Current State of Tank+Healer Synergy

Right now, 3 of the 4 tanks are effectively healers. They each have, every 25s, one button that is a really good heal for either themselves or another party member. WAR effectively have 4 benedictions every 25s. GNB have excogitation every 25s (actual Excogitation is a 45s CD). PLD have a really solid regen every 5s at best, but in practice I would not be surprised if it came out to be every 25s-ish. In practice, this creates a really bad situation where 90% of each healer's kit is redundant or useless every 25s for 3 of the 4 tanks.

While the memes are fun, the reality is not. I had a run of the 83 dungeon where I, as a Sage, died at the beginning of the fight. The GNB was able to continue the fight using nothing but their kit to heal the party while I watched from the sidelines. In the moment, was pretty awesome to see, but this is possible in any dungeon (possibly even the new raids), with any of the tanks except DRK. Right now, healers have a high chance of not having a job to do because 3/4 tanks can heal themselves and others just as well as an actual healer.

As a player, I should not bemoan seeing a DRK in a duty. I should not feel bad just for leveling a DRK simply because it has not self heals. It's okay that tanks can heal themselves, but the amount of healing they offer not only to themselves but also to others is simply ridiculous.

And if the amount of damage in certain duties is so high that it needs those self heals, then the problem isn't the strength of the tanks' kits, but the weakness of the healers'.

IMO, the heals on WAR, PLD, and GNB should be nerfed, and healers should get some buffs to their oGCDs to compensate.

No.

Healers need an overhaul to fit the mold.

I've been seeing WAR no Healer Expert parties in Party Finder.

That says it all lol.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I've been seeing WAR no Healer Expert parties in Party Finder.

That says it all lol.

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PLD no healer expert have done it too.

WAR needs nerfed hard. PLD is fine since they are suppose to be half WHM (if you were around when you had to level two classes in order to unlock the job, PLD was level 30 GLA/15 WHM). They are suppose to have good healing magic.

What bothers me right now is that WAR is starting to heal others and that should not be possible in any way. Why does their group protect healer others? It's clear that someone at SE can't stand the PLD having something that the WAR doesn't.

Agree. Damage needs to go up so we can get back to primarily healing with some dps thrown in

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Originally Posted by SherlockMihan

In practice, this creates a really bad situation where 90% of each healer's kit is redundant or useless every 25s for 3 of the 4 tanks.

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This isn't anything new. It has literally been this way for years. And it's not every 25s. It is the entire fight.

Despite the amount of sustainability most tanks have on their own, they are not invincible and can be killed. 25s might seem like a very short duration between strong self-sustain abilities, but that window is more than sufficient for things to go wrong and end up in a reset.

While I am not a tank main, as a healer main I can tell you that I don't have an issue with the amount of sustainability a tank has. That is not what makes me feel invalid as a healer. What accomplishes that is encounter design. Encounter design is the reason why a boss can't kill a tank to force a reset, and alleviate the rest of the group from their unconscious prison instead of watching a tank dance with the boss. Encounter design is what leads to healers being reduced to spamming one button while playing whack-a-mole with their oGCD heals. It's things like that, that will invalidate not only a healer's kit, but the healer themselves.

Unfortunately, I don't think the issue is fixed by nerfing tank sustainability, and/or increasing potency on healer oGCDs; or doing so will just create another issue in its place, and it could be a less favorable one to boot. Healer and tank synergy is in a bit of limbo, and I feel it is because of how DPS focused encounter design is. I think the only way to get them out, is to take encounter design in an entirely different direction, and much like the metaphor suggests, that would be like turning the cruise ship around.

The problem isn't just that tanks self-heal too much right now (especially WAR), it's also that healers and tanks are fundamentally no longer designed to actually work together at all.

As the poster above mentioned, healers do so much of their healing with instant abilities or passively that it's very difficult to impossible for a tank to be aware of what a healer has up at a given time beyond Benediction (two sentinels per Bene, at least that's easy). The only thing a tank can really know is if their healer feels comfortable enough to be casting DPS spells, and even those have been pared down so hard you have SCH sitting there with 3 of their 4 DPS abilities instant cast, or if they're chain-casting their most expensive spell in a panic. Usually I'm just like "Ok, I push DPS button 1-2 1-2 and turn to the left sometimes put up a defensive cooldown sometimes." Clemency is effectively useless, 99% of the time you're going to get a Tetragammaton or something when you're wasting time casting it and you've pissed off the WHM. How exactly are you supposed to know that's coming? Even Equilibrium, I find I overheal a lot of the time because there's just enough lag between when I use it and my HP pops up that the healer has used one of their abilities on me too.

The same is true to a slightly lesser degree with the tank skills. Like WAR's utility used to be Mantra, which worked in synergy with healers and stacked with Convalescence, on PLD I used to Stoneskin the party top down while WHM did bottom up before a raid ultimate AoE or time a cast to land when I would get a Disease debuff. Now it's just "push button, shield party."

Plus hate has been buffed so much, it's basically impossible for a healer to rip from a tank now. It used to be a PLD had to juggle keeping Blind up from Flash as long as possible and managing hate from the WHM or AoE damage, now you just 1-2, 1-2 and Requiescat sometimes (actually, I start with my caster phase in dungeons so it's more like 1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2)

The only things really left for tanks and healers to coordinate are alternating protective buffs on AoE damage, which is unnecessary for 90+% of content, and holding off big defensive cooldowns while stun is up from Holy if you're running a dungeon with WHM.

Stop forcing me to use gcd heals.

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Originally Posted by SherlockMihan

While the memes are fun, the reality is not. I had a run of the 83 dungeon where I, as a Sage, died at the beginning of the fight. The GNB was able to continue the fight using nothing but their kit to heal the party while I watched from the sidelines. In the moment, was pretty awesome to see, but this is possible in any dungeon (possibly even the new raids), with any of the tanks except DRK. Right now, healers have a high chance of not having a job to do because 3/4 tanks can heal themselves and others just as well as an actual healer.

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I do this in experts on my WAR too if you can't live longer than 30 seconds then I don't need you sorry if you died but if we can't rez you then I'm just gonna continue, that's not my ego going through or anything that's just on the healer/you if you die right as the fight begins. Same thing in the Dead Ends 1st and 2nd boss if the healer dies and I can salvage the group then I'm gonna do it the best way I can if you have to sit on the sidelines then I'd say you need to practice and learn the mechanics rather then eat vulns and die.

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Originally Posted by SherlockMihan

And if the amount of damage in certain duties is so high that it needs those self heals, then the problem isn't the strength of the tanks' kits, but the weakness of the healers'.

IMO, the heals on WAR, PLD, and GNB should be nerfed, and healers should get some buffs to their oGCDs to compensate.

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Healers are not weak, they have ridiculously strong toolkits.

The only thing this really accomplishes is boring healers to death as they endlessly spam their one aoe and toss the tank an oGCD here and there. You wouldn't even need to buff healer oGCD's, decent DRK's are easy to heal in Experts.

What needs to happen is for instances to actually deal real damage even when the group isn't making mistakes. Heavy hitting boss auto attacks, more raidwides and bleeds, real tankbusters, mobs being a threat and so on. There's nothing wrong with tanks and healers having a good toolkit, but they need a reason to use it.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Healers are not weak, they have ridiculously strong toolkits.

The only thing this really accomplishes is boring healers to death as they endlessly spam their one aoe and toss the tank an oGCD here and there. You wouldn't even need to buff healer oGCD's, decent DRK's are easy to heal in Experts.

What needs to happen is for instances to actually deal real damage even when the group isn't making mistakes. Heavy hitting boss auto attacks, more raidwides and bleeds, real tankbusters, mobs being a threat and so on. There's nothing wrong with tanks and healers having a good toolkit, but they need a reason to use it.

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This 100%. Healers are becoming junky DPS.

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Originally Posted by SherlockMihan

Right now, 3 of the 4 tanks are effectively healers. They each have, every 25s, one button that is a really good heal for either themselves or another party member. WAR effectively have 4 benedictions every 25s. GNB have excogitation every 25s (actual Excogitation is a 45s CD). PLD have a really solid regen every 5s at best, but in practice I would not be surprised if it came out to be every 25s-ish. In practice, this creates a really bad situation where 90% of each healer's kit is redundant or useless every 25s for 3 of the 4 tanks.

While the memes are fun, the reality is not. I had a run of the 83 dungeon where I, as a Sage, died at the beginning of the fight. The GNB was able to continue the fight using nothing but their kit to heal the party while I watched from the sidelines. In the moment, was pretty awesome to see, but this is possible in any dungeon (possibly even the new raids), with any of the tanks except DRK. Right now, healers have a high chance of not having a job to do because 3/4 tanks can heal themselves and others just as well as an actual healer.

As a player, I should not bemoan seeing a DRK in a duty. I should not feel bad just for leveling a DRK simply because it has not self heals. It's okay that tanks can heal themselves, but the amount of healing they offer not only to themselves but also to others is simply ridiculous.

And if the amount of damage in certain duties is so high that it needs those self heals, then the problem isn't the strength of the tanks' kits, but the weakness of the healers'.

IMO, the heals on WAR, PLD, and GNB should be nerfed, and healers should get some buffs to their oGCDs to compensate.

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PLD's holy shelltron takes 10 GCDs to build, so with a 2.4s GCD, it's effectively a 24s CD. But you can hold 2 charges too. Also worth noting is every GCD in Requiescat (one per minute) heals the PLD for 400 potency. And then Divine Veil heals the party, but notably not the tank themself. Still, these are all options outside of clemency that can be used to heal self or party as needed. And then the end-of-Requiescat combo gives back the MP Requiescat phase consumed, making clemency more usable in an emergency.

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But, more to the point yes. Healing requirements are lower than ever.

And to those saying SE shouldn't nerf tank heals and should just increase outgoing damage - We've been asking for that for... at least 4 years that I've been counting. Do you really think SE's going to do it now?

Even back in ARR, Regen was enough to heal dungeons alone once people were geared.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I do this in experts on my WAR too if you can't live longer than 30 seconds then I don't need you sorry if you died but if we can't rez you then I'm just gonna continue, that's not my ego going through or anything that's just on the healer/you if you die right as the fight begins. Same thing in the Dead Ends 1st and 2nd boss if the healer dies and I can salvage the group then I'm gonna do it the best way I can if you have to sit on the sidelines then I'd say you need to practice and learn the mechanics rather then eat vulns and die.

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You're not wrong. If players die to avoidable mechanics, it is on them, and as a tank there isn't much you can do to fix the mistakes of others. But you also have to understand that we are human, and we make mistakes. If you're sitting there soloing a boss that still has a huge chunk of HP, you are not doing anyone any favors. Including yourself, and you might even be doing yourself a disservice, as if you just reset, at least 2-3 players will learn from their previous mistake, and you will kill the boss faster. Then there is the fact that if you do clear it, you just carried three to seven other players and prevented those that failed the mechanics a second chance to do them, and they end up learning nothing.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You're not wrong. If players die to avoidable mechanics, it is on them, and as a tank there isn't much you can do to fix the mistakes of others. But you also have to understand that we are human, and we make mistakes. If you're sitting there soloing a boss that still has a huge chunk of HP, you are not doing anyone any favors. Including yourself, and you might even be doing yourself a disservice, as if you just reset, at least 2-3 players will learn from their previous mistake, and you will kill the boss faster. Then there is the fact that if you do clear it, you just carried three to seven other players and prevented those that failed the mechanics a second chance to do them, and they end up learning nothing.

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I agree with both statements to an extend, if a group wipes and the boss is <15%, I'll say fine go ahead and solo it if you feel confident enough to do so. But when the boss has more HP than that it's not nice to take your whole group hostage just to finish the boss on your own. Being able to do that might be cool but it's boring for the rest that are already insecure enough that they made mistakes and died.

@ Ex Trials

SGE: "DRK, don't LD you will die."

Me: "I don't even have that keybinded anymore."

As a Paladin/Scholar main I can say that tank healing isn’t too high. I can still die to trash. As a healer if the tank isn’t using mitigation right/undergeared then I’m happy for a simple run. But it usually is the opposite and I’m getting pushed to my limit. As a healer if I die to bad and the tank can carry by dodging /clemency/sheltron then so be it. I’m bad i deserve to watch him do it right from the floor. And as the tank of the healer sucks i’m either kicking them if i need to/leaving/ or carrying with emmy clemency/sheltron idc

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I agree with both statements to an extend, if a group wipes and the boss is <15%, I'll say fine go ahead and solo it if you feel confident enough to do so. But when the boss has more HP than that it's not nice to take your whole group hostage just to finish the boss on your own. Being able to do that might be cool but it's boring for the rest that are already insecure enough that they made mistakes and died.

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Sorry, I disagree on that. They died because they didn't understand or know the mechanics, or weren't paying attention. Solo'ing and letting them watch, let's them see the mechanics so their next run goes smoother. If it was because they weren't paying attention, then they were "wasting time" for everyone else to begin with, so shouldn't bemoan the tank solo'ing and "wasting their time" back.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I agree with both statements to an extend, if a group wipes and the boss is <15%, I'll say fine go ahead and solo it if you feel confident enough to do so. But when the boss has more HP than that it's not nice to take your whole group hostage just to finish the boss on your own. Being able to do that might be cool but it's boring for the rest that are already insecure enough that they made mistakes and died.

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Agreed. I did want elaborate further on tank flexing, and there is definitely a time and place for it. What % the boss is at that determines when to just solo the remainder is subjective, but ultimately up to the tank doing it to decide.

In any case, the devs could implement an enrage if only one player is up after a few minutes. That would easily take care of this particular encounter design issue. I used to think this was just a dungeon thing, but ohhhh no. Not at all. Already been in that situation myself on my WAR, and I don't even have any EW skills yet.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You're not wrong. If players die to avoidable mechanics, it is on them, and as a tank there isn't much you can do to fix the mistakes of others. But you also have to understand that we are human, and we make mistakes. If you're sitting there soloing a boss that still has a huge chunk of HP, you are not doing anyone any favors. Including yourself, and you might even be doing yourself a disservice, as if you just reset, at least 2-3 players will learn from their previous mistake, and you will kill the boss faster. Then there is the fact that if you do clear it, you just carried three to seven other players and prevented those that failed the mechanics a second chance to do them, and they end up learning nothing.

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I mean I get that but at the end of the day I'd rather just do it with my 2 friends while I heal them and continue on I won't lose sleep if the healer gets upset, now I can understand being like "oh crap I stood in the electro thing in Dead Ends!" then sure, whatever, but if they're actively dying on every boss (which has been happening a lot recently) then I'll just continue. I get it's probably faster but it's just eh, it's not like i'm bullying them or anything just would rather clear while they run back even if it isn't super optimal we're still losing time regardless, but I get your point we are all humans behind the computer and I do take that into the group dynamics.

The number of times I die to a healer screaming for me to use cooldowns when I have none because a fight has a fairly specific cooldown rotation and I die to auto attacks because I got ignored by the healer is enough of a reason for me to say "BS" tank self sustain is in a great place. It's not enough generally to fully solo an EX unless both tanks are healing each other in which case that's some skill flex that tanks have needed for a long time IMO. Tanks helping the healers lets you focus on healing the party, clutch heals and dealing damage. People tend to forget when WAR had bloodbath thier self sustain was almost as good back in HW.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

The number of times I die to a healer screaming for me to use cooldowns when I have none because a fight has a fairly specific cooldown rotation and I die to auto attacks because I got ignored by the healer is enough of a reason for me to say "BS" tank self sustain is in a great place. It's not enough generally to fully solo an EX unless both tanks are healing each other in which case that's some skill flex that tanks have needed for a long time IMO. Tanks helping the healers lets you focus on healing the party, clutch heals and dealing damage. People tend to forget when WAR had bloodbath thier self sustain was almost as good back in HW.

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It’s because I’m realizing more and more this is about good healers wanting to feel pushed to their limits not realizing if the game is balanced around them then it becomes impossible for the casuals and their only retort is “git gud” to the cure 1 spammers. As a 90 scholar and 90 paladin I truly dispise healer mentality and the tanks asking for nerfs to themselves.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

It’s because I’m realizing more and more this is about good healers wanting to feel pushed to their limits not realizing if the game is balanced around them then it becomes impossible for the casuals and their only retort is “git gud” to the cure 1 spammers. As a 90 scholar and 90 paladin I truly dispise healer mentality and the tanks asking for nerfs to themselves.

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Not entirely related, but I think healers tend to be quite vocal on here because they've literally been ignored for 2 expansions now.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Not entirely related, but I think healers tend to be quite vocal on here because they've literally been ignored for 2 expansions now.

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It’s just super salty hyper optimized raiders that are salty. Rest of us are happy with tank buffs and healer changes. Simple but effective less reason to make me go get milk or force then healer/tank to get milk cause they suck.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

It’s just super salty hyper optimized raiders that are salty. Rest of us are happy with tank buffs and healer changes. Simple but effective less reason to make me go get milk or force then healer/tank to get milk cause they suck.

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You would say that because you've been catered to. You literally said in the healer thread that you're constantly using your GCD heals as a SCH even though tanks are basically WHMs now. That's very much a you thing, not people who can play beyond the bare minimum. I'm not hyper optimised, and I'm sure most healers aren't. But there's still some level of skill people want in this game.

At this point healers are gonna need some semblance of a dps rotation if they want the role to be interesting. Or make the boss fights do more dmg. I've always found it funny in this game how trash mobs are the only exciting part for a healer.