The Devs need to put THUDERCLAP without target

As simple as that. MNK lacks on disangeging skills (or aleast efective) and lacks on Ranges attacks, THUNDERCLAP would be awesome if dont need a target, it gives us better mobility to close in and disangeging from target, actually MNK is the only melee that need a mobility action to be on target... please make it real, i love this skill

They've already done this with DNC. MNK needs to be like that because the amount of time it takes to pick a party member, (especially one that is actually out of the aoe) and do your rotation/ogcds is impossible on controller. Keyboard and mouse players have the advantage here but even then I'm sure they will just use a <mo> macro.

I agree, thunderclap needs to just be a dash forward, x amount of yalms, and not need a target to execute.

This exactly. It really needs to just be a dash forward with the option to dash towards a target if you have one because its range is way too short to be what it was advertised as, imo. Which is to say - a lot of people were hyped about monks being able to target their allies out of danger zones and being able to zoom there asap; but due to its short range you can't really do that unless you're already halfway thereby the time you need it.

Having to target a disengage skill as a MNK is quite annoying, but being able to dash right towards the enemy as a gap closer, without a risk of overshooting it is handy, not to mention there's certainly people who enjoy Thunderclap being similar to BLM's Aetherial Manipulation. However, by looking to RPR there is a solution to this that allows for best of both worlds.

Keep Thunderclap the way it is and simply give MNK another ability which moves them backwards without interacting with a target, like RPR's Hell's Egress and similarly to it, shares cd/charges with Thunderclap. Even if you'd like to freely move ahead without a target, you can also do that by turning around beforehand. It can even use the same animation, just in reverse, in order to save on assets.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Having to target a disengage skill as a MNK is quite annoying, but being able to dash right towards the enemy as a gap closer, without a risk of overshooting it is handy, not to mention there's certainly people who enjoy Thunderclap being similar to BLM's Aetherial Manipulation. However, by looking to RPR there is a solution to this that allows for best of both worlds.

Keep Thunderclap the way it is and simply give MNK another ability which moves them backwards without interacting with a target, like RPR's Hell's Egress and similarly to it, shares cd/charges with Thunderclap. Even if you'd like to freely move ahead without a target, you can also do that by turning around beforehand. It can even use the same animation, just in reverse, in order to save on assets.

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Ironically, Samurai's disengage and gap closer is something I think would fit the Monk perfectly, from a mechanical and job fantasy perspective. They are light hits, which fits the idea of Monk being a fast and mobile fighter that delivers damage through many consecutive blows, rather than large single hits (which admittedly is another aspect of the job's identity that has been thrown into the garbage in part due to the half-baked Blitz system turning them into better AoE specialists than Dancer). It makes sense that even as they retreat from an opponent, they would get in a hit, a sort of love-tap/reminder that we're still here. It feeds into the original job's need to keep up the pressure (due to Greased Lightning, and now to a lesser extent with Twin Snakes taking its place). It makes me think of martial arts films where the heroes evade the villain effortlessly while still striking their opponents even as they fall back, or how quickly they move in on an opponent to exploit a gap in their defenses only they can see to land a particularly vicious strike.

Thunderclap is just another idea that sounded really great on paper for Monk, but effectively didn't take into account how difficult it would be to use under duress. It also fails to account for situations where groups want to spread away from eachother, therefore making it just another button that is situational at best. Yes, there are creative macros one could use to bounce to a player in question for situations that call for it, but from a sheer usability standpoint, the Dancer's dash is a better execution of the same basic concept.

Thunderclap as a tool for enabling offense doesn't appeal to me either because FF14 is incredibly lenient with melee range. You don't actually need to stand on the targeting circle to hit something, you can be a fair distance away. And frankly, I've never once, in any single piece of content I've ever played in this game, thought to myself as Monk "Gee, if only I could just teleport right next to the enemy that I've targeted after running away from it!" because we used to have Shoulder Tackle to effectively do that already! Me moving away from the boss was effectively my disengage (the thing that the job actually needed some help with), re-engagement with the boss was already a solved problem. By making a button that tries to do both, then tying it targeting something/someone, they challenge the value of Six Sided Trash as "disengage", while also providing a solution for something we already had an effective answer to.

In the previous expansion, Monk had the problem of too many things dedicated to maintaining a self buff, all of which were questionable to some degree. Now we arguably too many buttons meant to enable disengagement, one of which is universal to everyone in the game.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Ironically, Samurai's disengage and gap closer is something I think would fit the Monk perfectly, from a mechanical and job fantasy perspective.

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Turn Six-sided-star into a disengage that pushes you back "x" yalms and problem solved. SSS is supposed to be a finisher before the boss jumps but it would be much better served as a tool for backing out of an aoe. The skill literally gives you movement speed but I would prefer it just push you back from the target and remove that movement speed entirely. Also, get rid of that long gcd reset from using it. There you just turned a very niche ogcd into something actually useful in most scenarios and you can still keep thunderclap as is.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Turn Six-sided-star into a disengage that pushes you back "x" yalms and problem solved. SSS is supposed to be a finisher before the boss jumps but it would be much better served as a tool for backing out of an aoe. The skill literally gives you movement speed but I would prefer it just push you back from the target and remove that movement speed entirely. Also, get rid of that long gcd reset from using it. There you just turned a very niche ogcd into something actually useful in most scenarios and you can still keep thunderclap as is.

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But at that point, why even bother with Thunderclap existing in the first place? Your modified SSS fixes that skill pretty much entirely, may as well just put in Shoulder Tackle again as our gap closer.

If people want the DBZ ZWEE so badly, they can give us a silly tackle mastery trait that turns it from a basic shoulder tackle to the teleport. As things stand, it just feels like the skill was designed to visually impress first, and everything else about using it came a distant second.

"Having the freedom" to dash has a lot of cons and will cause many ppl to die or atleast not to be where they should be. So far "needing a target" is way better and can even be used at several knockbacks easily to keep uptime. (E.g. Levi)
And in the most cases you´re able to greed for the last skill on max melee range, then you move 1 feet out, back in and continue with GCD rolling. If that´s not possible, you´re going to do better with SSS, which is a good downtime / disengage tool so far.

Imo i really can´t get the hype behind TC. To use it for a disengage is just niche too and definately needs a person you trust. None of the current fights needs that to keep better uptime. And while it´s copied from BLM anyway, we seriously don´t need more homogenization until every class has a premium dash. Don´t even get why SMN or SGE has a dash.

I really don't think this would be necessary.
I am not really against it but I think this is more of a '' I want '' rather than '' I need ''.

They must have limited it due to lore of Ninja being the 'mobility' job. But as an ability I agree, having to target enemies or players to move for most players would be tedious to do especially if they are using controller. They should adjust it to make it a direction input movement boost. So if you're walking forward it propels you in that direction etc. Just keep it only during combat.

Are people with controllers really trying to hyper-optimize, though? If they were they would probably switch to KB/M.

You can always make a macro that immediately targets your tank and jumps to them. That's what I did.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

Are people with controllers really trying to hyper-optimize, though? If they were they would probably switch to KB/M.

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Well. Yes. Mnk doesn't have button bloat, it's fine on controller.

Also to the other person who said you don't need to disengage, I've gotten good use of it in

Phone, can't edit.

-in the first extreme. Bad rng can keep forcing you away. Can eat one stack but can't keep doing it.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

But at that point, why even bother with Thunderclap existing in the first place? Your modified SSS fixes that skill pretty much entirely, may as well just put in Shoulder Tackle again as our gap closer.

If people want the DBZ ZWEE so badly, they can give us a silly tackle mastery trait that turns it from a basic shoulder tackle to the teleport. As things stand, it just feels like the skill was designed to visually impress first, and everything else about using it came a distant second.

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I'm simply suggesting that SSS act similar to SAM yaten. A backstep away from the target. Currently its just a movement speed buff that doesn't stack with sprint or SCH expedient. It slows your gcd, which feels terrible because that time could be used to charge chakras but instead you are punished for using it and have to wait. This change would keep clap they way it is and make SSS more useful than it currently is. Also, the intended way to use SSS isn't ideal as damage registers at the end of the animation so if you are a bit slow or server ticks aren't your friend, you will execute the skill but not deal the damage.

Ultimately, I like clap and how it works but being on controller makes it incredibly clunky to use similar to DRG eye, or 1.0 Nascent Flash but I can't macro it unlike the previous skills so there is literally no work around.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

Are people with controllers really trying to hyper-optimize, though? If they were they would probably switch to KB/M.

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I play on controller on PS4 and I'm always trying to get better at optimization. My main job is Dancer, but I've also been doing a lot of Sage (who also has a Thunderclap equivalent) and was a healer main prior to the gutting of Scholar in Shadowbringers. I can say that single-target casting on controller is not hard--it just takes practice. You need to think ahead a bit and be aware of who's where so that you can use it properly at the right moment.

For me I find KB/M extremely disconnecting from the immersion of the game and have 0 interest in ever transitioning to it, and I've been around the block for plenty of savage content. Even managed to clear T9 on PS3 back during ARR.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I can say that single-target casting on controller is not hard--it just takes practice. You need to think ahead a bit and be aware of who's where so that you can use it properly at the right moment.

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Right, so you're not optimizing. You're accepting an inferior control scheme that creates additional hurdles.

iam okay if they put thunderclap like dancer dash, just dash straight according your character facing.

but iam fine with what we have too, main reason is because our animation is fast, from the moment you press the button you just instantly "teleport" to the location unlike say... ninja that still have this 1 second animation of them doing "smoke bomb" throwing, or BLM which you can see they travel to the location but not as fast as others

sam is the only i can think of in term of "instantaneous" speed, the only thing is they cant target part member

I am fine with the way it works for monk since they need to be in range to do their attacks anyway, but it is sage I feel that has its gap closer needlessly limited by the target requirement

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

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Right, so you're not optimizing. You're accepting an inferior control scheme that creates additional hurdles.

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Way to string a narrative out of what I said. If you do it correctly, that is optimizing. I know a mechanic is coming, and I look for the ranged party members heading to a safe spot. I tell myself that during my next cast, I'll be targeting that ally which makes it easy for me to both target them and weave in Icarus without clipping my GCD, and it's done. It's not a hurdle, it's just how I've learned to play the game.

Can we stop with the control elitism? It doesn't make you a better player or a better person because you play on a keyboard. No one's giving you a medal. Controller players and Clickers have every right to enjoy the game as much as you do without having to hear about how inferior we are to you.

Seconding this, nobody cares about teleporting to a specific target. Just aim and dash, that's why it feels great on RPR or DNC. And I know you're doing it differently for some other classes for identity/difference reasons, but the only difference we're getting is just a usability that feels way worse:

- If I need a target, I can't dash if I'm not in range.
- If I need a target, and if it's not the target i'm hitting, then I need to deselect, select a new target, and then use the ability, all of this in between very fast GCDs. No thanks. And introducing macros for every party member isn't a solution either, I don't have hotbar space for 7 people, on top of macros to be extremely unresponsive for the reasons we all know.
- I sympathize with ninjas, theirs is almost worse to use (ground targeting is awful and in spite of the recent changes, it still is awkward to use, and when you have people macroing this to targets, you're left to wonder why it doesn't just uses targets instead... oh wait, then why not a simple dash?).

Truth be told, I feel that SGE's dash should not require a target as well. Yes they will all be the same as the DNC's... but what else you can do with a dash/gap closer? If Thunderclap doesn't do any damage, requiring a target is just a liability for the sake of it... this doesn't promote interesting gameplay in any situation.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Truth be told, I feel that SGE's dash should not require a target as well. Yes they will all be the same as the DNC's... but what else you can do with a dash/gap closer? If Thunderclap doesn't do any damage, requiring a target is just a liability for the sake of it... this doesn't promote interesting gameplay in any situation.

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If we´re talking about the truth, why does SGE even need a dash? It´s a healer and already mobile af. And the animations are some wings, like wtf?! WHM wings on SGE? Why does the 4 mini-rocket-turrets don´t work as "wings" aka jetpack?

As i´ve said earlier, have a target has it´s pro´s especially for melee classes. You want as fast as possible into melee range and it´s super at certain knockbacks without an antiknockback-skill or mechanics like Shiva icelit in E12s to keep melee-uptime easily. Having some freedom is great too, but i see the "pros of needing a target" as the better ones on any melee class, yes even in PvP.
(And how does a 15y dash on point is interesting gameplay?)

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

If we´re talking about the truth, why does SGE even need a dash? It´s a healer and already mobile af. And the animations are some wings, like wtf?! WHM wings on SGE? Why does the 4 mini-rocket-turrets don´t work as "wings"?

As i´ve said earlier, have a target has it´s pro´s especially for melee classes. You want as fast as possible into melee range and it´s super at certain knockbacks without an antiknockback-skill or mechanics like Shiva icelit in E12s to keep easily melee-uptime. Having some freedom is great too, but i see the "pros of needing a target" as the better ones on any melee class, yes even in PvP.

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I didn't play a lot of SGE, but doesn't some of their actions require melee range on your allies? Anyways, this could all go well if the target was optional.

You have a target? You thunderclap to it... you dont? You thunderclap forward.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I didn't play a lot of SGE, but doesn't some of their actions require melee range on your allies? Anyways, this could all go well if the target was optional.

You have a target? You thunderclap to it... you dont? You thunderclap forward.

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The AOE of SGE works like the SCH one in a circle around you. And you´ve a half-close range damage skill with 45s, which you preferable use in the raid-burstphases or just to move if needed. But with the DoT and overall 1,5s casttime, a dash is seriously not needed. You can move around as you want unless you spam Dosis to do damage.

The 2nd part is atleast something i can agree with. But i guess some ppl will go ham with it. xD

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

The AOE of SGE works like the SCH one in a circle around you. And you´ve a half-close range damage skill with 45s, which you preferable use in the raid-burstphases or just to move if needed. But with the DoT and overall 1,5s casttime, a dash is seriously not needed. You can move around as you want unless you spam Dosis to do damage.

The 2nd part is atleast something i can agree with. But i guess some ppl will go ham with it. xD

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Honestly, I could just see SGE's dash the same way I see DNC's... pure QoL convenience to - for example - give you more error to escape telegraphs. Just like jobs with personal shields... They don't really impact a lot of stuff, but are nice to have when you have a weaving window during an unavoidable AoE.

With DNC, which is the job I'm working on maining, I could do my stuff just as fine without An Avant, because all of the moments I need to be in close-ish range are very predictable every 30s and the job can be moving 100% of the time. I just save An Avant charges for... when I'm distracted and miss telegraph prepositioning or when I want to get there ahead of everybody else to show the safe spot (or not when I'm totally wrong LOL).

DNC doesn't need a dash as per being a rPhys job, especially now that the melee skills arent even used anymore for single target. Yet, it feels great, works great, is a perk of the job, and I'm fine with it. On the other hand you have actual jobs requiring gap closers (melees), and half of them are absolutely awkward or atrocious to use conveniently. The only reason I can see for this is "class identity" because they don't want all the gap closers to work the same... at the cost of usability.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

If we´re talking about the truth, why does SGE even need a dash? It´s a healer and already mobile af. And the animations are some wings, like wtf?! WHM wings on SGE? Why does the 4 mini-rocket-turrets don´t work as "wings" aka jetpack?

As i´ve said earlier, have a target has it´s pro´s especially for melee classes. You want as fast as possible into melee range and it´s super at certain knockbacks without an antiknockback-skill or mechanics like Shiva icelit in E12s to keep melee-uptime easily. Having some freedom is great too, but i see the "pros of needing a target" as the better ones on any melee class, yes even in PvP.
(And how does a 15y dash on point is interesting gameplay?)

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What are the pros of needing a target? I don't really get it? For people playing in standard camera mode or something?

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Originally Posted by Valence

What are the pros of needing a target? I don't really get it? For people playing in standard camera mode or something?

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- You don´t have to turn your camera, if you´ve something in the target, you just click that button to jump to it, no matter if it´s in front or behind you. So far you can execute your last GCD, move 2 steps out and press the dash without and camerawiggling.
- You don´t have to take care about the distance. It´ll always bring you in melee-range and that´s all you want.
- And again, it´s superior to play against a bunch of knockback-mechanics to keep uptime. E.g. Leviathan or even the current P4 raid.
- It´s impossible to jump of the platform or into deadly walls.

- I guess it's a problem on the UI/user's end then. I'm always manipulating my camera, it's effortless for me to do so here and doesn't constitute a con at all in my case. It's as fast and efficient for me to not need the target.

- That's fair enough on the distance issue, although imo never really a problem on gigantic bosses unless very, very specific mechanics involved.

- I don't see how it is superior in Leviathan at all. Actually a lot less hazardous since you have very little control on direction when dashing with a target.

- It's very possible to do it if the platform has gaping holes.

All in all though, as much as I can grant you that some of those cons can pass for cons to my eyes, I've never really had any issue with them on DNC or RPR so far.

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Originally Posted by Valence

- I guess it's a problem on the UI/user's end then. I'm always manipulating my camera, it's effortless for me to do so here and doesn't constitute a con at all in my case. It's as fast and efficient for me to not need the target.

- That's fair enough on the distance issue, although imo never really a problem on gigantic bosses unless very, very specific mechanics involved.

- I don't see how it is superior in Leviathan at all. Actually a lot less hazardous since you have very little control on direction when dashing with a target.

- It's very possible to do it if the platform has gaping holes.

All in all though, as much as I can grant you that some of those cons can pass for cons to my eyes, I've never really had any issue with them on DNC or RPR so far.

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Of course it´s effortless once you got used too it. But it´s more effortless to just press this button. x)

I think you´re talking about E3, but i´m talking about the level 50 trial, which has been the last unreal primal too. You´re able to keep like 100% uptime with a target dash. Just stay where he appears to bounce his head on the platform, you can immediately attack him and at the moment he hits the platform, use your dash.
It´s pretty much impossible with ranged-locked dashes and you´re only able to use your antiknockback 2 times this fight, but a lot more slides gonna happen. I do actually see the same as the current P4. It´s just safe uptime and so far more damage.
And you´ve some control on the dash, it´ll always be a direct dash to the closes point of the targets circle.

Of course it´s no problem if you got used to stuff, but objectively seen a target dash does everything you want as melee without much effort. Not talking about disengages so far.
Just my opinion, but srsly DNC´s dash isn´t that great. The distance is too short, you´re stucked for a moment in the beginning. Often enough, when i dash out of an aoe, i eat it anyway and it feels more like "If i would´ve moved that step, i wouldn´t have gotten some damage." It can be used more freely than RPR´s in small arenas, but there i´m at the point, hey it´s DNC... you can preposition yourself all day long. A dash just for the dance-pull or pvp?

Given the amount of partner/pair mechanics we usually get in savage, I think it's always nice to be able to dash directly to your assigned partner last second.

If they dont want to free target thunderclap, at least gives us a skill to disengage, all melees must have those two essential skills for the role.

Personal opinion for me is that any dash skill that doesn't do damage should work like En Avant. And don't give me that "but then it's the same thing." Thunderclap, Icarus, Aetherial Manipulation, they are all the same skill just with different animations so why not use the superior skill En Avant. Superior imo only but still lol.

Or at least and option in config somewhere to change them. I get mouse players probably like them as they can easily select players but on controller trying to select someone during w/e your are doing, especially while moving, just to get somewhere you probably could have gotten faster by just running, is a little annoying. But I'm a DNC main and am biased for En Avant lol.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Personal opinion for me is that any dash skill that doesn't do damage should work like En Avant.

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Dashs shouldn´t even have some sort of damage on them. It might work in other games, where dashes are GCDs and being there as gap-closer + ressource-gain, but in kind of FF? Dashes with potency will always be used in the burstphases in its priority. It´s a bad design choice.

MNK has a bunch of options to play around downtimes. No need to rely on the "jump to an ally" option anyway. The most times you´ll move that feet out and in again, other times you move out, press 1 time chakra and move in. For rare cases SSS is your choice.
For me it´s just a horrible addition anyway. It doesn´t really fit the class to act like a BLM and it´s not even great to play with that GCD-speed unless you use a macro. (Which i´ll never do on any skill.)

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

This exactly. It really needs to just be a dash forward with the option to dash towards a target if you have one because its range is way too short to be what it was advertised as, imo. Which is to say - a lot of people were hyped about monks being able to target their allies out of danger zones and being able to zoom there asap; but due to its short range you can't really do that unless you're already halfway thereby the time you need it.

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Agreed. Imo if you aren't targeting on something, it should dash in the direction you are facing. The distance should be the present one. If your are targeted to something (remove it from having to target an enemy or teammate to target anything), it will act as it presently does but double or at least increase its range by 50% when using it this way. This will make the move far more flexible, and considering that it does no damage it only makes sense to make it as flexible as possible.