Should Summoner's Elemental Mastery Trait (lvl 86) be moved to lower levels?

Hi everyone,

I ask this question because whenever I'm synced to lower levels, I feel that Summoner's summons lack distinction.

For example, before level 86, garuda and titan effectively feel the same. Yet from level 86 onward, you need to begin thinking about whether it's optimal to cast garuda's slipstream or to just use titan for pure mobility. Given this example alone, I'd like it if the dev team would move the level 86 trait down as early as ARR.

For example, once you were to unlock the ifrit egi, you'd also gain its gap-closers. Likewise with the garuda egi, her slipstream, and titan egi his continuation-esque combo. Doing this would give Summoners early on during their leveling experience the time to build the muscle memory to know when to use which primal vs. just treating garuda and titan as the same thing for nearly 80 levels, and then having to break that muscle memory once you reach the current level cap of 90.

Other than that, I really love this job, and I'm excited to see the changes it'll receive throughout future patches/expansions.

It would definitely be nice to have this one at much lower levels as its basically what completes the rotation. A weaker version of the abilities should open up at lv60 when you unlock astral flow then when you hit 86 the current, or even better, versions unlock. It'd help with the problem of having way too few buttons on summoner.

The 86 trait should come much earlier, along with potency buffs that ensure ruby/topaz/emerald ruin are always dps gains even when standing still. Heck, I could see Elemental Mastery being the level 50 trait.

I 100% agree. I was slowly leveling my SMN and it DRAMATICALLY changed in enjoyment once I hit 86 because things fell into place and the summons felt interesting and distinct. Plus they did something similar with Aethercharge being created to fill the same role as Dreadwyrm Trance because it would feel too basic without it.

With some quick checking I would say the following fits pretty naturally:

NEW TRAIT -
Elemental Flow Lv. 64.
Grants Ifrit's Favor upon executing Summon Ifrit, Titan's Favor upon executing Summon Titan, and Garuda's Favor upon executing Summon Garuda.
Enhances Astral Flow according to your current elemental attunement.
Ifrit's Favor Upgrade: Ruby Cyclone
Titan's Favor Upgrade: Rock Buster
Garuda's Favor Upgrade: Whirlwind

UPDATED TRAIT -
Elemental Mastery Lv. 86.
Upgrades Ruby Cyclone to Crimson Cyclone, Rock Buster to Mountain Buster, and Whirlwind to Slipstream.

NEW JOB ACTIONS -
Ruby Cyclone Lv. 64.
Spell
Instant cast
2.5s GCD
25 yalm range, 5 yalm AoE

Rushes forward and delivers a fire attack to target and all enemies nearby it with a potency of 280 for the first enemy, and 65% less for all remaining enemies.
Can only be executed while under the effect of Ifrit's Favor.
Cannot be executed while bound.

※Action changes to Ruby Strike upon execution.
※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.

Ruby Strike Lv. 64.
Spell
Instant cast
2.5s GCD
3 yalm range, 5 yalm AoE

Deals fire damage to target and all enemies nearby it with a potency of 280 for the first enemy, and 65% less for all remaining enemies.
Combo Action: Ruby Cyclone

※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.


Rock Buster Lv. 64.
Ability
Instant cast
1s GCD
25 yalm range, 5 yalm AoE

Deals earth damage to target and all enemies nearby it with a potency of 90 for the first enemy, and 70% less for all remaining enemies.
Can only be executed while under the effect of Titan's Favor.

※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.

Whirlwind Lv. 64.
Spell
3s cast
3.5s GCD
25 yalm range, 5 yalm AoE

Deals wind damage to target and all enemies nearby it with a potency of 280 for the first enemy, and 65% less for all remaining enemies.
Additional Effect: Creates a windstorm centered around the target, dealing damage to any enemies who enter
Potency: 20
Duration: 15s
Can only be executed while under the effect of Garuda's Favor.

※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.

I agree with this 100 %.
The first time I logged in after the EW update I was so confused when I tried out SMN and I wasn't able to execute the rotation shown in the trailer. Then I realized that this will be the level 90 rotation. In my opinion, the new SMN starts to fall apart at level 70.
The kit we have now should be moved to level 80 at the latest to be justifyable. The thing that bothers me most as of now is that SMN feels so underdeveloped. From the mentioned levels on, new skills and/or summons should be added to make the job feel more complete and engaging/rewarding. Not that I'm hoping for that, but it would make the job feel better regardless.

Yeah, I think it should be available earlier too. Honestly, below 86 and after 86 are 2 completely different experiences and the transition can be jarring.

I don’t disagree with this, but I think something would need to be added between 80-90. This change would literally just make the 80-90 job progression be increased potencies, animations, and an extra charge of radiant aegis.

I was saying this in a more controversial thread about summoner changes too, but it was sadly ignored. The trait definitely should appear at lower levels since I feel it offers the biggest factors into deciding what order to cast summons in.

On one hand, it should definitely be a lower level to make the class more engaging, sooner. But on the other hand, if move it to say, level 60, then you won't have any new buttons or ANYTHING from 60 to 90. Which is more of a problem with the job in general but yknow.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I don’t disagree with this, but I think something would need to be added between 80-90. This change would literally just make the 80-90 job progression be increased potencies, animations, and an extra charge of radiant aegis.

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I don't think that'd a bad thing. I think it's enough to more or less have your entire kit by 50, and just enjoy the battle encounters as you level. But perhaps it's just me, as I never enjoyed have to relearn my rotation/opener every 10 levels or so.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

On one hand, it should definitely be a lower level to make the class more engaging, sooner. But on the other hand, if move it to say, level 60, then you won't have any new buttons or ANYTHING from 60 to 90. Which is more of a problem with the job in general but yknow.

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Like I told someone earlier, I don't think having any new buttons throughout the leveling process is bad. More or less having a complete kit earlier encourages the player, I believe, to focus on enjoying the battle encounters rather than relearn rotations/openers. In general, I would like it if every job in this game had most of their kit by 50 with only one skill learned every expansion. I believe it'd make the leveling experience a lot cleaner and more predictable.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I was saying this in a more controversial thread about summoner changes too, but it was sadly ignored. The trait definitely should appear at lower levels since I feel it offers the biggest factors into deciding what order to cast summons in.

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Agree. The decision making you get to make at 90 is lacking at lower levels because of this trait being earned so late. I genuinely believe moving this trait down would do so much for the job.

Ideally Summoner would get something that isn't just a graphical upgrade in every expansion's ten-level range. If Elemental Mastery happens at 50, and from 50-60 you get Deathflare, and from 60-70 you get Bahamut, and from 70-80 you get Phoenix (maybe you could put some Summoner-unique revive spell here, replacing the Arcanist's Resurrect?), you could save Ruin IV and/or some sort of bespoke energy drain/aetherflow upgrade for the 80-90 range (with 90 being the big graphical and potency upgrade to your elemental summons as before).

Give the basic abilities at 50 with Enkindle or at 60 with Ahk Morn. Make them something less spectacular, The Ifrit Closer without the follow up, Garuda's ability doesn't leave the field DOT, or it doesn't last as long... something about weakening Titan... then Flesh it out at 86. Ifrit gets a two hit, you get the full DOT... Something something Titan...

I absolutely agree. I've played SMN synced down to lvl 50 one time and: NEVER. AGAIN.EVER. I would much rather go back to managing timers for both Bio and Miasma than go through the motions of summoning different carbuncles/egi/whatever that HAVE NO DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER, wondering why the heck they gave SMN such an empty mini-game in the first place.

Sure, but I’d prefer a rework. It’s not going to make much of a difference when it’s learned and the whole kit is full of issues either way.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Sure, but I’d prefer a rework. It’s not going to make much of a difference when it’s learned and the whole kit is full of issues either way.

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You’re out of your mind if you think we’re getting another full rework.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

You’re out of your mind if you think we’re getting another full rework.

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It's fundamentally necessary because the current rotation doesn't allow any room for new actions or mechanics that add meaningful gameplay without at the bare minimum throwing out the Avatars. And that's entirely due to how the Resummons function. To be clear, I have nothing against the intention behind putting the Avatars in the kit. They're amazing looking and it's clearly part of what's been missing from prior iterations. But the way they're implemented is the primary reason Summoner's kit will not scale in the long term due to its current state. That's inarguable. The current implementation must go if you want to be able to implement more (and better) Summoner-like mechanics in the kit.

I've gone over the explicit technical reasons why about a dozen times at this point. If you don't want to see it that's your problem.

I just don’t think they’re going to start from scratch again. I think we’ll get changes to the system they’ve created.

I think going forward it needs to becoming a proc based caster.

They could for instance add another astral flow type ability that would differ per phase and be proc based. It would add a third button to the rotation, and would give you something to manage. Maybe for titan it as a 3 to your 1-2 combo and is a DPS increase.

I’m sure we’ll get leviathan, shiva, and ramuh next expansion.

Maybe there’s some kind of % chance that your gems will be “upgraded”. Ruby would change to diamond. Shiva would be a slight upgrade to ifrit with some kind of twist. Maybe you have to use it next or you lose it. This would force people to make decisions about whether the next mechanic will allow them to safely use the upgraded gem.

SE is moving away from DoTs altogether. I wouldn’t be surprised if all jobs lose them by 7.0.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I just don’t think they’re going to start from scratch again. I think we’ll get changes to the system they’ve created.

I think going forward it needs to becoming a proc based caster.

They could for instance add another astral flow type ability that would differ per phase and be proc based. It would add a third button to the rotation, and would give you something to manage. Maybe for titan it as a 3 to your 1-2 combo and is a DPS increase.

I’m sure we’ll get leviathan, shiva, and ramuh next expansion.

Maybe there’s some kind of % chance that your gems will be “upgraded”. Ruby would change to diamond. Shiva would be a slight upgrade to ifrit with some kind of twist. Maybe you have to use it next or you lose it. This would force people to make decisions about whether the next mechanic will allow them to safely use the upgraded gem.

SE is moving away from DoTs altogether. I wouldn’t be surprised if all jobs lose them by 7.0.

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I’d rather not focus on getting attached to constant reskins of barebones gameplay (Levi/Ramuh/Shiva) or borrowing mechanics from other jobs when we had a functional and more importantly scalable kit in Shadowbringers that could have also supported this rework inside of it. Furthermore, I want actual factual pet mechanics, not superfluous bloat that is worse than what DoTs and Bane provided (procs) and the Resummons are the primary thing in the way of that. If they don’t go that can’t happen at all. Carbuncles are the future of the job, not Avatars.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

I’d rather not focus on getting attached to constant reskins of barebones gameplay (Levi/Ramuh/Shiva) or borrowing mechanics from other jobs when we had a functional and more importantly scalable kit in Shadowbringers that could have also supported this rework inside of it. Furthermore, I want actual factual pet mechanics, not superfluous bloat that is worse than what DoTs and Bane provided (procs) and the Resummons are the primary thing in the way of that. If they don’t go that can’t happen at all. Carbuncles are the future of the job, not Avatars.

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Hate to break this to you but you never going to get factual pet mechanics or even a full pet job. They have been trying for YEARS to get the pet ai to work and every time they never can get it to work. One of the reasons why we got the smn we have now is because the pet system and old smn as a whole were at a breaking point. Also, yoshi P has said before how much he dislikes pet jobs. So if you holding out for smn to be reworked AGAIN to be a pet class then you be waiting forever and it might be best to move on from that. I said this in another thread but I think it best for them to focus on the current smn and make it better rather than throwing out everything they have done and starting over. You never going to get your perfect pet job smn, at least not with the ff14 dev team. Also, a lot of us are just tired of the rework after rework smn gets and rather the dev team stick to one version of smn and improve upon it. Hitting a reset every time isn't going to make the job better or move it forward.

Game engine just can't handle pets on their server loads. XIV as is will never have pet jobs. Only pet jobs you'll ever see is WHM/SCH/AST/SGE you'll have a whole lot of pets to manage then. And sometimes not even that when the WAR pet is your best Pet to use in the game right now. Make sure to keep your DRK pets stabled tho.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Hate to break this to you but you never going to get factual pet mechanics or even a full pet job. They have been trying for YEARS to get the pet ai to work and every time they never can get it to work. One of the reasons why we got the smn we have now is because the pet system and old smn as a whole were at a breaking point. Also, yoshi P has on record how much he dislikes pet jobs. So if you holding out for smn to be reworked AGAIN to be a pet class then you be waiting forever and it might be best to move on from that. I said this in another thread but I think it best for them to focus on the current smn and make it better rather than throwing out everything they have done and starting over. You never going to get your perfect pet job smn, at least not with the ff14 dev team. Also, a lot of us are just tired of the rework after rework smn gets and rather the dev team stick to one version of smn and improve upon it. Hitting a reset every time isn't going to make the job better or move it forward.

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Play scholar and tell me that again. We’ve had it since Shadowbringers as far as I’m concerned. The resummon mechanic is the thing getting in the way of that. Rework avatars to still work while carby is out (either by making them normal spell animations or figuring out how to implement Reaper tech on pets), and we can do it. I haven’t considered that a valid excuse since launch.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Play scholar and tell me that again. We’ve had it fiancé Shadowbringers as far as I’m concerned. The resummon mechanic is the thing getting in the way of that. Rework avatars to still work while carby is out (either by making them normal spell animations or figuring out how to implement Reaper tech on pets), and we can do it. I haven’t considered that a valid excuse since launch.

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Ok, what new pet things did sch get in EW? Also I'm pretty sure the fairy is just there for the most part at least that I always got from what my sch in my static. If any sch mains read this please enlight me, how much impact does the fairy has on your job? As I said you can continue to hope for a pet job in smn but I don't think you ever will get it at all.

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

Ok, what new pet things did sch get in EW? Also I'm pretty sure the fairy is just there for the most part at least that I always got from what my sch in my static. If any sch mains read this please enlight me, how much impact does the fairy has on your job? As I said you can continue to hope for a pet job in smn but I don't think you ever will get it at all.

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They got actions that go off within a GCD as opposed to within two. That is a QoL tune up that actually allows for real rotations to be implemented on ranged pets like the fairy (melee pets still have the major issue of needing to chase down their target, which is STILL observable on the Egi version of the avatars).The issue of back to back pet actions is still there but dramatically reduced.

My ideal version of Summoner gives carbuncle a core rotation that generates equivalent resources to those gems for the avatars rather than the Demi, while using lesser versions of their attacks as oGCDs that coincide with our spells. The Demi-Summons by contrast get bundled together with Aetherflow to make a cohesive burst phase. The Aetherflow Actions should be upgraded into Demi-Actions and Bahamut/Phoenix should use the gauge differently from one another once Fester/Painflare are gone. The Demi-Summon component has been something I’ve wanted in some form since Stormblood, as I felt the number of Akh Morns we got was lackluster and it easily could be the core of the Bahamut Phase in particular.

I’m also not a fan of Astral Flow/Impulse. They just feel lacking compared to Ruin III, so something should be improved with them.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

They got actions that go off within a GCD as opposed to within two. That is a QoL tune up that actually allows for real rotations to be implemented on ranged pets like the fairy (melee pets still have the major issue of needing to chase down their target, which is STILL observable on the Egi version of the avatars).The issue of back to back pet actions is still there but dramatically reduced.

My ideal version of Summoner gives carbuncle a core rotation that generates equivalent resources to those gems for the avatars rather than the Demi, while using lesser versions of their attacks as oGCDs that coincide with our spells. The Demi-Summons by contrast get bundled together with Aetherflow to make a cohesive burst phase. The Aetherflow Actions should be upgraded into Demi-Actions and Bahamut/Phoenix should use the gauge differently from one another once Fester/Painflare are gone. The Demi-Summon component has been something I’ve wanted in some form since Stormblood, as I felt the number of Akh Morns we got was lackluster and it easily could be the core of the Bahamut Phase in particular.

I’m also not a fan of Astral Flow/Impulse. They just feel lacking compared to Ruin III, so something should be improved with them.

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I still stand by what I have said, you never get an ideal pet job in 14 since the devs or engine just can't do it. I'm sorry but you or I am are not devs, we don't know what the limits are to the 14's engine. I just what I have seen over the pass 4 years of smn and they have always have had issues with pets and now it seems like they just want to move forward with a system they can actually get working in 14's engine and servers. That's why I believe yoshi p when he said old smn was at a breaking point and needed a rework, because he does not more about that stuff than me or you. You may not like this smn but personally, I believe the dev team does like the system they have came up with. So instead of asking for another whole rework that most likely be a disappointment because all smn reworks have been so far, I rather them focus on making improvements on this new smn. This argument isn't going anyway with you so all I have to say is you are free to keep wishing for your ideal summoner for 14 but I really don't think you ever will see a full focus pet job version of smn moving forward. Just because you believe the future of smn is Carbuncles doesn't mean much since you are not a dev and dont understand the engine they are working with. Have a nice day. o/

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Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

I still stand by what I have said, you never get an ideal pet job in 14 since the devs or engine just can't do it. I'm sorry but you or I am are not devs, we don't know what the limits are to the 14's engine. I just what I have seen over the pass 4 years of smn and they have always have had issues with pets and now it seems like they just want to move forward with a system they can actually get working in 14's engine and servers. That's why I believe yoshi p when he said old smn was at a breaking point and needed a rework, because he does not more about that stuff than me or you. You may not like this smn but personally, I believe the dev team does like the system they have came up with. So instead of asking for another whole rework that most likely be a disappointment because all smn reworks have been so far, I rather them focus on making improvements on this new smn. This argument isn't going anyway with you so all I have to say is you are free to keep wishing for your ideal summoner for 14 but I really don't think you ever will see a full focus pet job version of smn moving forward. Just because you believe the future of smn is Carbuncles doesn't mean much since you are not a dev and dont understand the engine they are working with. Have a nice day. o/

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If you've only been here 4 you only really got to see Stormblood make the inconsistency of the older AI more obvious. It has seen tangible improvements in both Shadowbringers and Endwalker for high ping players (250+) like myself. I agree that Stormblood's mechanics were bad, but only because the way the AI functioned did not allow them to work. If we had Stormblood Summoner's kit with current Endwalker pet AI it would work. That's how much of a shift it has undergone. And you'd know that if you had been here since ARR. The shifts have always been there.

I really wouldn't mind it being moved down.

That said, they would probably need to tone it down at lower levels. SMN already dumpsters older content.

Might be better to move it down just so you have spells that don't look like Ruin 3 for 70 levels. I think that's the primary issue that players hate seeing Ruin 3 for 2 different spells.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Might be better to move it down just so you have spells that don't look like Ruin 3 for 70 levels. I think that's the primary issue that players hate seeing Ruin 3 for 2 different spells.

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Those spells still do have different potencies and cast times, so they’re not the same actions, but it is aesthetically weird to see similar icons and names at lower levels, yeah.