(Ninja) Why is Hurajin and Thing?

(Bit of a mild rant.)

We have mudra to activate Huton and Armor Crush to keep it up, so why even include Hurajin unless it's to lower the skill ceiling of the job class. It's not very hard to keep Huton up at all without Hurajin. Just feels like a useless skill tacted onto Ninja. Phantom Kamitachi should just take its place as a separate button from Bunshin that you could activate every 30 seconds or just straight up use with the Ninja gauge.

I'm only at level at 83 with Ninja, so I don't know how the rest of the new abilities work yet, but so far I think Hurajin should just be outright removed from Ninja as it doesn't bring anything to the table that actually improves Ninja's playstyle and is just useless button bloat that only recently new players would use.

Thoughts?

I'm not a hardcore player by any stretch, but the reason I use it is 1 button verses 3 or 4 when you ninjutsu it. Though most of the time I just do it normally anyway. I'm also not trying to get as much dps as I can and squeeze out as many gcds or whatever. I try to play as good as I can. I also don't care about things like skill ceilings etc.

The point of the ability is so that you don't have to waste a mudra on reapplying Huton when you die.

That's it. I think it's good, because ninja was punished more so for dying than other melees.

I see it mostly as a tool in case you end up dropping Huton or messing up some rotation either through cutscenes or whatever without the need of spending a mudra.
The only thing that honestly sucks is you acquire the skill at 60 and not before Armor Crush, still relying on using a Mudra to keep Huton up before AC...

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

I see it mostly as a tool in case you end up dropping Huton or messing up some rotation either through cutscenes or whatever without the need of spending a mudra.
The only thing that honestly sucks is you acquire the skill at 60 and not before Armor Crush, still relying on using a Mudra to keep Huton up before AC...

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As a casual player that to me is the really annoying part. Granted it's like what 4 levels you have to wait, but still they should've been a package deal so you don't have to waste ninjutsu on keeping it up.

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Originally Posted by iVolke

The point of the ability is so that you don't have to waste a mudra on reapplying Huton when you die.

That's it. I think it's good, because ninja was punished more so for dying than other melees.

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Have you seen what happens to Eyes or Beast Chakra on death?

But yes, it doesn't reduce the skill ceiling in any way; it just conveniences the floor slightly and reduces the penalty of dying somewhat.

Yeah, Huraijin is pretty stupid button bloat and I think it's rarher obvious that they just didn't know what to do with NIN in EW. Even on long transitions in SHB you could always keep Huton up, be it by capping on the duration before downtime or just using a ninjutsu charge which would've clipped the cd mid-way through anyways. Now we have Huraijin which you pretty much never want to use and had to pay some of the maximum Huton duration for it.

Sure, it makes deaths less punishing, but it was never such a big issue to begin with - most jobs get punished by deaths to a degree, I don't think that should be seen as such a horrible thing. I always felt much worse about missing the TA window and misaligning its cd when I died, than about having to "waste" ninjutsu on Huton, but wouldn't want to see that "solved" in some stupid way either.

It's a quality of life skill that's only used to re-apply Huton while you're in a fight if it drops off (death, long downtime, etc). Rather than wasting your Mudra on Huton, you can just apply it quickly with Huraijin.

instead of removing Hurajin I purpose ...

Have Huton buff be the single button, and replace the Huton jutsu combo (ending with Ten) with a new ability since we now have the space for it. (currently only having the 3 mudras)

OR

Have Hurajin be a oGCD ability that buffs Huton if it's currently up for more than 30 seconds (even faster recast reduction, extra Bunshin stacks, increase Ninki gauge by X (Mug 2.0))? Reward a Ninja player who keeps Huton up the old fashion way by using your full combo's.

At this rate they might as well just turn Huton into a trait and give ninja's the buff since it's so easy to do now; remove the active element like they did with ye old poisons.

Why mess with how other skills work, just to make useful something that was never needed to begin with? I'd much rather just get a new ogcd attack to use between TAs in its place or get back the Shadowfang combo to break up the downtime monotony. If there was anyone genuinely bothered by dropping Huton before EW, then I can easily see them whining about that second idea as well, because it's a dps loss on drop all the same.

Also screw the idea of turning Huton into a trait and removing another combo from the job. It's there to add some gcds variety between bursts, something we need more of, not even less. You still have to pay attention to it and it even has a different positional. It's not like DRK's Darkside that just stays on as long as you spend MP on anything.

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Originally Posted by iVolke

The point of the ability is so that you don't have to waste a mudra on reapplying Huton when you die.

That's it. I think it's good, because ninja was punished more so for dying than other melees.

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But then why make it so you can use it instantly whenever you want? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to have at least a minute long cast time so it can't be abused and only used when you really need it?

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Originally Posted by Rhynio

instead of removing Hurajin I purpose ...

Have Huton buff be the single button, and replace the Huton jutsu combo (ending with Ten) with a new ability since we now have the space for it. (currently only having the 3 mudras)

OR

Have Hurajin be a oGCD ability that buffs Huton if it's currently up for more than 30 seconds (even faster recast reduction, extra Bunshin stacks, increase Ninki gauge by X (Mug 2.0))? Reward a Ninja player who keeps Huton up the old fashion way by using your full combo's.

At this rate they might as well just turn Huton into a trait and give ninja's the buff since it's so easy to do now; remove the active element like they did with ye old poisons.

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I really like your second idea. Plus maybe give Hurajin the ability to increase the Huton duration by 10 seconds like Phantom Kamitachi as an extra reward.

And I completely agree. Since they've given people a Skip button to just auto activate Huton, might as well just make it a trait at this point. :/

I'm trying to remember if the devs stated that they don't want NIN to be so heavily penalized should Huton fall off during combat, or if they wanted for NIN to be able to gain the Huton buff without using Ninjutsu. Perhaps it was a combination of both. Either way I'm afraid anecdotal evidence won't work to convince the dev team a skill is not needed, and player skill level really has no bearing on this decision at all.

Huton is a triple mudra skill that does zero damage, so it obviously is less than ideal to use during combat; and I think just allowing Armor Crush to grant the buff still results in a DPS loss for the NIN; just not as much mid-fight Huton.

I honestly think they could have resolved the issue by allowing Armor Crush to apply/refresh Huton without the combo requirement. The combo bonus would only apply to the damage. They could have then just made Hurajin an upgrade to Armor Crush via trait that tacks on a little bit more potency along with the new animation at level blah blah blah.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

But then why make it so you can use it instantly whenever you want? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to have at least a minute long cast time so it can't be abused and only used when you really need it?

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Because you lose damage, you do not spam it.
Armor Crush benefits more due to damage and Ninki Gauge build up.
A whopping 380 on flank with 15 ninki build vs 200 potency with 5 ninki as comparison.
And it would make just more frustrating having a cooldown like that for such a situational tool.

Convenience. And it looks cool.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

Because you lose damage, you do not spam it.
Armor Crush benefits more due to damage and Ninki Gauge build up.
A whopping 380 on flank with 15 ninki build vs 200 potency with 5 ninki as comparison.
And it would make just more frustrating having a cooldown like that for such a situational tool.

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Ahhhhhh, I see. :0

In the middle of combat, Instead of wasting a mudra that takes three seconds to execute, you now just press one button and you're good to go. Useful if you drop Huton by accident or even just to use after a boss transition. Other than that, keep using your mudra before a pull and Hide to reset them and Armor Crush to keep it up. Hurajin is just a little QOL button.

It's pretty handy for dungeons where you don't use pull timers. You don't need to waste a Mudra and only loose 1GCD.

It would have been way better if Huraijin would be a Upgrade for Mug and that the old Assassinate Skill would return and grant the Ninki bonus (from Mug) instead.

It's just a good utility skill to have at your disposal. Maybe you never have to use it, maybe you do. But it's there if you feel you need to. There's nothing wrong with that.

The thing about Huraijin isnt about it being a bad skill in any regard. The problem is, its place in the entire NIN kit.

Huton is a buff that is granted ONLY by doing the proper ninjutsu for it. And since were completely skipping the process of doing said ninjutsu, simply by using Huraijin instead, then why is Huton still a Ninjutsu then in the first place, instead of being just a generic Buff that can simply be applied by Huraijin?

In short, it makes the existence of Huton being a ninjutsu completely worthless.

Kinda sometimes wonder if they might ever move towards removing the mudras altogether and just having the skills be their own buttons that share a recast timer.

The mudras are thematic, they're iconic, they're pretty cool even. But are they necessary?

Guess they do save on a couple buttons... And it can be moderately fun to feel like you're actually executing the skill with sequential button presses...

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Kinda sometimes wonder if they might ever move towards removing the mudras altogether and just having the skills be their own buttons that share a recast timer.

The mudras are thematic, they're iconic, they're pretty cool even. But are they necessary?

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Nothing fun is "necessary" and not only would making each Ninjutsu cast be its own ability take up more buttons, but it would also reduce the sense of dynamism in the job from having lost its .5s and 1.5s GCDs therein.

I'd argue that we should lose the ability to bunny --seeing as it exists, after all of three minutes of practice, only to punish those with higher ping or packet loss-- and could then make the separate Ninjutsu button itself optional, too, with the ability otherwise being released upon hitting any of the mudra a second time within the same series (X-Chi-Chi = Raiton; X-Y-Jin-Jin = Suiton, etc.).

I also wouldn't be opposed to Huraijin giving only 30 second of Huton, being chargeable by Gust Blade, and thereafter replacing Armor Crush, to drop a further bloat button. (And, of course, let Phantom Kamaitachi replace Bunshin while the latter is active.)

Final nit-pick: Increase Fleeting Raiton's range to 4 yalms, up from the normal 3, and have Forked Raiton replace Fleeting Raiton if out of range if Forked Raiton hasn't itself been put on any of your action bars.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Also screw the idea of turning Huton into a trait and removing another combo from the job. It's there to add some gcds variety between bursts, something we need more of, not even less. You still have to pay attention to it and it even has a different positional. It's not like DRK's Darkside that just stays on as long as you spend MP on anything.

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I wouldn't mind losing Armor Crush for a returned Shadow Fang combo. Ideally, though, I'd take both.

However, it's not like the only possible uses for combo-finishers are (A) gauge-maintenance, (B) DoT effects, or (C) superior direct damage.

Even if Huton were made a trait, we could still have Armor Crush (perhaps renamed to Gale Spike or whatnot) supply something interesting and unique, such as to grant different bonus effects to 'wind type' attacks within a given duration, up to maximum count not expendable in its duration by Aeolian Edge alone. In that way it could prime Bunshin, perhaps upgrade Throwing Daggers to be nearer average ppgcd and not break combos, turn Aeolian into a blink-strike if (and only if) out of melee range, or even briefly allowing one to skip over Spinning Edge in favor of later steps in combo, etc. More variety, not less, for having detached it from being NIN's Storm's Eye equivalent.

I'm not sure why they didn't make Huton a trait like Greased Lightning and then just either give you a new Ninjutsu or just delete that combination.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I'm not sure why they didn't make Huton a trait like Greased Lightning and then just either give you a new Ninjutsu or just delete that combination.

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Probably because they haven't yet come up with anything to replace it in a kit that's already reduced mostly to 123 spam between Trick Attacks (and its 20s-prior Suiton cast).

Deleting a core mechanic, however wonky or lackluster at this point, without a better replacement would rightly earn some really bad rep.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

(Bit of a mild rant.)

We have mudra to activate Huton and Armor Crush to keep it up, so why even include Hurajin unless it's to lower the skill ceiling of the job class. It's not very hard to keep Huton up at all without Hurajin. Just feels like a useless skill tacted onto Ninja. Phantom Kamitachi should just take its place as a separate button from Bunshin that you could activate every 30 seconds or just straight up use with the Ninja gauge.

I'm only at level at 83 with Ninja, so I don't know how the rest of the new abilities work yet, but so far I think Hurajin should just be outright removed from Ninja as it doesn't bring anything to the table that actually improves Ninja's playstyle and is just useless button bloat that only recently new players would use.

Thoughts?

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Hurajin is not button bloat if it has uses, niche as they would be.

If you personally never need to use it ever, just don't drag it into your hotbars. By this logic, BLM's Umbral Soul is also bloat because it serves a similar purpose.

Button bloat to me is either:
a) Rotational actions that are convoluted just for the sake of it;
b) Actions that won't find any use ever (i.e. SMN's Physick)

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Hurajin is not button bloat if it has uses, niche as they would be.

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The capacity isn't bloat. That it takes an additional button, though, arguably is.

Consider:

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<Ability A>
Delivers an attack of 220 potency.
280 when executed from target's flank.
Additional Effect: Grants 30s of Huton duration, to a maximum of 60s.
Combo Action: Gust Slash
Combo Potency: 320
Flank Combo Potency: 380
Combo Bonus: Increases Ninki Gauge by 15.

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With just that tiniest of changes to Armor Crush --raising its uncomboed potency faintly and changing it from extending Huton to granting it, via an Additional Effect instead of Combo bonus-- would there then be any reason to have a separate button for Huraijin?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The capacity isn't bloat. That it takes an additional button, though, arguably is.

Consider:


With just that tiniest of changes to Armor Crush --raising its uncomboed potency faintly and changing it from extending Huton to granting it, via an Additional Effect instead of Combo bonus-- would there then be any reason to have a separate button for Huraijin?

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That would be totally fine! I was just questioning the OP as they analyze the situation as it is, however this scenario would be even better.

I think the skill is fine.
The one change I'd make to ninja is make it so that you can't cast the same mudra again twice in a row. That way you don't have to worry about making sure your inputs go through without accidentally pressing the same button twice and wasting the mudra.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

The thing about Huraijin isnt about it being a bad skill in any regard. The problem is, its place in the entire NIN kit.

Huton is a buff that is granted ONLY by doing the proper ninjutsu for it. And since were completely skipping the process of doing said ninjutsu, simply by using Huraijin instead, then why is Huton still a Ninjutsu then in the first place, instead of being just a generic Buff that can simply be applied by Huraijin?

In short, it makes the existence of Huton being a ninjutsu completely worthless.

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Exactly; all I really want is a reason to use the jutsu version of Huton be worth the extra effort now. Outside of using once before a boss encounter; there are no 0 reasons to use the old way of putting on Huton. So give extra buff if you use the jutsu way, or turn Huraijin into a proc or oGCD that does something extra that can only be used if Huton is already up for a certain length of time.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Kinda sometimes wonder if they might ever move towards removing the mudras altogether and just having the skills be their own buttons that share a recast timer.

The mudras are thematic, they're iconic, they're pretty cool even. But are they necessary?

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Please stop.