What are realistic DRK changes for savage?

Hey all,

I’ve been reading a lot of DRK posts. It got me thinking… What do you think the devs will actually change for 6.05?

They only do DPS balancing .05, you'll have to expect job changes in large patches.

Dark Knight is likely left alone.

Gunbreaker DPS nerfs probably.

Paladin Atonement buff, maybe Blades.

Warrior, likely left alone, possible BW Healing nerf.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

They only do DPS balancing .05, you'll have to expect job changes in large patches.

Dark Knight is likely left alone.

Gunbreaker DPS nerfs probably.

Paladin Atonement buff, maybe Blades.

Warrior, likely left alone, possible BW Healing nerf.

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Awesome. Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by Rhad

Hey all,

I’ve been reading a lot of DRK posts. It got me thinking… What do you think the devs will actually change for 6.05?

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Honestly no changes besides PLD buffs, maybe if SE wants to nerf BW then WAR would need damage buffs to compensate. PLD/WAR have the lowest DPS by a pretty wide margin between DRK and GNB and I could see the gap narrowing.
DRK later on will likely see mitigation reworks honestly, but not touching their damage.

PLD/WAR potency buffs and BW on War slight nerf.

Thats pretty much it. Dont expect real change until 6.1 after savage full numbers are out.

TBN increased to 8 seconds, up from 7 originally.

This is literally the minimal amount of effort I expect them to put in.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

They only do DPS balancing .05, you'll have to expect job changes in large patches.

Dark Knight is likely left alone.

Gunbreaker DPS nerfs probably.

Paladin Atonement buff, maybe Blades.

Warrior, likely left alone, possible BW Healing nerf.

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Yeah this seems the most realistic outcome. Do hope they give 10% more damage mitigation to DRK's oblation tho, even better if we can get hp regen on it as well.
PLD definitely could use the dps buff, damage gap is way too wide for pld compared to other tanks. I'd be surprised if PLD dont get more potency on some of their actions.

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Originally Posted by Ampheni

Yeah this seems the most realistic outcome. Do hope they give 10% more damage mitigation to DRK's oblation tho, even better if we can get hp regen on it as well.
PLD definitely could use the dps buff, damage gap is way too wide for pld compared to other tanks. I'd be surprised if PLD dont get more potency on some of their actions.

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I would expect Oblation getting an addition of a low Regen/Barrier, or an extra tune up lets say 15% mitigation, 20% mitigation is very dang strong for having 2 charges 10s, tuning up too far can be a dangerous game changer, put alert on 20%. Still, I would expect a rework in 6.1 or 6.2. Dark Knight is terrible in dungeons, no denying, that's the problem, buffing way too much just to survive dungeons can cause a disturbance in other content.

The main priorities are TBN/Blood Weapon/Living Dead reworks, Oblation can take over Dark Mind in a lot of cases, we don't need the Magic/Physical system of cooldowns anymore.
TBN punishment removed, MP cost removed, Free Edge/Flood removed, cooldown extended 30s, buff tuned to 10s.
Oblation replace Dark Mind, add the regen (250-300) with 15% mitigation, can still freely target other players if needed, timer 12s, cooldown still 60s, 2 charges kept.
Blood Weapon 5x stacks people seem to suggest is just fine, add small cure procs to them (400 Cure Potency) since this ability is forced placed, cannot choose where to heal, only works on GCD attacks.
Living Dead? Next attack taken forces you to 1 HP, cannot fall below 1 HP till Walking Dead buff timer out (Does not require 100% HP), another version of Bolide, congratulations. Holmgang cooldown can be extended, or have a drawback.

Just a suggestion of ability reworks not buffs, remember Savage/Ultimates exist, too much tuning can cause disturbances. Can survive dungeons way more consistent, doesn't become insanely invincible. Maybe can be better, or less, but still doesn't overpower the other tanks.

Paladin needs Atonement/Blades buff to have more burst in their DPS, nothing needs to change on their tool kit.

Hard Slash potency increased by 10. Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

TBN increased to 8 seconds, up from 7 originally.

This is literally the minimal amount of effort I expect them to put in.

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Enhanced unmend now restores 5 blood

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

They only do DPS balancing .05, you'll have to expect job changes in large patches.

Dark Knight is likely left alone.

Gunbreaker DPS nerfs probably.

Paladin Atonement buff, maybe Blades.

Warrior, likely left alone, possible BW Healing nerf.

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I think they'd sooner go the route of buffing WAR in the event of a AoE nerf to Bloodwhetting. SE seems incredibly averse to nerfing jobs even to their own detriment. Which is why I fear RPR will absolutely dominate for most of this expansion.

As for DRK. Unfortunately, they'll do nothing. They don't seem to believe Blood Weapon, TBN or LD have any issues and JP isn't nearly as upset over them as we are.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

They only do DPS balancing .05, you'll have to expect job changes in large patches.

Dark Knight is likely left alone.

Gunbreaker DPS nerfs probably.

Paladin Atonement buff, maybe Blades.

Warrior, likely left alone, possible BW Healing nerf.

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Does not buffing tank dps to DRK levels result in over-buffing tank damage upwards? DRK currently does 70% of dmg of SAM, while GNB did ~57% of SAM's dmg in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

Does not buffing tank dps to DRK levels result in over-buffing tank damage upwards? DRK currently does 70% of dmg of SAM, while GNB did ~57% of SAM's dmg in ShB.

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We're seeing a similar ratio of tank to DPS damage as we saw in Stormblood, which was a lower ratio than tank to DPS damage in (3.2+) Heavensward, and that never felt like tanks were dealing too much damage. Shadowbringers was an anomaly with ultra-low tank damage, and honestly never felt like it was in a good place re: Your contribution to the group effort if you were playing a tank. We're more or less back to what it feels like the game "should" be, in that regard.

The only time tank damage has really felt like it might be a little too high was in Gordias (3.0-3.1), where tanks were dealing 80% the damage of the highest DPS classes - and even then, it was practically unheard of for groups to bring more than two tanks.

I'll laugh if C&S doesn't gain even a modest self-heal.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I'll laugh if C&S doesn't gain even a modest self-heal.

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You probably will. Expect C&S to never change and always be coupled to AD.

Don't expect any changes, DRK's damage is too high so they will consider that is a good enough reason to not touch the job regardless of how the community feels. They've always taken the easy route to balancing jobs and sticking to the easiest way to rework a job so that they can balance it in the future just by adjusting numbers.

1. Living Dead changes. Separate walking Dead from the doom mechanic by simply placing doom on the player. Make walking Dead apply invulnerability.

2. Another combo or soul eater removal. I'm so sick of this combo. It's been 3 expansions with the same thing.

3. More mitigation or survivability.

4. More group utility

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Originally Posted by Crater

We're seeing a similar ratio of tank to DPS damage as we saw in Stormblood, which was a lower ratio than tank to DPS damage in (3.2+) Heavensward, and that never felt like tanks were dealing too much damage. Shadowbringers was an anomaly with ultra-low tank damage, and honestly never felt like it was in a good place re: Your contribution to the group effort if you were playing a tank. We're more or less back to what it feels like the game "should" be, in that regard.

The only time tank damage has really felt like it might be a little too high was in Gordias (3.0-3.1), where tanks were dealing 80% the damage of the highest DPS classes - and even then, it was practically unheard of for groups to bring more than two tanks.

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Not to mention healers, especially white mages in ShB, were doing as much or more than some tanks. I don't think a job that spams one button (glare) should be doing more DPS than a job with an actual damage rotation. Tanks should probably be closer to DPS jobs in terms of damage.

I don't expect any changes but...

I think the most likely change will be buffs to paladin dmg potency. Whether that will be on their Confiteor combo or added to atonement etc. who knows. If that happens pld might be a very good choice otherwise Drk isn't looking as bad as an off-tank imo. Pld is the odd one out right now with it's dmg being quite a bit lower than the other 3 tanks.

Now obviously dmg is not everything but looking at Drk, it's issues are mostly with blood weapon and living dead. Neither of those thing will effect it's ability to clear content in a raid environment. The low dmg on pld looks like a bigger issue right now.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

You probably will. Expect C&S to never change and always be coupled to AD.

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I seriously hate these being tied together. Would much rather that AD have up to 2 charges so Drk has a little more to help it on those big pulls, even if they gave the healing a potency nerf on top of it going to 2 charges at least it would be better than it is right now. I mean, I can almost audibly hear a healer groan when they see the tank is a Drk because of their lower self healing capabilities. Then again, right now it just feels like they made it so everything has to hit like a mack truck. Guess we'll see how that changes as higher ilvl gear comes into play.

Apparently nothing. Nothing is a realistic DRK change for savage.

Looks like tanks are perfectly balanced as they are

Well boys and girls, it looks like we may have ourselves a WAR expansion on our hands. Won't know for sure until probably the next patch, but things are sure looking that way. But hey, at least DRK gets to have damage this time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Well boys and girls, it looks like we may have ourselves a WAR expansion on our hands. Won't know for sure until probably the next patch, but things are sure looking that way. But hey, at least DRK gets to have damage this time.

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That comment didn't age well when world first clear had a DRK and a GNB. Also Balance discord literally says to play any of the tank jobs you find fun as they're all pretty close to each other. Sure DRK could maybe use some changes, but it's not unplayable.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

That comment didn't age well when world first clear had a DRK and a GNB. Also Balance discord literally says to play any of the tank jobs you find fun as they're all pretty close to each other. Sure DRK could maybe use some changes, but it's not unplayable.

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The comment aged completely fine. Nobody ever claimed that DrK is unplayable, or rather not viable, just that it absolutely isn't fun to play and has a completely disjointed job kit. Said disjointed kit however still gets the job done, all tanks can survive savage tank mechanics and that is all you technically need.

Obviously you would see a DrK in savage, especially when it and GnB are the two tanks with the highest dps, something that definitely plays a big part during the world first race.

I also wouldn't take what the Balance says in regards to jobs as gospel. A lot of the people there are "performance people", they couldn't care less about how terrible a job feels to play as long as it puts out respectable numbers, something DrK currently does.

Idk but it's exaggerated to say that it'll be a WAR expac like that. I do think DRK could use some changes but it's still doing its job. I also think it's fair that WAR doesn't have the highest DPS when it has so much self sustain, same with PLD. Obviously you can't have the most self sustain and highest DPS all in one. And on the point of fun, fun is subjective. I enjoy DRK. Not saying it is perfect, because it isn't, but I'm having fun with it regardless.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Well boys and girls, it looks like we may have ourselves a WAR expansion on our hands. Won't know for sure until probably the next patch, but things are sure looking that way. But hey, at least DRK gets to have damage this time.

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If an expansion is mostly dungeons for you... Then yes, WAR do shine. Alas, it's mostly about raids where DRK do perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

If an expansion is mostly dungeons for you... Then yes, WAR do shine. Alas, it's mostly about raids where DRK do perfectly fine.

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The devs still balance things for dungeons though, and often (or at least as far as I can remember) do so in a way that doesn't negatively effect raid performance.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

If an expansion is mostly dungeons for you... Then yes, WAR do shine. Alas, it's mostly about raids where DRK do perfectly fine.

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That's the same as having you don't need that other arm since you have that other arm that works just fine.

Or that you aren't allowed to enjoy or give feedback on certain content because you are fine in another type of content.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

That's the same as having you don't need that other arm since you have that other arm that works just fine.

Or that you aren't allowed to enjoy or give feedback on certain content because you are fine in another type of content.

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I am an advocate of DRK buffs they have issues in dungeons, but when people say they struggle in raids too this is just false because they do not! DRK is an one armed dungeon tank, this is true.

Before "DRK was in world first" argument.
Remember DRK was also in UCOB world first (for a different reason), SMN was in multiple world first.

If DRK was chosen, it's not because of Unmend, not because of TBN, not because of Esteem, not because of Living Dead.
It was simply because it had bigger damage. If any other job had bigger damage, they would've been chosen instead.
Design of the job remains terrible.

The fact that most world first are BRD proves this as well...

Hardcore racers would pick a job that has 2 buttons and no mechanics if it dealt 5% more damage then one with fulfilling gameplay.
Worldfirsts sure are not a good metric of "design quality" of a job. Kind of how looking at a speedrun doesn't necesseraly say anything of a game's actual balance or how buggy it is "normally"

It's fine to ask for changes to DRK just don't use hyperbole. In dungeons DRK is fine, it's not as great for self-sustain but that doesn't mean it's bad, and the endgame isn't just dungeons. Kind of a copeout to say that for raids DRK just brings damage when TBN is great to use on the co-tank for tankbusters if you're the off-tank. You can main tank raids/trials just as well with DRK.

I still think DRK can use some changes, but I do think some people are exaggerating a bit.

edit: Would like to mention I don't play for the meta before someone makes a comment on that, I planned on being a tank main but mostly PLD/DRK for Endwalker. I don't care what's meta or not.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

Kind of a copeout to say that for raids DRK just brings damage when TBN is great to use on the co-tank for tankbusters if you're the off-tank. You can main tank raids/trials just as well with DRK.
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The thing is that HoC and Aurora are targetable like TBN and Oblation, and Bloodwhetting and Holy Sheltron have a co-tank version in Nascent and Intervention so everyone else can co-tank as effectively as DRK. That's fine, there has to be an amount parity for it to be balanced, but what does DRK bring? WAR has a tiny cooldown on their invuln to cheese through more tank swaps. PLD has a casting phase so you can keep attacking through a mechanic without risking a vuln stack/ damage down. GNB brings literally 99% of DRKs damage while being generally more fun to push buttons on. The best case I can make for DRK is in fights with magic autos like Asphodelos 3, they need a bit less healing.

For those who think DRK is fine because of the world first clears, as a reminder, world first means nothing in the terms of data gathering. The total amount of clears with the class matter more than anything, something we can roughly see through clear parses after 2-4 weeks.

Never said specifically that DRK is fine because it was brought in for world first, only mentioned that it was brought in because it does just as fine as any other tanks in raids. If DRK is only weak in dungeons (and it's not that much weaker than the other tanks), then yeah I think being hyperbolic is not necessary.

Again, does DRK have issues? Yes, but it's not as bad as some people make it to be. Not sure why people are so hung up on this. I play DRK and do just fine, haven't done enough 90 dungeons on GNB yet, and my WAR is 88 and I plan to do more 90 dungeons on both so I can make a better comparison between the 4 tanks. I leveled PLD for the MSQ and did my Expert roulettes and EX trials with PLD at first until my DRK was 90, and have been playing that since. Just at 88 WAR feels way too strong with Bloodwhetting, I'm still surprised that didn't get nerfed when I was highly expecting nerfs to BW.

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Originally Posted by Weetzlo

The thing is that HoC and Aurora are targetable like TBN and Oblation, and Bloodwhetting and Holy Sheltron have a co-tank version in Nascent and Intervention so everyone else can co-tank as effectively as DRK. That's fine, there has to be an amount parity for it to be balanced, but what does DRK bring? WAR has a tiny cooldown on their invuln to cheese through more tank swaps. PLD has a casting phase so you can keep attacking through a mechanic without risking a vuln stack/ damage down. GNB brings literally 99% of DRKs damage while being generally more fun to push buttons on. The best case I can make for DRK is in fights with magic autos like Asphodelos 3, they need a bit less healing.

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And TBN is an absorb shield which other tanks do not have, and allows for more cheese. And the toolkits for tanks didn't change much from ShB aside from PLD gaining Holy Sheltron, WAR gaining Bloodwhetting, and GNB gaining HoC. DRK does have Dark Missionary and yes I'm well aware GNB has a similar CD. DRK being the anti-magic tank is fine to me, I'd argue that they could emphasis on that more to make it distinct from the other 3 tanks.

Other edit: I'm going to be doing Savage starting next weekend so I will actually be able to comment more on Savage, especially since this is what the thread actually is about.

I'm not trying to come at you personally and be nasty, I'm not mad that you disagree with me, but this is legitimately how your message reads to me.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

TBN gives yellow health instead of green health which makes it better for ....reasons. DRKs are still playing ShB but that's fine because everyone is. PLD's uptime on guaranteed block just went from 30% to 40%, while getting a 1000 potency heal and baked in and additional mit. Also, their ranged phase became 60% longer making it that much more comfortable when you have to dodge point blank AoEs or take a flare marker away from the group. That's all. Plus if you think about it DRKs do bring something to the table other tanks can't. They bring this ability that another tank has (To most content anyway since DRK learns it 12 levels later)

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Like I do not understand the point you're trying to put out here

I didn't say that though? I don't know what kind of fabricated quote is that but if you're gonna put words in my mouth, stop that.

If anything you seem to take my disagreement more personal. Talk about nasty.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

I didn't say that though? I don't know what kind of fabricated quote is that but if you're gonna put words in my mouth, stop that.

If anything you seem to take my disagreement more personal. Talk about nasty.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

TBN is an absorb shield which other tanks do not have, and allows for more cheese

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A shield is literally yellow health that you heal before instead of after the attack. 25% shield and healing for 25% of your total health are identical in every situation except those where 1 attack would deal more damage than your maximum health pool. Given that you did not give any spicy tech situations where that's extra applicable I think "TBN gives yellow health instead of green health which makes it better for ....reasons." Is a reasonable, though obviously ironic way to put it back out there to highlight what a weird statement it is.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

And the toolkits for tanks didn't change much from ShB aside from PLD gaining Holy Sheltron, WAR gaining Bloodwhetting, and GNB gaining HoC

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Put another way, 'They didn't change except for the ways that they changed.' some of which like PLD were great big strides and we don't need to take another thread to talk about Bloodwhetting being as good as it is. Even if they weren't though, the concept of 6.0 DRK being so remarkably similar to 5.0 DRK wouldn't be okay if it were also true of other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Veranolth

DRK does have Dark Missionary and yes I'm well aware GNB has a similar CD

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Seemingly in response to the question "What does DRK do that others can't/ Why bring DRK over another tank?" you gave this answer. Thier "Unique utility" is something another job does exactly the same in current content and DRK can't even do in Ivalice, Omega, the first 2 ultimates, and even several dungeons.

Like maybe my attempt at some facetious humor came off as catty, text is somehwat limiting in that regard but you really did say those things

You're saying you're not trying to come at me personally and be nasty, but your last couple posts feel nasty. I don't have time to waste with that kind of talk. All I'm saying is people are being hyperbolic about DRKs. I'm even admitting that DRK could use some changes (because it really could), but you specifically are so hung up on wanting the last words and being right, and I just don't have the energy to engage with you.

If they end up buffing DRK, good. If not, it's whatever really. That's my last reply to you. Be nasty somewhere else.