Patch 6.08 paladin buffs

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Spirits Within Potency has been increased from 250 to 270.
Expiacion Potency has been increased from 300 to 340.
Blade of Faith Potency has been increased from 250 to 420.
Blade of Truth Potency has been increased from 350 to 500.
Blade of Valor Potency has been increased from 420 to 580.

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My two cents:

1. The size of the buff is appropriate. PLD needed at least this much of a DPS buff
2. Paladin also has proper burst now, a perennial issue with the job
3. For all the good things about the buff, Paladin is going to destroy dungeon trash now. It already was approaching DPS numbers on big pulls if you opened with Requiescat. It may be almost as broken as WAR in dungeons now.

Quick napkin maths, this buff is pretty sizeable, should put PLD ~ GNB levels of dps.

And yes, AoE in dungeons from PLD will be very strong.

Edit: More detailed maths, 560 extra potency per 60s. I think it will end up between WAR & GNB, not quite GNB levels. Which is fine really. At least the blade combo will pack some punch and feel more satisfying to use.

I mean, this still doesn't get rid of that cursed opener, I don't think. Nor the fact that Atonement is virtually worthless.

Would this buff to the blade combo make Req + Confi openers more viable now?

It's far too late at night for me to actually do anything resembling math, so I'll just say this: I sure as hell hope so. -16s FoF is the dumbest thing I've subjected myself to for the sake of DPS in years. My gut feeling is no, though. The reason for that cursed opener is to get our stuff lined up with raid buff windows (which ultimately fails since we eventually slide out of alignment anyway even under optimal conditions and perfect play), and I don't think Req +Confi as an opener is going to circumvent the issue.

I don't like the buff.
The thing I liked about PLD was his consistent DMG output without the need of a party buff stacked burst window.
I could basically do my own thing and make the fight as comfortable as I want.

Also, he is still extremely weak for older ultimates.

This is NUTS on single target, it is a 7.5 dps increase. Bonkers!

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

The size of the buff is appropriate. PLD needed at least this much of a DPS buff

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Not really, and it still does need another DPS buff.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

Paladin also has proper burst now, a perennial issue with the job

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This isn't a burst, it's way too late in the window to be considered a burst, the raid buff windows will be long gone before this come in fruition, what was needed is Atonements adjust far above Reqs + Holy, and Blades adjusted, congrats, starts putting a fight on Gnb/Drk.

6+ seconds in Raid buffs start, Paladin enters Reqs + Holy, which is another 10+ seconds, then Blades of Faith > (Raid buffs gone, falling off) > Blades of Truth > Blades of Faith. It's aimed at the wrong section. Atonements should've been tuned up around 700, Blades tuned a little higher instead of mass, Paladins 1st issue fixed, has a set burst area.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

For all the good things about the buff, Paladin is going to destroy dungeon trash now. It already was approaching DPS numbers on big pulls if you opened with Requiescat. It may be almost as broken as WAR in dungeons now.

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The buff helps for Dungeons, but honestly who cares about Dungeons... War is still going to remain the king of Dungeons. And raid wise, War/Gnb/Drk are still going to outclass the job.

Definitely feels like they put all their eggs in one basket with this one, just dumping huge amounts of potency on the blade combo. It feels like they could have spread the potency out a little more, like buffing atonement as others have said.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Not really, and it still does need another DPS buff.



This isn't a burst, it's way too late in the window to be considered a burst, the raid buff windows will be long gone before this come in fruition, what was needed is Atonements adjust far above Reqs + Holy, and Blades adjusted, congrats, starts putting a fight on Gnb/Drk.

6+ seconds in Raid buffs start, Paladin enters Reqs + Holy, which is another 10+ seconds, then Blades of Faith > (Raid buffs gone, falling off) > Blades of Truth > Blades of Faith. It's aimed at the wrong section. Atonements should've been tuned up around 700, Blades tuned a little higher instead of mass, Paladins 1st issue fixed, has a set burst area.



The buff helps for Dungeons, but honestly who cares about Dungeons... War is still going to remain the king of Dungeons. And raid wise, War/Gnb/Drk are still going to outclass the job.

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Why can't they just remove the requirement to end the magic phase with the Blade spells? Allow it to just take 1 stack after the initial start of the cast rotation where at which point you can align at any point.

PLD is still the weakest and not far behind DRK, WAR and GNB.
SE needs to rebalance correctly and increase the PLD's DPS.

I'm a bit surprised they didn't raise the potency of Spirits Within more than that. Considering it's one of the lower level abilities, I'd think a potency of 350-380 would be nice for leveling.

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Originally Posted by FateRu

PLD is still the weakest and not far behind DRK, WAR and GNB.
SE needs to rebalance correctly and increase the PLD's DPS.

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So you'd only be happy if PLD was above and beyond the other tanks?

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

So you'd only be happy if PLD was above and beyond the other tanks?

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The PLD does not have to be above the other tanks.
However, we believe that the best situation is to balance DPS difference between the 4 tanks within 2-3%.

Looks like he is on par with WAR now.
That's okay.
DRK has low self sustain but great dmg.
GNB is extremely busy with all the ogcds with good sustain. So a good 2nd spot.
WAR has great sustain, Holm and burst so he is on 3rd place.
PLD has a additional party DMG reduce and the most healer friendly invuln. A deserved shared 3rd place for DMG.

I think the tanks are now fine.
DRK just need some qol changes.

Sustain doesn't really matter for tanks in high tier content, it makes no difference with BIS, and having more mitigation only matters in progression content, otherwise it's useless, dungeon wise it doesn't matter. Having extra mitigation, self healing isn't going to launch their pick rates for the Savage/Ultimate raids, once people figure out a better consistency, it becomes pointless playing the job. Highest DPS roles vs their other counterpart jobs are going to be crushed by their DPS levels.

You could say tanking should matter first, except that's how they've always been designed, DPS focused. It's why Warrior has only been good in progression content, since SHBs, carries Dungeons, useless for anything else, Drk/Gnb do the job far better.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

Sustain doesn't really matter for tanks in high tier content, it makes no difference with BIS, and having more mitigation only matters in progression content, otherwise, it's useless, dungeon wise it doesn't matter. Having extra mitigation, self-healing isn't going to launch their pick rates for the Savage/Ultimate raids, once people figure out a better consistency, it becomes pointless playing the job. Highest DPS roles vs their other counterpart jobs are going to be crushed by their DPS levels.

You could say tanking should matter first, except that's how they've always been designed, DPS focused. It's why Warrior has only been good in progression content, since SHBs, carries Dungeons, useless for anything else, Drk/Gnb do the job far better.

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I'd say in a controlled environment and where the boss doesn't hit that hard it doesn't matter. With PUGs and dungeons, it probably matters.

As for the warrior spill. So you're telling me that they dominate every aspect of the game, but doesn't matter on speed runs where DRK and GNB help speed the run up a bit? K.

As for the PLD buffs....meh.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

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People always talk like this sort of thing doesn't matter at all, but then when you ask them if they'd want to give up their sustain, mitigation, utility, or ranged uptime advantages in exchange for a couple hundred extra dps, they backpedal hard. Bottom line is, any tanking advantage is helpful in progression. Numbers wise, all tanks are within a few hundred dps of each other, which is on par with what we've seen in Shadowbringers, and you aren't the main star of that show anyways. And when you were choosing a tank, were you surprised that the sword and board tank was higher on utility and slightly lower on dps? I think that it's reasonable to ask for ways in which your rotation and opener could be improved on without giving PLD a dps advantage, but it sounds like you're starting to become a little too greedy.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

People always talk like this sort of thing doesn't matter at all, but then when you ask them if they'd want to give up their sustain, mitigation, utility, or ranged uptime advantages in exchange for a couple hundred extra dps, they backpedal hard.

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It really doesn't matter in current content, high I-levels removes any need of self heals, mitigation issues. Current Savage fights, there's no "Ranged Advantage", the bosses hitboxes are enormous except the door boss, and are practical mechanical dummies. The utility GNB/DRK output are so strong, War/Pld get laughed at.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Bottom line is, any tanking advantage is helpful in progression.

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That's what I said?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Numbers wise, all tanks are within a few hundred dps of each other, which is on par with what we've seen in Shadowbringers, and you aren't the main star of that show anyways.

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Pld runs on rDPS, still, War/Drk/Gnb run on aDPS because of their toolkit are based to syncing raid buffs, Gnb/Drk take outputs far higher than War, and their utility outclass it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

And when you were choosing a tank, were you surprised that the sword and board tank was higher on utility and slightly lower on dps? I think that it's reasonable to ask for ways in which your rotation and opener could be improved on without giving PLD a dps advantage, but it sounds like you're starting to become a little too greedy.

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I'm not asking for a DPS advantage, christ, I'm suggesting a job fix that fixes it's biggest problems. -16 FoF opener (Before starting fight) being the strongest opener is dumb, and Paladin de-syncs faster on raid buffs because of it's abundance of Spell Speed, compared to SHBs Paladin, and SHBs Pld could only contest Drk in 5.4. Blades buffs is well too late in it's rotation for raid buffs, and Atonements now much more weaker vs the magic combo is even more dumb, it worked in SHBs because Atonement > Holy. Paladin can competitive GNB/DRK (not defeat) using proper fixed rotation. Warrior could use a little help too, but I would still suggest Bloodwhetting is change to 1 per GCD cast, not target hit.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Looks like he is on par with WAR now.
That's okay.
DRK has low self sustain but great dmg.
GNB is extremely busy with all the ogcds with good sustain. So a good 2nd spot.
WAR has great sustain, Holm and burst so he is on 3rd place.
PLD has a additional party DMG reduce and the most healer friendly invuln. A deserved shared 3rd place for DMG.

I think the tanks are now fine.
DRK just need some qol changes.

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There are other factors. Recovering from death for example, every tank other than GNB is great at this, with GNB it's truly suffering not only do you lose cartridges your CDs go out of sync terribly.

Also, no the tanks right now are a mess and it's not just DRK that needs changes.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

People always talk like this sort of thing doesn't matter at all, but then when you ask them if they'd want to give up their sustain, mitigation, utility, or ranged uptime advantages in exchange for a couple hundred extra dps, they backpedal hard. Bottom line is, any tanking advantage is helpful in progression. Numbers wise, all tanks are within a few hundred dps of each other, which is on par with what we've seen in Shadowbringers, and you aren't the main star of that show anyways. And when you were choosing a tank, were you surprised that the sword and board tank was higher on utility and slightly lower on dps? I think that it's reasonable to ask for ways in which your rotation and opener could be improved on without giving PLD a dps advantage, but it sounds like you're starting to become a little too greedy.

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All things considered, PLD's DPS is too low to be considered a problem.

PLD's have strengths that other tanks don't have.
So, PLD's DPS should be fine. It went up too much.

It is better to raise the DPS of GNB and WAR.

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Originally Posted by Lucia_E

PLD's have strengths that other tanks don't have.
So, PLD's DPS should be fine. It went up too much.

It is better to raise the DPS of GNB and WAR.

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GNB/DRK/WAR are all over Paladin.

https://c.tenor.com/3iN3Se4tM8kAAAAC/what-queeee.gif

Feels good to have more dmg in the sword combo, feels good to have as much mitigation as PLD does for dungeon pulls, feels good that its all straight forward with 0 mana issues for any content.

Everyone talking about DPS in Savage ( Where your tank DPS isn't going to matter in a clear anyway ) You are talking about the smallest minority of players. That small minority already plays ONLY what is top DPS, the class feeling good in dungeons, or normal means nothing to you. If you elected yourself to be a part of that crowd of hardcore progression you already gave up your right to "Play what you like" and are slotted to the meta.

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Originally Posted by Lucia_E

PLD's have strengths that other tanks don't have.
So, PLD's DPS should be fine. It went up too much.

It is better to raise the DPS of GNB and WAR.

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Care to elaborate on this a little? Because, at present, PLD doesn't do anything a different job can't do better. Its only real niche is found in its ability to serve as a temporary backup healer, but it's almost definitely already a wipe if you've reached the point of the PLD having to Clemency people in any kind of raid environment.

I hope the Devs are taking note of how there’s a portion of the tank community that wants PLD to be conformed to a pecking order. Actively wants to hold PLD dps down low so that “their” favorite class can rise , why do you think that is? There’s this straw man argument that PLD has way more defensiveness which is false. Meanwhile DRK with its low defensive kit still leads PLD by around 1000 dps in some fights , that’s like 1/6 more damage in some cases. I’ll never be asking to do more dps than other tanks but rather we need equality. The only thing different about tanks should be in play style not in dps , were all doing the same job of mitigation and dps there should never be this much gap unless we start getting group dps buffs like 1/2 the healers have to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Lucia_E

PLD's have strengths that other tanks don't have.
So, PLD's DPS should be fine. It went up too much.

It is better to raise the DPS of GNB and WAR.

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He has a funny way of telling jokes.;)

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

GNB/DRK/WAR are all over Paladin.

https://c.tenor.com/3iN3Se4tM8kAAAAC/what-queeee.gif

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It's rather disingenuous, if not flatly incorrect, to lump WAR in with GNB and DRK.

Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Valknut

Everyone talking about DPS in Savage ( Where your tank DPS isn't going to matter in a clear anyway )

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I can discount pretty much the entirety of this post from this line without bothering to read the rest. I find it strange that secondaries tend to elect their opinions when it doesn't fit the content they do on a daily basis. At least it feels good, right? :)

Tank DPS doesn't matter, eh?
Anyone that has ever wiped to an enrage might disagree with that assessment.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tank DPS doesn't matter, eh?
Anyone that has ever wiped to an enrage might disagree with that assessment.

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If you wipe at a margin where having different tank job would have made up the DPS, then at least one person in the raid had a screw-up that cost several times that.

It's funny. There were fortnightly numbers posted up for the tanks back in Stormblood, at a point where DRK was at significantly bigger dps disadvantage, on top of having massive disadvantages in limit break generation, utility, and general gameplay, and we were unilaterally told to ignore the data and just live with it. And now you're complaining about the tanks sitting in a relatively tight balance of a few hundred dps, on top of PLD and WAR being generally safer and more comfy to play. What dps difference would be acceptable to you? And what defensive and utility buffs would you be willing to give up, and what disadvantages would you be willing to place yourself at to get it? Perhaps that should be your starting point.

Honestly, ideally tank balance shouldn't include DPS trade-offs at all. That's not the point of the role, and since mitigation needs to be sufficient regardless, any notable lead will make that tank the meta tank. But I agree, now that everyone is within a couple hundred potency of each other there's no real issue. No group in existence fails an enrage and blames a tank for doing <1% less damage for it, that's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

That's not the point of the role, and since mitigation needs to be sufficient regardless, any notable lead will make that tank the meta tank.

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DRK/GNB are meta tanks because of their outputs, and crazy burst, except DRK being far greater. Wars problem is not enough moves in their burst, only very big hits, Pld has a rotation problem and lacks burst power. Pld/War may have higher self heals, or Pld may have more consistent damage mitigations, but higher ilvl gear makes these irrelevant, and as you said, DPS numbers will always be dominant.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

DRK/GNB are meta tanks because of their outputs, and crazy burst, except DRK being far greater. Wars problem is not enough moves in their burst, only very big hits, Pld has a rotation problem and lacks burst power. Pld/War may have higher self heals, or Pld may have more consistent damage mitigations, but higher ilvl gear makes these irrelevant, and as you said, DPS numbers will always be dominant.

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Which leads me to a sad position because I have been always PLD main and in ShB added the GNB… Devs. Should start to balance the content more around the mechanics and not the DPS now that they downscale the things.
But again that is my idea and I know people are strongly against it.