What’s the point of Physick for Summoner?

Note that I’m specifically talking about the spell for Arcanist and Summoner, not the more useful version that Scholar has.

I think with the exception of maybe the first few dungeons, this spell heals an absolutely pitiful percentage of HP and generally isn’t worth using, so one possibility could be just to remove what’s currently a mostly useless spell from the job like how Fluid Aura was finally removed from White Mage this expansion. However, considering that Red Mage gets to have a cure spell that’s actually pretty useful across various instances, I would prefer that Summoner’s cure spell instead be significantly buffed in healing potency or based off some other magic trait altogether.

I was excited that the spell might finally be useful after seeing it on the director’s hotbar during one of the Endwalker presentations, but that sadly didn’t seem to be the case. Can any developers shine a light on why the spell hasn’t either been removed or matched Red Mage’s useful equivalent yet? Thanks a lot to anyone who read this thread by the way!

To proc Paladins Divine Veil of course! I'm not casting a GCD for that, sorry /s

I would say it's mostly useful for new players when starting the game solo as an arcanist, until level 30 or so. A low level tool, I guess.

I say that,but it's a real wonder why it hasn't gotten deleted yet.

I seriously doubt you'll get an answer from a developer, as they don't post on the forums here (or anywhere).

Resurrection is also a part of the Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar toolkit. You get that at level 12. Both serve to get the player used to the idea that healing might be a possibility at the job split at level 30, where Scholar becomes a healer.

The same argument you use for Physick could be used to remove Resurrection. Why should a DPS who doesn't utilize white magicks (aka Red Mage) heal or resurrect? Not sure if every summoner out there would object, but I could see a number of the complaining about the reduction in yet another of their skillsets.

It always comes up in these topics that Physick is just a holdover from Scholar and Summoner being linked, but it must also be noted that when you look at Scholar's Actions & Traits tab, the only skill under the "Class" section is Resurrection.

Which means that Scholar's Physick and Arcanist/Summoner's Physick use separate IDs, much like their Energy Drain and Ruin II skills. The major part that confuses the two is that they share the same description (up to level 85 anyway).

However, it's dreadfully obvious that one job just uses a copy-paste of the other's Physick, given that both versions use Mind as their main stat, so that Summoner's has no value. There's no reason for Summoner to have a Mind-based ability.

Not everything needs to accommodate raiding, there's also solo content.
Self sustain is important for things like PotD/HoH.

BLM has manaward, RDM has vercure, SMN has physick.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Not everything needs to accommodate raiding, there's also solo content.
Self sustain is important for things like PotD/HoH.

BLM has manaward, RDM has vercure, SMN has physick.

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Tell me you never used Physick outside ARR content without telling me you never used Physick outside ARR content.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

BLM has manaward, RDM has vercure, SMN has physick.

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Ehhh. SMN has Radiant Aegis for that trio, actually. SMN still just gets +Int from upgrades in PotD/HoH, so Physick is still awful in them.

I mean, I'm all for BLM getting Drain for self-sustain in solo content (given the long CD on Manaward) and SMN getting a useful iteration of/alternative to Physick on top of that -- but let's not overstate its usefulness.

To make you cry in the same corner RDM used to be condemned to because of you.

To get highlight reels on SICKPHYSICKCRITZ.com

Physick isn't even very desirable on Scholar. It's literally the very last tool you use if absolutely nothing else is available and healing is needed immediately. The fact Summoner shares the worst heal from Scholar and an incredibly worse version at that is peak comedy. Summoner has been long overdue for a rework or removal for Physick. We could do so many cool things with traits to make it worthwhile. Make it instant cast, provide an increased healing received buff on target, it could be a delayed heal to use during down time that procs when the targets health drops. It could do absolutely anything except being a waste of time like it always has been.

to give the "at least you tried" feeling when healer die and you cast physick to tank instead of using revive spell to healer.

seriously though? no idea lol

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Not everything needs to accommodate raiding, there's also solo content.
Self sustain is important for things like PotD/HoH.

BLM has manaward, RDM has vercure, SMN has physick.

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This is like saying healing potions are okay when I think the highest they go is what....4800? At high quality?

Very least they could give it a numbers buff or regen effect for Solo content use.

Honestly I’d be happy if they just keep it exactly the same but scaling off Int. It’s not stepping on Red Mage’s toes since it can’t be Dualcast or chained into insta-Raise so I don’t think it’d be balance breaking. Maybe increase the MP cost if they think it’d be too powerful otherwise

just bump the cure potency by crazy margin like 1200 potency (heal about half of your hp or something) but with long cooldown like 60 seconds so not to feel "samey" with RDM cure

Since Physick is an ACN spell and essential for SCH ARR leveling experience, the only way to "remove" it would be by replacing with another spell via trait. Quickest fix would be the "same" spell with a different name and actually scaling from SMN's main stat: INT.

Food for thought:

Isn't SCH and SMN Physick 2 separate instances now?

I remember back when Stormblood released, I went to check on my SMN and the Physick was greyed out on my hotbars. I thought the spell was removed... only to find it "intact" on my spellbook. I instantly thought they created a different instance of Physick for SMN, scaling properly with INT.

Also, to confirm this suspicion: https://garlandtools.org/db/#action/16230
https://i.imgur.com/aHcbSLW.png

Garlandtools database shows two separate instances of Physick, one for SCH and another one for SMN/ACN.

If this is truly the case, why SMN's physick still scales with MND rendering it useless in any kind of situation?

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Food for thought:

Isn't SCH and SMN Physick 2 separate instances now?

I remember back when Stormblood released, I went to check on my SMN and the Physick was greyed out on my hotbars. I thought the spell was removed... only to find it "intact" on my spellbook. I instantly thought they created a different instance of Physick for SMN, scaling properly with INT.

Also, to confirm this suspicion: https://garlandtools.org/db/#action/16230
https://i.imgur.com/aHcbSLW.png

Garlandtools database shows two separate instances of Physick, one for SCH and another one for SMN/ACN.

If this is truly the case, why SMN's physick still scales with INT rendering it useless in any kind of situation?

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Because SCH one is just the same spell except with a SCH trait on top of it that only increases potency. And it's the other way around: SMN's physic still doesn't scale with INT, which is it's main stat. Physic scales with MND.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Because SCH one is just the same spell except with a SCH trait on top of it that only increases potency. And it's the other way around: SMN's physic still doesn't scale with INT, which is it's main stat. Physic scales with MND.

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Scholar spells have had completely different IDs and mechanics since Shadowbringers, so no, they could just move Physick into the Scholar-spell section along with where Bio and Bio II were moved and where Ruin I and II have sat for two years being different spells than what Summoner gets.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I seriously doubt you'll get an answer from a developer, as they don't post on the forums here (or anywhere).

Resurrection is also a part of the Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar toolkit. You get that at level 12. Both serve to get the player used to the idea that healing might be a possibility at the job split at level 30, where Scholar becomes a healer.

The same argument you use for Physick could be used to remove Resurrection. Why should a DPS who doesn't utilize white magicks (aka Red Mage) heal or resurrect? Not sure if every summoner out there would object, but I could see a number of the complaining about the reduction in yet another of their skillsets.

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The difference is that res is a useful skill from the point you get it until max level. You use it in level 90 dungeons and extremes and even in raids as a last resort. Res is often mentioned as summoners "tool" that makes it the lowest magic dps now, next to its extreme low complexity of spell rotation.

In addition red mage also has a healing spell and is never turned to healer... and even though it has a longer cd and lower potency time, the RDM spell is 100% more useful for the single reason that summoner Physick scales with Mind, while summoners main stat is Intelligence so this spell never scales... for red mage this is not the situation, the heal is actually potent and is used by people.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Because SCH one is just the same spell except with a SCH trait on top of it that only increases potency. And it's the other way around: SMN's physic still doesn't scale with INT, which is it's main stat. Physic scales with MND.

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Oh, I wrote it wrong, I meant to say that still scales with MND in the end. Gonna fix it.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

The difference is that res is a useful skill from the point you get it until max level. You use it in level 90 dungeons and extremes and even in raids as a last resort. Res is often mentioned as summoners "tool" that makes it the lowest magic dps now, next to its extreme low complexity of spell rotation.

In addition red mage also has a healing spell and is never turned to healer... and even though it has a longer cd and lower potency time, the RDM spell is 100% more useful for the single reason that summoner Physick scales with Mind, while summoners main stat is Intelligence so this spell never scales... for red mage this is not the situation, the heal is actually potent and is used by people.

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Plus, adding to that, Vercure will always be more useful than a Physick scaled with INT simply because of the fact that RDM got dualcast.
The niches that you would use both spells are emergency situations, and you'd probably have to cast a few back to back in that case.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Why should a DPS who doesn't utilize white magicks (aka Red Mage) heal or resurrect? Not sure if every summoner out there would object, but I could see a number of the complaining about the reduction in yet another of their skillsets.

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I'm trying to think of it logically. Red mages use a balancing act of using both white and black magic to create "Red Magic," which lorewise, means accelerating the black and white mana generated with movement of the body as the medium to create powerful spells.

As a DPS, we're just more inclined to use 'offensively-oriented white magic. Red Mages still have access to white healing magic too (Vercure, magick barrier, verraise), but not so much that it will step on an actual healer's toes and become a healer over a DPS. Lorewise, we also don't have an abundance of aether to draw healing magic from, as we are limited by our own aether reserves instead of using aether from nature like White Mages. Even conjury borrowed aether of the surroundings, albeit at a small amount. I guess in that respect, using your own aether to fuel your spells like in Thaumaturgy can justify using INT over MND since you're manipulating your base aether and not an external source of aether. After all, WHM, AST, SCH, and SGE all use external aether in some way to heal - WHM drawing power of nature/earth to fuel their spells. AST drawing power of celestial/astral aether to fuel their spells. SCH and SGE uses a focus/foci (their book /nouliths) to soak up the surrounding aether and create a healing formation. For other casters, they strengthen their ability by manipulating aether in specific ways. Black Mage uses their aether to manipulate external aether to strengthen their spells (hence untrained Black Mages can potentially self immolate without proper control). Summoners utilize primal aether by attuning to it and storing the power in gems. I figure lore-wise, this is specifically why we can heal as a SMN only during Phoenix phase - because Phoenix is the only primal that has healing powers due to its ability of rebirth.


For a more reasonable explanation on why SMN's Physick still scaled on MND, it's probably a combination of old coding factors & class decisions. ACN is originally a job where players can choose to either be a SMN or a SCH. As ACN, your stats went up equally in both INT and MND, so Physick still scaled quite well at the time. This is still applicable to ACN. Back then, egis & carbuncle also had a health bar. If you were to use titan egi, you could actively heal it while it tanked the enemy. Thus, there was a reason why ACN, and by extension SMN, had Physick. You could also manually assign and distribute points too. That's no longer applicable.

After job changing, your stats would go up in INT as a SMN or in MND as a healer. In the olden days, there was a thing called Cleric Stance. It swapped a healer's MND to INT. When you wanted to heal as a SCH, you'd turn off cleric stance. Then when you wanted to do damage, because the skills scaled with INT, you'd turn Cleric stance on. That is also no longer applicable.

Then, SE wanted to split up SCH and SMN (hence the jobs having less and less shared skills in common. By ShB, SCH lost Bane from ACN and energy drain worked differently (Aetherflow was basically ACN Energy Drain while SCH Energy Drain spent aetherflow). By Endwalker, SMN and SCH no longer have any shared skills outside of Resurrection. Even Physick is technically stored differently even though both skills scales on MND.) This is also the only reason these 2 jobs have the same base class, and no other jobs share a base class with another job - they didn't want to design 2 jobs that shared base skills but branched off in their own way.

Even in Endwalker expansion, the devs mentioned how they thought of getting rid of Ressurrection from SMN, but decided not to. From this viewpoint, it can be seen that they really want to see SMN and SCH as two separate jobs, but the ACN base class tying them together prevents that, so they're trying to make SMN more of their standalone job and leaving SCH with Physick instead if the player decides to change from ACN to a healer job.

Simply put, SMN was never meant to have Physick at this point in time, but because it shared a base class with SCH in ACN as a healer, it still kept Physick and Resurrection by that token for lore.

iam confused why smn even has res spell to begin with. yes i know they come from arcanist which can become scholar but personally, i think when they reach smn, res shouldnt be there, or at least should have long cooldown.

i can understand RDM being all rounder magic caster, but smn which supposedly a pure magic dps?

Simple. When the jobs were designed, they hadn't yet made all these changes to be able to fully separate the job skills. SCH unlocks at 30, but needed the standard raise at level 12 for synced content. So it had to be put on Arcanist. They've taken steps to nearly fully divide SCH and SMN now, but they're unlikely to just straight up remove a utility spell as valuable as a raise.

Every expansion sees them getting a little bit closer to completely breaking the two jobs apart. But it's hard to say if they'll ever fully get there due to the amount of extra work on the ARR end, probably mostly due to the shared books.

Maybe it has something to do with levelling Arcanist before you get any job stones. I don't think they queue as healers though so they wouldn't need a useful heal ability then either, but if you don't have any job stones yet and are levelling Arcanist for the first time then any traits SCH gives you would not be available. Where as later when you have a SCH stone equipped even when you sync down you could still have active traits from your job.

Nothing, remove it.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Nothing, remove it.

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Or better yet: upgrade it (through a Trait) into Rekindle, so you can use it whenever you want.
Preferably at the same time as you get Summon Phoenix (at Lv.80) so it fits thematically.

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Originally Posted by gumas

but smn which supposedly a pure magic dps?

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Summoner has always had a utility bent to it, whether it be the single target job-based titles, or FFXIV. In FF3, its spells were mostly utility until you upgraded your job, and in FF5, you had a handful of spells (Remora, Carbuncle, Golem, Phoenix) which were solid utility-based, including battle-rezzing. In its debut in FF14, Summoner and Scholar had Virus (with INT/MND redux), Eye for an Eye, and Rez in their kit, and while Eye for an Eye was eventually removed, it was replaced with Aetherpact/Shining Light.

So, that stuff's always been a part of SMN's DNA, and should be.

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

In addition red mage also has a healing spell and is never turned to healer...

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From a lore standpoint, red mages heal and resurrect because they use a combination of spells associated with white magick (healer) and black magic (casters). Summoner has no such lore.

Don't like how Physick works? Don't put it on your hot bar.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

From a lore standpoint, red mages heal and resurrect because they use a combination of spells associated with white magick (healer) and black magic (casters). Summoner has no such lore.

Don't like how Physick works? Don't put it on your hot bar.

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From a lore standpoint, Red Mages use a combination of (present-day) conjury and thaumaturgy.
They don't use actual white magick or black magick, as their practice has been "forbidden" (and/or available only to a select few).

As for Summoners being able to use Physick and Resurrection, it's because of Arcanist (integrating Summoner's knowledge into its repertoire).
As simple as that.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

From a lore standpoint, red mages heal and resurrect because they use a combination of spells associated with white magick (healer) and black magic (casters). Summoner has no such lore.

Don't like how Physick works? Don't put it on your hot bar.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

From a lore standpoint, Red Mages use a combination of (present-day) conjury and thaumaturgy.
They don't use actual white magick or black magick, as their practice has been "forbidden" (and/or available only to a select few).

As for Summoners being able to use Physick and Resurrection, it's because of Arcanist (integrating Summoner's knowledge into its repertoire).
As simple as that.

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Couple corrections.

White Magic was not developed originally because 'it's healing magic.' It was developed because umbral/Light spells were supereffective against the voidsent being summoned by Mhach, and it also included curative magics.

Summoning was developed as a means to usurp primal power and then use it against other primals. Some primals have healing capacity, so nothing in Summoner excludes that. A summoner using a Lakshmi-egi or Moggle Mog-egi would have healing powers without breaking a single iota of summoner lore, as would a Summoner seeped with Phoenix aether (so all of them in modern Eorzea). There is no such lore that contradicts a summoner being able to use healing powers, and that's before considering that arcanistry has that available.

As for Red Mages, they do not use modern conjury or thaumaturgy. They use a unique school of magic that follows very strict rules (the biggest being the only aether permitted to be used is personal aether, and waste aether from red magic) and both rules are broken by conjury and thaumaturgy.* The school was forged in isolation a long time ago, by mages attempting to deliberately learn how to Sylphie their white and black spells without suffering Sylphie-health-problems, and this was at the time VERY forbidden study because of that. The resulting magic carried a red tint to it (because it's cast from one's own health in the lore) and that's why it's called Red Magic. However, the practice of using white and black magic being forbidden is irrelevant because Red Magic was developed in secret and not within Gridania or Belah'diah, which is who forbid those practices. (There is no evidence to support or oppose Sharlayan forbidding those practices, for the record.)

*This is also why the only way RDM has to regenerate mana is Lucid Dreaming and mana ticks--they cannot draw from the land using Aetherflow or Umbral Ice or Assize, and cannot draw from other creatures using Energy Drain, Addersgall, or drawing from the celestial aether using cards. There is no way to replenish aether using Red Magick itself.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Summoning was developed as a means to usurp primal power and then use it against other primals. Some primals have healing capacity, so nothing in Summoner excludes that. A summoner using a Lakshmi-egi or Moggle Mog-egi would have healing powers without breaking a single iota of summoner lore, as would a Summoner seeped with Phoenix aether (so all of them in modern Eorzea). There is no such lore that contradicts a summoner being able to use healing powers, and that's before considering that arcanima has that available.

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FTFY (the official term is "arcanima").
Else, this is completely spot on.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

As for Red Mages, they do not use modern conjury or thaumaturgy. They use a unique school of magic that follows very strict rules (the biggest being the only aether permitted to be used is personal aether, and waste aether from red magic) and both rules are broken by conjury and thaumaturgy.* The school was forged in isolation a long time ago, by mages attempting to deliberately learn how to Sylphie their white and black spells without suffering Sylphie-health-problems, and this was at the time VERY forbidden study because of that. The resulting magic carried a red tint to it (because it's cast from one's own health in the lore) and that's why it's called Red Magic. However, the practice of using white and black magic being forbidden is irrelevant because Red Magic was developed in secret and not within Gridania or Belah'diah, which is who forbid those practices. (There is no evidence to support or oppose Sharlayan forbidding those practices, for the record.)

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1. To be precise, it was developed by the survivors of the 6th Umbral Calamity (mostly Amdapori and Mhachi), who set aside their differences in order to create a more "responsible" discipline in terms of aether consumption.
2. X'rhun did advise Arya to practice her conjury and thaumaturgy skills in order to get better at red magick. Ergo, they are compatible with it (if only to serve as a "starting point" of sorts).
3. White magick is currently restricted to the Padjal in Gridania while black magick used to be outright forbidden in Ul'dah until very recently (and even then, it's for "research purposes" and supervised by the Thaumaturge guild).

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

FTFY (the official term is "arcanima").
Else, this is completely spot on.

To be precise, it was developed by the survivors of the 6th Umbral Calamity (mostly Amdapori and Mhachi), who set aside their differences in order to create a more "responsible" discipline in terms of aether consumption.

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Correct, with the context that it was believed extant water aether from the overuse of non-water spells had contributed to aetheric imbalance which is why modern red magic focuses on never taking aether away from the environment, along with balancing the aether used.

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X'rhun did advise Arya to practice her conjury and thaumaturgy skills in order to get better at red magick. Ergo, they are compatible with it (if only to serve as a "starting point" of sorts).

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True, but it is important to note that it is because Red Magic is really hard, so having a solid grounding of magic fundamentals is just as necessary as the physically demanding parts of the job. So I do agree. But Red Magick itself is neither conjury nor thaumaturgy, it's its own thing. (The difficulty involved in learning it really shows how good Alisae actually is as a student of the arcane arts.)

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White magick is currently restricted to the Padjal in Gridania while black magick used to be outright forbidden in Ul'dah until very recently (and even then, it's for "research purposes" and supervised by the Thaumaturge guild).

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Aye. But this speaks nothing of Sharlayan law or any law outside the three main cities of the Eorzean Alliance. The Elementals of the Twelveswood most certainly don't have power reaching into the Peaks and the Crimson Duelists' Ziggaraut, even before the Garlean invasion. By the time the restrictions on White and Black were a major thing, Red Magic had already established itself as a distinct school in the same way astromancy is distinct from the other disciplines.

Wow, this just on my end?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...02/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

From a lore standpoint, Red Mages use a combination of (present-day) conjury and thaumaturgy.

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Note that RDM does in fact utilize variants of full blown white and black magick, per the job questline. The forbidden nature of those practices was circumvented the same way RDM's own forbidden nature was circumvented; utilization of one's own aether reserves rather than that of their surroundings.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Wow, this just on my end?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...02/unknown.png

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I fixed it, the list tag that got quoted made splitting the quote fail. Sorry about that!

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Note that RDM does in fact utilize variants of full blown white and black magick, per the job questline. The forbidden nature of those practices was circumvented the same way RDM's own forbidden nature was circumvented; utilization of one's own aether reserves rather than that of their surroundings.

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Not to mention the early refugees from Mhach and Amdapor was never under the jurisdiction or in the same geography as those that forbade those practices anyways. The proto-red-mages were operating in secret away from prying eyes on White and Black Magic, in Gyr Abania, and had no contact or connection with the Eorzean survivors of the flood, or their fellow refugees who went on to settle in the Northern Empty. By the time the proto-Red-Mages had come out with the fruits of their research, it no longer followed the aetheric principles of white or black magic. More importantly though, the Red Mages were dedicated to ensuring that their magic served the people, and by going around and using their new powers to help common folk alleviate the worst of the Sixth Umbral Era, people could simply accept this new crimson tinted wizardry as something used to help, rather than the disciplines of magic that had caused their plight in the first place.

It's that service to the people that carried forth to the eventual order of the Crimson Duelists; this service in turn caused Lovro to turn against the empire and the traitor Lambert and change the Imperial Red Magic School they had tried to form into a secret insurgency cell.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Not everything needs to accommodate raiding, there's also solo content.
Self sustain is important for things like PotD/HoH.

BLM has manaward, RDM has vercure, SMN has physick.

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Yeah, need that 600 heal at 90, baby.

Physick on SMN is just an inside joke at this point.

like Undraw on AST and Fluid Au-.....sorry...too soon...*sniff*

hey dont forget us MNK, we have it too you know

*do a cool pose with Anatman skill*

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Originally Posted by gumas

hey dont forget us MNK, we have it too you know

*do a cool pose with Anatman skill*

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That skill is useful when you’re waiting for boss transitions at least, since it resets your counters and will keep your current state active until you need to start attacking again.