Class uniqueness [dev1032]

Lets see how can we make the classes unique, without changing too much from the game. But ideas that do require drastic change are welcomed as well.


Related to creating class uniqueness.
*Change in basic attack speeds and stamina uses would be a start. They should vary bases on weapon, every weapon should have a unique feel.

*Improve staminas effect in battle. (Other disciplines and classes could take a higher hit on stamina.

*Insert other idea to create class uniqueness.


Unrelated
*Battle queue extension should help us control the feel of battle (kinda unrelated)

*Better targeting system (something like an auto-target), consider positioning and multiple enemies in it. (unrelated)

*Insert any idea to help battle.

Edited to make it a discussion. Replied to let anyone that read know the change. Thanks.

I feel a drastic class re-haul is needed. Few of the classes have a particular focus or concept.

In FFXI a thief was a thief, you stole things and used skills with an emphasis on the concept of 'trickery'. In FFXIV the main difference between melee jobs is the weapon you use, which quickly becomes a trivial issue. Besides that, originally on the official websites (prior to release) there was an emphasis on range, each job had a range it was meant to stand at; pugilists the closest, archers the furthest. While this isn't exactly the foundation for a class system with highly unique classes it at least separated them somewhat. However, due to lack of crowd control, your class's ideal 'range' doesn't amount to an awful lot.

Often there's the argument that you 'make your own class' by using the skill system, with paladin (glad+conj) being the cited example. This doesn't exactly stand up either, you can make a paladin but 'subjob' abilities have longer recasts and only conj/thau can restore their mp (though I think they announced introduction of natural mp regen recently?). However, what class can I make with Archer? I don't, I just tack on healing abilities so that I can solo. I'm a paladin with a bow I suppose?

To summarise on classes, I think the classes just need their 'concept' rethinking. "Wields a spear" doesn't strike me as a concept, which is probably why the current idea of a 'unique' skill for a DD class is the same ability 10 times with either a different aoe shape (archer) or a different status effect tacked on (all melee classes).

As for general combat mechanics, FFXIV sits in a weird place. It's like it can't make its mind up if it wants to be a button masher or an final fantasy rpg game. We mash 1 until we can hit maybe a 2 or 3, possibly hitting 9 or 0 before the 2 or 3 if we're feeling fancy. If it wants to be a button masher then we need controls to reflect that, make dodging easier, get rid of the nervous twitching that is active and passive mode. If they want to be more tactical we need to look at less commands per second but each command having more emphasis/importance. Possibly look at a variation on the ATB system. At the moment we have a button basher with tactical rpg style controls and it's not a good combination.

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Often there's the argument that you 'make your own class' by using the skill system, with paladin (glad+conj) being the cited example. This doesn't exactly stand up either, you can make a paladin but 'subjob' abilities have longer recasts and only conj/thau can restore their mp (though I think they announced introduction of natural mp regen recently?).

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Yes, your MP recovers now while you are in passive mode.

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As for general combat mechanics, FFXIV sits in a weird place. It's like it can't make its mind up if it wants to be a button masher or an final fantasy rpg game. We mash 1 until we can hit maybe a 2 or 3, possibly hitting 9 or 0 before the 2 or 3 if we're feeling fancy. If it wants to be a button masher then we need controls to reflect that, make dodging easier, get rid of the nervous twitching that is active and passive mode. If they want to be more tactical we need to look at less commands per second but each command having more emphasis/importance. Possibly look at a variation on the ATB system. At the moment we have a button basher with tactical rpg style controls and it's not a good combination.

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I totally agree with this.

I think this game needs more flashier animations. I love the freedom of the game, but all the attacks look the same. Not only should my character look like it is doing a different 'emote' with each attach but also the 'animation' should be more colorful and special enough to recognize as a so-and-so skill.

Take a look at TERA online. Lovely character movement with every skill, looks so smooth and natural instead of the same THM move with a blue or a red ball.

I think that would make the combat so much more interesting.

Legendary Jobs should be based on the armor you wear, not the weapon you equip. Paladin Armor would enhance abilities like phalanx, guard, rampart, and cover as well as granting new abilities like reprisal and flash.

Also the abilities need to be flashy and unique instead of all looking the same. Weaponskills should only be useable to that classes. A GLA shouldn't use skewer.

I like the the way you can make your own class now. I think that is a step forward and going back to rigid pre-defined "you can't do anything without a group"/"You have such a pre-defined role/job/class that you are worthless by yourself. You can't do anything alone" is totally going backwards.

Don't forget that is based on how difficult the monster/quest are, not the class you make.

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I like the the way you can make your own class now. I think that is a step forward and going back to rigid pre-defined "you can't do anything without a group"/"You have such a pre-defined role/job/class that you are worthless by yourself. You can't do anything alone" is totally going backwards.

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Again, aside from paladin (which is by definition a tank with cure spells attached to it), I don't see it as 'making your own job' so much as 'adding curing abilities/buffs to your existing job'; i.e. attaching raging strike and hawk eye to melee classes or just adding cure/bloodbath to any job that doesn't have healing. That's not really "making your own class" in my opinion, it's just tacking random extras onto your job to help it solo. If this is what we're doing maybe it should just be entirely classless and stop pretending the concept of classes exist in this game, i.e. there's a list of skills, pick what you want.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Legendary Jobs should be based on the armor you wear, not the weapon you equip. Paladin Armor would enhance abilities like phalanx, guard, rampart, and cover as well as granting new abilities like reprisal and flash.

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I absolutely love this idea, you can do so much with it.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Again, aside from paladin (which is by definition a tank with cure spells attached to it), I don't see it as 'making your own job' so much as 'adding curing abilities/buffs to your existing job'; i.e. attaching raging strike and hawk eye to melee classes or just adding cure/bloodbath to any job that doesn't have healing. That's not really "making your own class" in my opinion, it's just tacking random extras onto your job to help it solo. If this is what we're doing maybe it should just be entirely classless and stop pretending the concept of classes exist in this game, i.e. there's a list of skills, pick what you want.

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Lets see, Every type of traditional class can have their own sets of abilities.

Paladin Defensive, with healing buff.
Dark knight, attack magic buff.
Thief- whatever you want from thief.
Black mage, destructive magic buff.
White mage, Defensive magic buff.
Warrior attack buff.

Just keep filling in classes we can make Armour for them and buff those qualities in them.

People will wear cool sets of Armour that benefit the qualities of that job within the class. You just pick armour based on what you want to do.

I just hope Yoshi-P has a vision with this game. Otherwise only taking the ideas of players and putting them together will cause for a failed vision and game x.x

Yes classes definitely need more definition as of now I feel like all the DD classes play the same way sometimes even use the exact same gear (arc and pug) (mrd and lnc). My gf plays both the conj and thm classes and even then thm is better of using conj spells with the exception of shadow sear. Point is we need more class specific skills like the lnc surges. Even the current r50 skills are not much to speak of.

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Originally Posted by Ceons

I just hope Yoshi-P has a vision with this game. Otherwise only taking the ideas of players and putting them together will cause for a failed vision and game x.x

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Your right, I hear that. It's good to give some insight into what we all consider to be the game that we want, gives them ideas. If it's stuff they haven't heard they might use it, or a variation of it.

My problem is I can't see the problems I"m having until after I've figured out what would fix them lol.
It sounds like they understand that people think like this, that's why I hope they're going to look past things like an auto-attack and auction house, figure out what's missing and work with that knowledge.

Go vision of Yoshi-P!

Should all classes require the same volume of input?

If I have to hit 20 ish buttons on lnc a min, do I also need to hit 20 ish buttons at similer intervals as pug?

Do all classes need to use the same resource? is stam/mp/tp really required for everyone?

If your class is designated by your weapon IE magic in staves and swords, guard in shields etc, why can I cast cure with EVERY sword? and why can't I cast cure with a sword as a mage ? I know this sounds silly but it is a pseudo serious question, it seems that the lore of the system seems laking to me. Right now it feels like SE has an armoury system that defines the universe, but doesn't give any lore behind it. Here is a staff, with it you can cast magic, here is a pair of kncuckles, with it you can guar, and punch, but if you have ever picked up a staff, they can heal you as well? this just seems odd. If there were special knuckles that allowed you to access a certain amount of abilities of other classes, like these knuckles arn't as hard as other types but are imbued with certian magics which allow you to access known magical talet. Without stuff like this it just seems like a whacky universe and
un FF like.

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Originally Posted by Linnear

Should all classes require the same volume of input?

If I have to hit 20 ish buttons on lnc a min, do I also need to hit 20 ish buttons at similer intervals as pug?

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Absolutely not, I'm believe very strongly that they need to change the attack speeds and add some variation if the current style of fighting is going to be successful.

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Do all classes need to use the same resource? is stam/mp/tp really required for everyone?

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Here I think it would be wiser if we did. It would take alot of the balancing issues out. But alas my good buddy shed some light into his point of view on this. You can't take out MP, it's just so final fantasy. lol

This doesn't change the fact that we do not need TP, it's just getting in the way. If anything I believe they should change attack speeds and have basic attacks use less stamina. Rather then building TP with them, give some sort of bonus for opening up attacks.

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If your class is designated by your weapon IE magic in staves and swords, guard in shields etc, why can I cast cure with EVERY sword? and why can't I cast cure with a sword as a mage ? I know this sounds silly but it is a pseudo serious question, it seems that the lore of the system seems laking to me. Right now it feels like SE has an armoury system that defines the universe, but doesn't give any lore behind it. Here is a staff, with it you can cast magic, here is a pair of kncuckles, with it you can guar, and punch, but if you have ever picked up a staff, they can heal you as well? this just seems odd. If there were special knuckles that allowed you to access a certain amount of abilities of other classes, like these knuckles arn't as hard as other types but are imbued with certian magics which allow you to access known magical talet. Without stuff like this it just seems like a whacky universe and
un FF like.

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It's not a problem with the lore it all makes sense. You use a sword you fight with a sword, you use a septre with magic, it increases your ability to wield magic. The Problem is the execution.
This is why I think all bars should be combined into stamina. It fits right in with lore.
Yeah I can use magic with my sword, but it's going to take alot out of me, therefore I'm not going to want to use much magic.
If however my sword was imbued with some special ruby or empowered crystal I would use less stamina because this ruby would help me cast my magic.

I'm just saying, it's the THM weapon that makes them particularly good at magic, to get better as GLA I should need a special weapon with powers like THM. I'd never be as good because that's what they do, but it wouldn't be as hard for me anymore.

Seriously I see so much good coming from combining all three bars in the way of helping class uniqueness.

It's the future, I think the right thing is to combine them all into one, actions would be better balanced and we could focus on the feel of battle rather then these arbitrary bars.

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

I feel a drastic class re-haul is needed. Few of the classes have a particular focus or concept.

In FFXI a thief was a thief, you stole things and used skills with an emphasis on the concept of 'trickery'. In FFXIV the main difference between melee jobs is the weapon you use, which quickly becomes a trivial issue. Besides that, originally on the official websites (prior to release) there was an emphasis on range, each job had a range it was meant to stand at; pugilists the closest, archers the furthest. While this isn't exactly the foundation for a class system with highly unique classes it at least separated them somewhat. However, due to lack of crowd control, your class's ideal 'range' doesn't amount to an awful lot.

Often there's the argument that you 'make your own class' by using the skill system, with paladin (glad+conj) being the cited example. This doesn't exactly stand up either, you can make a paladin but 'subjob' abilities have longer recasts and only conj/thau can restore their mp (though I think they announced introduction of natural mp regen recently?). However, what class can I make with Archer? I don't, I just tack on healing abilities so that I can solo. I'm a paladin with a bow I suppose?

To summarise on classes, I think the classes just need their 'concept' rethinking. "Wields a spear" doesn't strike me as a concept, which is probably why the current idea of a 'unique' skill for a DD class is the same ability 10 times with either a different aoe shape (archer) or a different status effect tacked on (all melee classes).

As for general combat mechanics, FFXIV sits in a weird place. It's like it can't make its mind up if it wants to be a button masher or an final fantasy rpg game. We mash 1 until we can hit maybe a 2 or 3, possibly hitting 9 or 0 before the 2 or 3 if we're feeling fancy. If it wants to be a button masher then we need controls to reflect that, make dodging easier, get rid of the nervous twitching that is active and passive mode. If they want to be more tactical we need to look at less commands per second but each command having more emphasis/importance. Possibly look at a variation on the ATB system. At the moment we have a button basher with tactical rpg style controls and it's not a good combination.

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Agreed nuff a over haul of the class system is needed make this game worthy of being called final fantasy wtf are the classes...and the combat system should be a variation on XI's and for god sake after you do the leves for the day all you can do is craft bring freaking party machanics in so ppl can have fun in exp partys ...

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Originally Posted by Shikyo

Agreed nuff a over haul of the class system is needed make this game worthy of being called final fantasy wtf are the classes...and the combat system should be a variation on XI's and for god sake after you do the leves for the day all you can do is craft bring freaking party machanics in so ppl can have fun in exp partys ...

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There's a thread I posted here about action based skill point distribution. It's each attack but the idea behind it was to open anything as a valid target thus bringing back rewarding SP parties.

Rather then having us determine enemies based on hp/def which results in the highest sp per hour. Sp would only be effected by fighting tougher battles. It's similar to the original system scratch the randomness. If you have any questions I'll answer them on that thread. I'll post a link later but I'm on my phone, it's too sloppy.

This would give you exactly what youre looking for though cause I'm looking for thy same thing and this is the best solution I can come up with.

The current system of sp is too hard to balance which is causing this problem.

The system they created sought to eliminate this but a major change to the game unbalanced the attack based sp.

Heres the link:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...bution-dev1021

You could change the cross class skill penalty.

For instance a thm/conj using each other skills wouldn't have a damage/duration penalty, but they would have a cool down penalty. While an archer would have the damage penalty. Other classes would have other different penalties like cast-duration, extra cast cost, and/or a fail chance.

Well if they are stoping expansions for good for FFXI then this game will HAVE to have some major class and combat similarities if it expects to keep those subscribers. Obviously the plan is to get those people to roll over to this game and what better way to make the transition painless by adding Samurais, Ninjas, Dragoons etc and similar class mechanics.