sole purpose of cosplaying characters like Ivy, the Belmonts, and Indiana Jones.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I imagine hardly at all.



It did get embolden from Rune Fencer. But even still, DRK also says hi. And SAM and GNB loom in the background. The only element a magic-swordsman job can't use at this point is water (*furtively glances at Tidus*).

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If you're referring to Embolden from XI then it shares the name but not the same ability/spell. Embolden would only affect the enhancing magic spell on you alone. Yes rune fencer had gambit but then that's more similar to trick attack and chain stratagem.

DRK looks a little like a battle mage but doesn't play like one. Sam even less so and gnb only in the sense that you're putting your aether into the cartridges. RDM does in a way have the "empowering weapon with magic" thing but it doesn't change how the job plays and only increases the damage of your melee weaponskills.

I would like a job that's more in the style of WoW's enhance shaman or TOR's jedi shadow/sith assassin. A job that does look like a battle mage but also plays like one.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

If you're referring to Embolden from XI then it shares the name but not the same ability/spell. Embolden would only affect the enhancing magic spell on you alone. Yes rune fencer had gambit but then that's more similar to trick attack and chain stratagem.

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That's not much of a difference, especially since XI was not as "party-centric" as XIV.

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DRK looks a little like a battle mage but doesn't play like one. Sam even less so and gnb only in the sense that you're putting your aether into the cartridges. RDM does in a way have the "empowering weapon with magic" thing but it doesn't change how the job plays and only increases the damage of your melee weaponskills.

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DRK is basically a spiritual successor to Rune Fencer, with an emo coat of paint. And I've seen people state that the devs have referred to SAM and/or GNB as kind of "the mystic knight class," although I admit I have no sources for that. They certainly satisfy that job fantasy for me, anyway.

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I would like a job that's more in the style of WoW's enhance shaman or TOR's jedi shadow/sith assassin. A job that does look like a battle mage but also plays like one.

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Again, I don't really see what any sort of "elemental imbuement" job would add to the game. Elemental typing is completely aesthetic, so the ability to switch between them would be empty spectacle with little to no influence on gameplay or job design. And, again, we already sort of have that in several forms:

* SAM imbues its blade with moon, flowers, or snow, and the moon/flowers skills have effects you want to keep up. This one feels the closest to what we will ever get for "Mystic Knight", and even moreso if we ever get that dropped Yukikaze ability that could have a slowing effect to it.
* GNB has magic cartridges that you build up and spend on big fire explosions. It's like en-fire, but in XIV fire = big damage.
* DRK has an "enchanted blade" phase with Edge of Darkness/Shadow.
* RDM, as you observed, effectively has "En-Spells" but it's aesthetically blood magic.
* PLD is kind of an En-Holy sword job but it's easily the weakest analogue of the bunch.

I just don't see what people see in this job proposal. The *only* thing that you or anyone says makes these jobs *not* feel like a Battlemage/Mystic Knight is that they don't have a suite of elemental imbuement powers. But we already have jobs that imbue their blades with: Ice, Fire, Darkness, Blood, and Holy magic. And they all feel quite distinct. Having a job that can "imbue it all" would add precisely nothing to the game and in fact just feel like it lacks a clear identity compared to the jobs we currently have, while simultaneously diluting their uniqueness.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

That's not much of a difference, especially since XI was not as "party-centric" as XIV.

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WHAT!? XI was faaaar more party based than XIV is. Not even remotely close. You needed a party/alliance to get things done in that game 90% of the time if not more. The devs had to add the trust system where you can use them in almost all content to make up for the declining party base because the game was designed to be mostly played in a party.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

DRK is basically a spiritual successor to Rune Fencer, with an emo coat of paint. And I've seen people state that the devs have referred to SAM and/or GNB as kind of "the mystic knight class," although I admit I have no sources for that. They certainly satisfy that job fantasy for me, anyway.

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Besides DRK having Dark Mind/Missionary, totally disagree with you there. GNB and SAM obviously does not tick off the "mystic knight" box for myself and plenty of others.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Again, I don't really see what any sort of "elemental imbuement" job would add to the game. Elemental typing is completely aesthetic, so the ability to switch between them would be empty spectacle with little to no influence on gameplay or job design. And, again, we already sort of have that in several forms:

* SAM imbues its blade with moon, flowers, or snow, and the moon/flowers skills have effects you want to keep up. This one feels the closest to what we will ever get for "Mystic Knight", and even moreso if we ever get that dropped Yukikaze ability that could have a slowing effect to it.
* GNB has magic cartridges that you build up and spend on big fire explosions. It's like en-fire, but in XIV fire = big damage.
* DRK has an "enchanted blade" phase with Edge of Darkness/Shadow.
* RDM, as you observed, effectively has "En-Spells" but it's aesthetically blood magic.
* PLD is kind of an En-Holy sword job but it's easily the weakest analogue of the bunch.

I just don't see what people see in this job proposal. The *only* thing that you or anyone says makes these jobs *not* feel like a Battlemage/Mystic Knight is that they don't have a suite of elemental imbuement powers. But we already have jobs that imbue their blades with: Ice, Fire, Darkness, Blood, and Holy magic. And they all feel quite distinct. Having a job that can "imbue it all" would add precisely nothing to the game and in fact just feel like it lacks a clear identity compared to the jobs we currently have, while simultaneously diluting their uniqueness.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

RDM does in a way have the "empowering weapon with magic" thing but it doesn't change how the job plays and only increases the damage of your melee weaponskills.

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You miss this part? None of the examples you gave impact how those jobs play. RDM is the closest thing. DRK and SAM just have moves that have the visual but there's no other form of those attacks that are "not magic empowered" to compare them to. There's no choice of which element to use to. No variation in the attack based on the element. NIN once had something close based on which poison you used but that just impacted one ability from what I remember. The one that would stun or silence depending on the poison.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

WHAT!? XI was faaaar more party based than XIV is. Not even remotely close. You needed a party/alliance to get things done in that game 90% of the time if not more.

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XIV is defined by and balanced around party composition and roles. XI *needed* parties for some content, but the jobs themselves were not designed around a specific party structure. If I were to be more clear, in XI parties were defined by the jobs. In XIV, jobs are defined by the parties.

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Besides DRK having Dark Mind/Missionary, totally disagree with you there. GNB and SAM obviously does not tick off the "mystic knight" box for myself and plenty of others.

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Can't help ya there if you can't pull yourself out of the gutters of rote traditionalism.

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You miss this part? None of the examples you gave impact how those jobs play. RDM is the closest thing. DRK and SAM just have moves that have the visual but there's no other form of those attacks that are "not magic empowered" to compare them to. There's no choice of which element to use to. No variation in the attack based on the element. NIN once had something close based on which poison you used but that just impacted one ability from what I remember. The one that would stun or silence depending on the poison.

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ELEMENTS DO NOT DO ANYTHING IN THIS GAME. What you are asking for is pointless, and the tissue-thin distinction between what you seem to want and what we do have:

* Full-on enchanted blade phase (DRK)
* Enchanted versions of attacks (RDM)
* Enhanced modular attack weaving/bursting (GNB)
* Elemental attack swapping (SAM)

Does not seem to justify the inclusion of yet another magic-sword job in this game.

Also, now that you mention NIN, just play NIN's mudra system if you want an elemental generalist.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

XIV is defined by and balanced around party composition and roles. XI *needed* parties for some content, but the jobs themselves were not designed around a specific party structure. If I were to be more clear, in XI parties were defined by the jobs. In XIV, jobs are defined by the parties.

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Yep you're right. XI didn't have the tank role, healer role, melee dps to perform the skillchain, magic damage dealers to magic burst, and support jobs. /s
And a party was needed for MOST content not "some".

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

ELEMENTS DO NOT DO ANYTHING IN THIS GAME. What you are asking for is pointless, and the tissue-thin distinction between what you seem to want and what we do have:

* Full-on enchanted blade phase (DRK)
* Enchanted versions of attacks (RDM)
* Enhanced modular attack weaving/bursting (GNB)
* Elemental attack swapping (SAM)

Does not seem to justify the inclusion of yet another magic-sword job in this game.

Also, now that you mention NIN, just play NIN's mudra system if you want an elemental generalist.

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So the reworked SMN doesn't have abilities that change depending on which primal you had just summoned? This is the kind of mechanic that we are asking for in a melee job or tank.

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Again, I don't really see what any sort of "elemental imbuement" job would add to the game. Elemental typing is completely aesthetic, so the ability to switch between them would be empty spectacle with little to no influence on gameplay or job design.

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It could always be made to work for a job.

For example say you put a water debuff on an enemy then hit it with ice causing bonus dmg + a stun, or you apply an ice debuff then hit it with fire causing another reaction, etc.

Another example: Elemental buffs on weapons could change your abilities. One attack enhanced with fire could apply a dot while the same attack enhanced with lightning could be an aoe, a water buff heals, ice deals burst dmg, or an earth buff boosts defense / reduces enemy dmg.

Then you could combine them to have fire+lightning spread your dot(s), fire+water applies a hot, lightning+ice deals bigger aoe dmg, and so on.

Yet another example: Attach resources or job gauge things to each element forcing them to be used however you want, this could be done in many different ways.

It almost sounds to me like you're stuck in the idea that jobs can only be designed bottom-up (mechanics first) while top-down design (aesthetics/concept first) is just as viable and imo a lot more fun and interesting. Aesthetics can go a long way toward inspiring mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

It could always be made to work for a job.

For example say you put a water debuff on an enemy then hit it with ice causing bonus dmg + a stun, or you apply an ice debuff then hit it with fire causing another reaction, etc.

Another example: Elemental buffs on weapons could change your abilities. One attack enhanced with fire could apply a dot while the same attack enhanced with lightning could be an aoe, a water buff heals, ice deals burst dmg, or an earth buff boosts defense / reduces enemy dmg.

Then you could combine them to have fire+lightning spread your dot(s), fire+water applies a hot, lightning+ice deals bigger aoe dmg, and so on.

Yet another example: Attach resources or job gauge things to each element forcing them to be used however you want, this could be done in many different ways.

It almost sounds to me like you're stuck in the idea that jobs can only be designed bottom-up (mechanics first) while top-down design (aesthetics/concept first) is just as viable and imo a lot more fun and interesting. Aesthetics can go a long way toward inspiring mechanics.

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This is just the direction blue mage is going. And even if it were a unique concept (which it isn't, thanks to BLU), I do not see anything of an "elemental combo" gimmick like this not being a limited job thanks to the deprioritization of debuffs.

Also, for the umpteenth time, we already have SAM effectively doing this kind of "elemental buffs change your abilities," just with "elements" that are more subtle than a basic b elemental wheel. All you are arguing for is a slight aesthetic change toward rote traditionalism.

It doesn't matter if it is bottom-up or top-down; the idea has little to no untapped design space no matter how you frame it. I acknowledge that most jobs in XIV are top-down design--but they at least start at the top with an idea that isn't poached from and trodden to death by existing jobs. And so far the job designs haven't pigeonholed themselves into pedestrian, uninspired cliches like "dur hur all the elements."

I am not saying it can't happen. It just has so little potential to add to the job roster as opposed to other more unique and novel additions. It is the sort of "empty fanservice" concept I expect to be avoided or delayed until the devs literally have no more fresh ideas to implement and just want to coast on goodwill during maintenance.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Yep you're right. XI didn't have the tank role, healer role, melee dps to perform the skillchain, magic damage dealers to magic burst, and support jobs. /s
And a party was needed for MOST content not "some".

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Hm, read again. I don't think you fully grasp what I am saying.

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So the reworked SMN doesn't have abilities that change depending on which primal you had just summoned? This is the kind of mechanic that we are asking for in a melee job or tank.

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So play SAM. And if that's not good enough for you then maybe stop campaigning for slight variations on things we already have to suit your basic sensibilities.

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I do not see anything of an "elemental combo" gimmick like this not being a limited job thanks to the deprioritization of debuffs.

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They could just as easily be buffs or tied in to a job gauge.

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we already have SAM effectively doing this kind of "elemental buffs change your abilities,"

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Do we though? I don't get that vibe from SAM at all, it's more like a combo point job. Granted I've yet to fully lvl my SAM. Every job uses aether to some extent except maybe GNB, magically-enhanced attacks on any ol' job isn't quite the same as a job that's built around imbuing its weapon with an element or whatever.

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I am not saying it can't happen. It just has so little potential to add to the job roster as opposed to other more unique and novel additions.

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I could see that. Such as?

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

Do we though? I don't get that vibe from SAM at all, it's more like a combo point job. Granted I've yet to fully lvl my SAM. Every job uses aether to some extent except maybe GNB, magically-enhanced attacks on any ol' job isn't quite the same as a job that's built around imbuing its weapon with an element or whatever.

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SAM's basic combo skills have Moon/Flower/Snow effects. The Moon and Flower skills have different buff enhancements you need to keep uptime on. So it already is a job with "buffs and job gauge" related to imbuing your sword. The only reason people don't see or feel it is because the "elements" are a bit more esoteric than fire/ice/lightning, but the central gimmick of SAM is collecting Sen through various elemental attacks, to imbue your sword with various iaijutsu spells.

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I could see that. Such as?

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I've said elsewhere that as long as there are weapon archetypes that are not used, they will likely be prioritized for new job designs. I'm just going to link to that:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5834307

As for job archetypes, I can think of a few off the top of my head that don't rehash things like a Mystic Knight would:

* Blitzballer - We don't have an "athlete" archetype yet.
* Green Mage - We don't really have a "druid" archetype anymore and Green Mage leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
* Illusionist - No "light magic" DPS yet.
* Any kind of water mage would be pretty unique since the closest we have is BLU.
* Cannoneer - People want corsairs but pistols are taken by MCH. They want a chemist job but it never seems to work. We don't have a long cast-time Aiming job yet.

I would say that my first argument to Severian's basic argument that we only want Mystic Knight to retread old ground covered by other classes by suggesting that if we start by believing that it doesn't need a sword, that opens up a whole slew of design options. I usually go with a whipsword, or a double ended sword (You usually hear "Judge weapon" or "Zidane's weapon" here, but I think the most iconic explanation is Darth Maul's weapon, which should be kinetic and flashy enough to work as a weapon) but I can see the argument that these are just more swords with extra steps. I've also heard a mace, or axes, going with a sort of Viking esk rune magic sort of vibe, though I think those extra steps are important.

Second, beyond changing the weapon, you could in theory change the application of magic. I'd be cool with fire ice lightning, but if we assume these are overplayed, Spell blade from FFTA2 used status spells as it's main effect so there is precedent for non elemental magic, if they needed that wiggle room. (this is not saying that they should use those status spells for their blade magic, just that it allows for a break from the elements as a required feature). I don't think elements are a deal breaker so long as the weapon choice is creative enough, but not being elemental isn't a deal breaker for me.

Now, to address the "You've already got DRK/SAM/GNB if you want to be an elemental focussed melee combatant". Besides the fact that you chose sword classes because obviously all we want is a sword mage that goes whackity whackity whack with our Fire Ice Lightning weapons because it is us that lacks any imagination, I don't feel that these answer the desire for our job fantasy. There is more to what we want than just the colour of the particle effects that enshroud our weapon. We want to be a magical warrior enchanting our weapon with spells to gain power and effect (this is where I usually mechanically distinguish the Job by making the chosen magic imbued into the blade change the core combo, rather than just "more power"). Dark is a angry knight that taps into that anger to empower their weapon. Not a mage using spells to achieve the effect. Samurai is a martial artist swinging their sword, their battle prowess giving their swings visual flair due to... I'm not entirely sure to be honest. Red Mage is a long range caster with the odd DPS phase. Moving on. Gunbreaker is the worst example because it's not creating a fire blade. It's creating explosions by detonating enhanced shells (which at least based on my VIII understanding are actuallt just creating vibrations down the length of the blade and not damaging the enemy themselves, but whatever.) That'd be like me throwing out your Cannoneer example because BLM and RDM both already create big explosions. (also Scholar, Summoner, what have you.)

In short, they can change it up beyond just "dude makes their sword go whoosh fire and hits the enemy", in the same way your suggested water mage wouldn't just be a Black mage with blue particle effects instead of Red... and a different shade and shape of blue.

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SAM's basic combo skills have Moon/Flower/Snow effects. The Moon and Flower skills have different buff enhancements you need to keep uptime on. So it already is a job with "buffs and job gauge" related to imbuing your sword. The only reason people don't see or feel it is because the "elements" are a bit more esoteric than fire/ice/lightning, but the central gimmick of SAM is collecting Sen through various elemental attacks, to imbue your sword with various iaijutsu spells.

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Ah, but there's no interaction with the buffs - no skill changes, no combinations with them, they just boost your damage with 100% uptime. They're functionally the same as dots or RPR's Death's Design except they're harder to apply and are applied to you instead of an enemy.

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as long as there are weapon archetypes that are not used, they will likely be prioritized for new job designs.

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That brings up a couple interesting questions.

What's more important: A job with a more unique weapon/aesthetic or a job that garners more interest from the player base?

Also what's more important: Unique aesthetics/weapons or unique gameplay/mechanics?

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Blitzballer - We don't have an "athlete" archetype yet.

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Hard to see Blitzball becoming a combat job over a side activity, plus throwing a ball at something 'till it dies is kinda... lame. As for an athlete job Monk comes to mind - Martial Arts are both for combat and sport. Also Dancer in a way. If Blitzballer were to be implemented I'm assuming it'd be ranged physical, yeah?

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Green Mage - We don't really have a "druid" archetype anymore and Green Mage leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
* Illusionist - No "light magic" DPS yet.
* Any kind of water mage would be pretty unique since the closest we have is BLU.

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Yeh mages tend to be more unique by default and this game could really use another proper mage of some kind. Full agree.

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Cannoneer - People want corsairs but pistols are taken by MCH. They want a chemist job but it never seems to work. We don't have a long cast-time Aiming job yet.

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True but a long cast time Aiming job is mechanically identical to magical ranged, phys ranged in this game are defined by their instants and mobility. Cast times were added to Bard back in Heavensward and people hated it so idk if that will ever be a thing again.

As for melee weapons well the vast majority of them involve a hunk of metal on a stick that you swing at people but there are many many different kinds. We currently have two 2-handed swords, daggers. 1-hand sword + shield, 1-hand rapier + focus, spear/polearm, 2-handed axe, 1-hand gunblade, fists/claws, and a scythe.

We're lacking blunt weapons or whips/chains but also curved or dual wield swords which is what I would expect for a Spellblade and honestly I think they are different enough from current weapons especially in how they're used - not as different as clubs or whips but we have at least 10 more years of FFXIV to add more jobs, there's plenty of space for all of them (so long as the team gets enough funding to support them all).

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to consider a job like Mystic Knight being added to the game at some point though it's not likely to be soon since we did just get a new melee job, unless there's enough demand to add it sooner.

Mystic knight/rune fencer can be a tank. Doesn't have to be a melee dps.

Anyway, really hope we get this job fantasy in the game in next expac or two.

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it doesn't need a sword

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Mystic knight/rune fencer can be a tank. Doesn't have to be a melee dps.

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True, true. The most important bit is enhancing their weapon(s) with something, so long as the job is focused around that (in a more obvious and gameplay-altering fashion than SAM) the rest can be whatever.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

I would say that my first argument to Severian's basic argument that we only want Mystic Knight to retread old ground covered by other classes by suggesting that if we start by believing that it doesn't need a sword, that opens up a whole slew of design options.

I don't think elements are a deal breaker so long as the weapon choice is creative enough, but not being elemental isn't a deal breaker for me.

Now, to address the "You've already got DRK/SAM/GNB if you want to be an elemental focussed melee combatant". Besides the fact that you chose sword classes because obviously all we want is a sword mage that goes whackity whackity whack with our Fire Ice Lightning weapons because it is us that lacks any imagination, I don't feel that these answer the desire for our job fantasy. There is more to what we want than just the colour of the particle effects that enshroud our weapon. We want to be a magical warrior enchanting our weapon with spells to gain power and effect (this is where I usually mechanically distinguish the Job by making the chosen magic imbued into the blade change the core combo, rather than just "more power")....Samurai is a martial artist swinging their sword, their battle prowess giving their swings visual flair due to... I'm not entirely sure to be honest.

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Thank you. These are ideas worth considering. Granted, I still think the untapped design space is slim with NIN and SAM, but thank you for thinking beyond swords.

You might be okay with non-elements (I could maybe get on board with that), but fire/ice/lightning imbuement is inherent to the job fantasy that most of these people are clamoring for.

I still argue that SAM hits on your described job fantasy pretty solidly. It's just a more original/esoteric implementation of the concept than what we have seen previously. Again, snow/moon/flowers act aesthetically like elements would, and moon/flowers have different buffs to keep up.

I would actually further argue that for a game that is so heavy on rotations, SAM might be the most we will ever see of this kind of "swap imbuement" job. Imagine how slow and disjointed the rotation would be if imbuing were an ability separate from attacking. Imbue, then swing. Imbue, then swing.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Mystic knight/rune fencer can be a tank. Doesn't have to be a melee dps.

Anyway, really hope we get this job fantasy in the game in next expac or two.

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I love how after all this discussion of how limited this concept is, you just try to conclusively state that a fourth magic-sword tank is a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

Ah, but there's no interaction with the buffs - no skill changes, no combinations with them, they just boost your damage with 100% uptime. They're functionally the same as dots or RPR's Death's Design except they're harder to apply and are applied to you instead of an enemy.

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To me that just reads as cutting the fat. The rotation would be really clunky if we had to dedicate time to swapping skills when they could just be integrated into the combo abilities like they are.

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That brings up a couple interesting questions.

What's more important: A job with a more unique weapon/aesthetic or a job that garners more interest from the player base?

Also what's more important: Unique aesthetics/weapons or unique gameplay/mechanics?

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I think Sage and Reaper pretty much confirm that a distinct job designed around a unique weapon is going to be more popular than just rotely throwing in a "classic" job that players want.

And I think if you start with a unique weapon, the aesthetics facilitate more unique mechanics. If a sword is your jumping off place, it's going to be much more difficult to find design space in a game with 5 sword jobs, when you could just use a flail or a greathammer or a longpole, etc. etc.

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Hard to see Blitzball becoming a combat job over a side activity, plus throwing a ball at something 'till it dies is kinda... lame. As for an athlete job Monk comes to mind - Martial Arts are both for combat and sport. Also Dancer in a way. If Blitzballer were to be implemented I'm assuming it'd be ranged physical, yeah?

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I think it actually has space to maybe be a Scouting job. I guess Monk is very athletic too, but Blitzer could take some tackles from the mini-game and have a lot of melee time. In a way it would be kind of a "mid-range" Monk though, since I see the ball as kind of being an extension of kicks and punches.

I still think it is a) quite likely after GNB and b) has a fair amount of potential as a weightier blunt-ranged job. Not to mention could have some water effects that would look pretty unique. At any rate, it's a better idea than another sword-mage.

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We're lacking blunt weapons or whips/chains but also curved or dual wield swords which is what I would expect for a Spellblade and honestly I think they are different enough from current weapons especially in how they're used - not as different as clubs or whips but we have at least 10 more years of FFXIV to add more jobs, there's plenty of space for all of them (so long as the team gets enough funding to support them all).

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Two-handed-sword elementalist treads a lot on NIN's job fantasy. In fact, the Mudra system basically imbues your attacks with elements, so it's already functioning as something very similar to Mystic Knight as well.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I love how after all this discussion of how limited this concept is, you just try to conclusively state that a fourth magic-sword tank is a good idea.

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Where did I say it has to use a sword?? Also, I love how you say it's been a discussion but it's really just been you lecturing as to why you think it's a bad idea. Just your points sound good to you but not to myself and the others asking for the job.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Where did I say it has to use a sword?? Also, I love how you say it's been a discussion but it's really just been you lecturing as to why you think it's a bad idea. Just your points sound good to you but not to myself and the others asking for the job.

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You called it a "fencer."

I'm biased because I would love a 2H European longsword DPS more than pretty much anything, but... yeah, between PLD, DRK, SAM and to a lesser extent RDM, there's not much room for something like that anymore i'd be okay with them giving SAM more straight swords as a compromise

About the only variant of sword class I can see them adding at this point would be one that uses two swords in a manner like Gabranth (FFXII Judges in general) where they can combine into a polearm. Thing is, there's this weird overlap between Judge weapons and the so-called "thief swords" in FFIX, to the point I wonder if they'd do the reverse of what they did to Reaper, where they made it a Maiming (i.e. heavy armour) Job despite RPRs being assassins, and both of its unique sets being lightly armoured: a "Mystic Knight" Job whose AF gear is heavy armour, but otherwise uses Scouting gear...?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

You called it a "fencer."

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I didn't refer to rune fencer in this thread till you brought up Embolden being taken from RUN. The other time I did say "mystic knight/rune fencer". Sure, I could have said "mystic/rune knight" I'll give you that but I never said the kind of job we are asking for HAS to use a sword. I'm actually more in favor of something like a naginata. So something Iroha (XI) inspired after her power up.

You also don't seem to understand what we are requesting by enhancing the attacks by which element is being used. Most of the jobs you've listed off is just a visual effect that has no effect on the gameplay. RDM is currently the only one that does since the "magic enhance" melee combo unlocks the magic combo so there's a difference in gameplay there compared to doing the melee combo without sufficient mana. We want multiple abilities to function differently based on which element you're currently in much like how EW SMN is.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I didn't refer to rune fencer in this thread till you brought up Embolden being taken from RUN. The other time I did say "mystic knight/rune fencer". Sure, I could have said "mystic/rune knight" I'll give you that but I never said the kind of job we are asking for HAS to use a sword. I'm actually more in favor of something like a naginata. So something Iroha (XI) inspired after her power up.

You also don't seem to understand what we are requesting by enhancing the attacks by which element is being used. Most of the jobs you've listed off is just a visual effect that has no effect on the gameplay. RDM is currently the only one that does since the "magic enhance" melee combo unlocks the magic combo so there's a difference in gameplay there compared to doing the melee combo without sufficient mana. We want multiple abilities to function differently based on which element you're currently in much like how EW SMN is.

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Naginata may be complicated since I believe that most of the weapon designs that would fit it are already Lancer/Dragoon weapons, While I suppose they could pull the same trick they did with Ninja and Paladin, but that would be a rather large amount of weapons Dragoon loses that they need to replace. (Of course, it is ultimately the same number of weapons they'd need to make, it's just that I feel if you say, limited Spears to pointed thrusting weapons and Naginatas to single edged cutting weapons, you'd be doing both sets a disservice.) But it's just a weapon choice, no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Haven't played XI, so I can't say I can comment on Iroha beyond her walking up to crabs and giving them a stab (her basic gameplay in XIV)

And unfortunately for both sides of the discussion, Severian is hardly arguing against a monolith. I'm certain there are some that want a dual blade wielding mage knight simply for the aesthetic. Though I do believe most of the people asking are aware of the necessity of XIV's system for it to require a new type of weapon. He did address the issue with imbuing as a separate step when he quoted me, Though the summoner style "the imbument is also an attack" would address that as well. Of course, as noted, Summoner has already dipped it's toes into this one, so a bit more would be needed to differentiate it (Though I feel that the style wouldn't be facing as much backlash on a melee build as Summoner is right now.)

If it’s designed like a inverse RDM where instead of a 1-2-3 finisher it’s a spell chain finisher…kinda like NIN. Hmm guess I didn’t think that one through

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Originally Posted by jon041065

DRK looks a little like a battle mage but doesn't play like one. Sam even less so and gnb only in the sense that you're putting your aether into the cartridges. RDM does in a way have the "empowering weapon with magic" thing but it doesn't change how the job plays and only increases the damage of your melee weaponskills.

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They kinda did at one point, looking back at the abilities back in Heavensward, they had a lot more "magic" involved in their animations. Unfortunately they've been simplified to oblivion, so... Nowadays it's really hard to compare them to an Eldritch Knight.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

They kinda did at one point, looking back at the abilities back in Heavensward, they had a lot more "magic" involved in their animations. Unfortunately they've been simplified to oblivion, so... Nowadays it's really hard to compare them to an Eldritch Knight.

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That's just the animations again. DRK did have Dark Arts to alter what some abilities did which yes is the kind of mechanic we are talking about. That was just one ability and I (probably the others too) would like to see a job that has a few of these abilities that is in the tank or melee role.

I think adding another DPS job would be a mistake there's already 11 to balance, and work just glancing at the forums SMN, Nin, MNK, and MCH seem to need a lot of love. That being said I would love a lightarmor mage tank that used big magic shields, and runes or something to soak damage rather than just "big armor guy take hits good". Maybe squishier than the others but with higher damage. I think imbuing would naturally be part of the class, but not the main focus. Could use magic evasion spells, and clones to make it more "believable", but yeah magetank is something I'd love to see done, and might bring more tanks in which are always in demand.

It's also something I've not seen done in any recent MMO maybe because of the gear stats, but you could easily just make a trait that massively buffed cloth gear.