I think 7.0 should focus on reworking old job designs instead of adding new jobs

Let me start by saying i am not against new jobs, but we are at like what 20 jobs now, and some jobs are in big need of proper rework. They should avoid new jobs on next xpac to focus on general combat update (removal of classes for example) and rework jobs that are still being dragged down by outdated mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

Let me start by saying i am not against new jobs, but we are at like what 20 jobs now, and some jobs are in big need of proper rework. They should avoid new jobs on next xpac to focus on general combat update (removal of classes for example) and rework jobs that are still being dragged down by outdated mechanics.

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I agreed with you until that last point. That last point has me worried.

Remember what happened when last we were told there'd be no new healer because they'd be focusing on balancing the existing ones? A decrease in identity, with no noticeable increase in competitiveness.

Aiming straight for streamlining/updates first and foremost sounds like a very quick way to lose further identity with WHM, DRK, etc., still somehow having tools that are "mostly the same as the others' in role, but worse".

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I agreed with you until that last point. That last point has me worried.

Remember what happened when last we were told there'd be no new healer because they'd be focusing on balancing the existing ones? A decrease in identity, with no noticeable increase in competitiveness.

Aiming straight for streamlining/updates first and foremost sounds like a very quick way to lose further identity with WHM, DRK, etc., still somehow having tools that are "mostly the same as the others' in role, but worse".

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I understand why you are afraid but i wasn't talking about making classes simpler but more engaging by replacing meh mechanics with cool and unique ones. Why do PLD and WAR have as class mechanics same thing which is a bar that fills up and u can use on certain skills? Its basic and boring... Dancer is IMO cool class design because its competely unique compared to other classes with dances and it fits the class as well. They could do so much more.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

I understand why you are afraid but i wasn't talking about making classes simpler but more engaging by replacing meh mechanics with cool and unique ones.

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Then all good.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

I understand why you are afraid but i wasn't talking about making classes simpler but more engaging by replacing meh mechanics with cool and unique ones. Why do PLD and WAR have as class mechanics same thing which is a bar that fills up and u can use on certain skills? Its basic and boring... Dancer is IMO cool class design because its competely unique compared to other classes with dances and it fits the class as well. They could do so much more.

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That's because dancer is support, a role that has been neglected by modern MMOs.

I would like one more Scouting job to balance the roster out, but beyond that my OCD would accept if they stopped adding jobs at 20.

If you are interested in unique mechanics for your job, asking SE for a rework will be the very last thing you want to do. Or have the "reworks" of DRK, all the healers, MCH, MNK and SMN taught you nothing?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

If you are interested in unique mechanics for your job, asking SE for a rework will be the very last thing you want to do. Or have the "reworks" of DRK, all the healers, MCH, MNK and SMN taught you nothing?

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I would argue its because they keep adding new jobs so they cant fully commit all resources to doing good reworks. They are spread too thin, 2 new jobs is a lot. What other MMO adds 2 new jobs every xpac?

Asking for a rework is a bad idea. It splits the players of that Job more and you may potentially land with a design philosophy that's even further from what you want. Improvements to what you have should be more sensible.

Tbh other than the story, jobs kind of hype the release even if it’s not to everyone’s taste. It’s something new and different and ultimately what encompasses the core gameplay–combat.

I don’t see them stopping just to “balance” jobs or rework them because like someone else said, that’s harder to do due to community reactions and having to recreate their kit at a base level if you really want a meaningful upgrade.

They’ve expressed that adding new jobs has become harder as gearing and designing unique lore about them gets bigger and bigger. Though that’s the growing pains of a job system, there’s an endless ways to create new jobs.

However given their history of neglecting jobs and even roles, I can see them going to 1 new job per expansion until they’re inspired to make a new job.

As far speculation goes, melee is very popular so they have the most. Caster (3) hasn’t gotten a new job job since StB and Ranged only has 3 as well but DNC was ShB (5.0).

Assuming they’re going to add two dps (which is likely), it’ll likely be a scouting melee dps (Mystic Knight maybe) and a ranged or caster dps–though caster is overdue for a new job with some ff jobs still not utilized (Time Mage, Green Mage, Geomancer, Elementalist). And even if they run out of FF-established jobs, they can always do an original job. Gunbreaker, Astrologian, Sage aren't exactly original but their kits and lore don't reflect the games that had the same weapon type/namesake.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

Let me start by saying i am not against new jobs, but we are at like what 20 jobs now, and some jobs are in big need of proper rework. They should avoid new jobs on next xpac to focus on general combat update (removal of classes for example) and rework jobs that are still being dragged down by outdated mechanics.

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Okay... one thing you should consider is that job design is intrinsically tied to encounter design. For them to do very meaningful changes to one, needs to remake the other as well. For example, if you want to make the act of healing more interesting, you got to look first how the damage from fights are structured and start the change from there.

That's one of the reasons why Blue Mage became a limited job. The concept of job customization (aka a myriad of blue magic) is too outlandish to be inserted as it is in their formulaic fight designs. And that is not saying it's right or wrong to be done, but just looking at how things are in the present.

Alternatively they could mold the job to those parameters to the risk of it becoming Blue Mage just in the name.

Make AST great again please.

Now would be a good time to ditch the ARR class->job system entirely. Add the old 1-30 class quests as optional quest lines so we don't lose them entirely, but ditch the 1-30 class system. They've entirely ditched it as a concept in HW and beyond, and it has held them back in some design cases so just clean it up and make the entire job system uniform across all jobs.

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Originally Posted by storm

Now would be a good time to ditch the ARR class->job system entirely. Add the old 1-30 class quests as optional quest lines so we don't lose them entirely, but ditch the 1-30 class system. They've entirely ditched it as a concept in HW and beyond, and it has held them back in some design cases so just clean it up and make the entire job system uniform across all jobs.

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And have people just start at level 30?

Or do, say, all Gladiators just start, as a level 1 hobo-for-hire, as part of a semi-secretive, highly selective order of royal bodyguards?

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Originally Posted by storm

Now would be a good time to ditch the ARR class->job system entirely. Add the old 1-30 class quests as optional quest lines so we don't lose them entirely, but ditch the 1-30 class system. They've entirely ditched it as a concept in HW and beyond, and it has held them back in some design cases so just clean it up and make the entire job system uniform across all jobs.

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they "ditched" it because you cant very well have a endwalker class start at LVL1 without some VERY jarring problems(like how current RDM gets dual cast trait at LVL 1, but his first spell is learned at level 2. which makes the first enemy in POTD always interesting to fight because i always forget it and try to cast jolt when i have to use my melee attack)


The Class=>job System dosnt really hold ANYTHING back given of how it works with the potential exception of scholar/summoner as that one is just an odd case.
Please tell me where the Class system held them back?


1-30 are meant to introduce the very most basic of basics, Dragoon/lancer learns 8 skills, 7 of which are iirc straight up DMG skills, one is a HP regen on attacks.
WHM/CNJ learns 7 skills up to 30, one is just an upgrade to stone so 6 unique skills, 4 of them are specific healing/raising skills


The ONLY weird thing about the class/job system is that iirc all ARR classes gain a skill at least at lvl50.. whitemage iirc even at 46(via trait dont remember if the trait is WHM speciifc, the Skill is listed under class tho)(not talking about role Abilitys btw but straight up class abilitys)


EDIT:
There is also the situation that in lore non of the new jobs technicaly have a "base class"
EXAMPLES:

a whm must have been a conjurer to evne be able to wield white magic in a fashion required for a whitemage
a BLM must have been a thaumaturge (or at least similiar) to have the affinity to wield black magic.


a MCN gets a gun and a generator and shoots things(oversimplified obviously) there is no prerequisite then the ability to manipulate aether(which most people can do to some capacity)

Yeah i feel the same way. We have a ton of jobs now. They should use the dev time for developing new jobs, to give the existing ones an overhaul.
I do like the way they are playing currently, but we are so far in now, that a fresh change can't hurt.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

If you are interested in unique mechanics for your job, asking SE for a rework will be the very last thing you want to do. Or have the "reworks" of DRK, all the healers, MCH, MNK and SMN taught you nothing?

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Seconded, the last purely beneficial rework they’ve done was Bard in SB after the caster bullcrap in HW. Ever since then every job they reworked has been met with negative reception or positive reception but left mechanically barren (examples include AST loosing card play, SCH loosing DPS, DRK loosing dark arts and MP skill, MCH loosing ammo and turret controls, SMN loosing adds and interplay mechanics turning into essentially a healer DPS kit, MNK loosing both positional and Grease lightening for some half baked blitz idea)

Please no. Every time the dev team has reworked a job, it's been a disaster, and we're still feeling the losses today. Healers (AST's card system, SCH losing Selene, nearly every DPS skill removed, etc.), Bard (trampled over for Dancer, which should have been a buff healer like in XI), Dark Knight (Dark Arts spam was exhausting, especially on controller, but they've yet to replace it with anything meaningful; DRK has been a weaker, edgy version of WAR ever since), and I'm sure plenty of others that I've glossed over.

Of all the flaws in Endwalker, leaving the biggest majority of jobs alone is not one of them.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

Let me start by saying i am not against new jobs, but we are at like what 20 jobs now, and some jobs are in big need of proper rework. They should avoid new jobs on next xpac to focus on general combat update (removal of classes for example) and rework jobs that are still being dragged down by outdated mechanics.

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They LITERALLY reworked Ninja....Monk....Summoner.....Astrologian from the ground up in less than a year? Did you miss the rage threads here? They have been doing exactly what you have wanted. What other jobs do you want reworked? Hell crafting and gathering professions have been reworked atleast 5 times in the last year to try and prevent macros. They turn spearfishing into a mini game lol

For the love of god people please stop giving vague feedback to MMO developers because then they have to assume what will make the players happy and throw crap at a wall.

I agree we have enough jobs and can get an expansion without a new job.

Every time they release a new expansion there is massive downsides to existing jobs.
To me, the whole ranged role needs to be expanded, they went from support DPS to mobile DPS that excels nowhere with no use of their "mobility". Especially after SMN rework making it as mobile as a ranged.

During SB, MCH had massive problems, DRK was a spam job.
During ShB, the ranged role was shafted, DRK has no use for its new Dark side and still suffers TBN/LD, SMN got a rework, NIN got a rework, MNK got a rework due to how awful Anatman was.
Starting EW and we still have most of the same problems, DRK remains with TBN while other tanks gets TBN+, MCH wasn't expanded upon like they said they would do, SMN got a rework that went a bit too far, NIN is a candidate for a new rework, MNK player base is unhappy that their job got reworked instead of expanded upon like they said they would do.

I wish Job Design was at the same level of quality than the music or the story.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

I think 7.0 should focus on reworking old job designs instead of adding new jobs

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While that would be my personal preference, new classes do seem to be a big draw for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

While that would be my personal preference, new classes do seem to be a big draw for a lot of people.

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True vut reworked old jobs could also feel fresh like new class.

There has to be limit on how many jobs we can have due to balance issues and encounter designf.

Also one of the reasons we got reskinned dungeon gear is because they heave to create new gear for new classes every time...

not before we get a greedy rogue and bow classes

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

True vut reworked old jobs could also feel fresh like new class.

There has to be limit on how many jobs we can have due to balance issues and encounter designf.

Also one of the reasons we got reskinned dungeon gear is because they heave to create new gear for new classes every time...

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You mean exactly one job specific set of artifact gear we get per expansion? We haven't had a job which doesn't share gear with previously existing ones since ninja.

I think the Summoner rework needs a rework.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

You mean exactly one job specific set of artifact gear we get per expansion? We haven't had a job which doesn't share gear with previously existing ones since ninja.

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Also older glams for new jobs...

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Originally Posted by ZeraSkiratea

they "ditched" it because you cant very well have a endwalker class start at LVL1 without some VERY jarring problems(like how current RDM gets dual cast trait at LVL 1, but his first spell is learned at level 2. which makes the first enemy in POTD always interesting to fight because i always forget it and try to cast jolt when i have to use my melee attack)


The Class=>job System dosnt really hold ANYTHING back given of how it works with the potential exception of scholar/summoner as that one is just an odd case.
Please tell me where the Class system held them back?

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Specifically yeah, they've cited SMN/SCH as being a problem. Originally they planned to take the class system forward. From Archer you could also get Ranger, and they were planning Musketeer early in ARR like how the limsa pirates use regular guns instead of the special MCH weapons. They didn't ditch it because of needing to start jobs at later levels, or at least not only because of that. They could have easily made classes start at later levels too if they decided they wanted to keep the system. But it was just overly complicated and created more problems than it solved.

There's no reason why they couldn't start the current jobs at level 1, they literally do the same thing. And they could use that chance to permanently divorce SMN and SCH from each other. Also lore is written after the fact to justify game mechanics not the other way around. You seem pretty opposed to the idea, but honestly it would change very little, and just clean up an overly complicated unnecessary, and no longer utilized system.

I would like at least one more job for scouting and casting gear. After that, then a very serious focus on ALL the classes and bringing individual identity back to ALL of them. Because its not just the old jobs that suffer, but the new ones as well, because you know eventually they will be gutted to fix another job.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

Seconded, the last purely beneficial rework they’ve done was Bard in SB after the caster bullcrap in HW.

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Honestly, both being played optimally in the content of their time, I slightly preferred Bowmage to StB Bard.

At least Bard was still a support in HW, instead of "Cycle additional minor mechanics, in mostly rigid sequence, that are group buffs only in the barest technical sense (and the only effect of which is that you end up with even less freedom around/by which to optimize said additional mechanics)." It was also the last time our Heavier Shot procs felt remotely meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

Also older glams for new jobs...

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Which older glams? New jobs don't get any older glams adjusted to them. Allowing reaper to wear previously exisiting dragoon armor requires no work. We don't get older extreme or even ultimate weapons anymore either. Are we talking about all of like six weapons you get for 70-80 stretch?

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

While that would be my personal preference, new classes do seem to be a big draw for a lot of people.

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More jobs means more homogenization as all jobs have to be around the same powerlevel as their peers. And we all know everyone around these parts hates that word.

If nothing else I'd like updates to old versions of new abilities. New movement abilities are snappier, while old ones have animation lag, or aren't instant in some way. Benediction STILL has a gigantic animation delay, while newer instant heals are actually instant. There's a pattern of new and reworked abilities following some sort of new design philosophy when it comes to network lag, buff application, things like the charge system...there's a whole laundry list of polish you could give to old jobs, and that's not even getting into mechanical reworks.

I'm all for balance, but excluding new jobs may anger a large swath of the playerbase. It's a main attraction that keeps people coming back.

Hoping they will work (or rework) current jobs before going to the next expansion.

That being said, it would be cool if they created a "Design a job" contest. Though it won't be a randomly selected contest, it's a judge (by the devs) based contest.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I would like one more Scouting job to balance the roster out, but beyond that my OCD would accept if they stopped adding jobs at 20.

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Could just toss ninja in with aiming, for future expansions, they already do with accessories

Don't fix it if it ain't broke. Reworks are a mixed bag sometimes, they can work out for some of course, but for others it might ruin their job. I think consistency has its appeal and you shouldn't compromise with less.

I would rather more jobs 3/7 of the jobs are using swords. There isnt enough unique weapons and we missing alot of things.

And to be honest the only decent rework they have done is with summoner.

Ast is pure trash after stormblood they completely ruined the fun with the cards.

Bard was basically ruined the second they stripped foe requirm

I can't see SE releasing an expansion that didn't contain new jobs. Business wise, it is the best interest of the devs to keep releasing new jobs, ie new class fantasies for the players, as this 1. generates hype for the expansion which is basically marketing, 2. adds new class fantasies to the game that help retain and attract players, and 3. adds a new grind to the game (levelling and gearing the job) which retains players for longer and boosts revenue.

Hunter is the most popular class in WoW, and FFXIV has no equivalent. The fantasy of taming, raising, and fighting alongside your pet companion is very appealing. If FFXIV were to introduce a Beastmaster class, so many people would hop over. With WoW as vulnerable as it is, I can't imagine Beastmaster not being on the table. The time to strike is now. I suspect the permanent Egis the Summoner had at their side might have been removed to make room for an incoming beastmaster job.

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Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

More jobs means more homogenization as all jobs have to be around the same powerlevel as their peers. And we all know everyone around these parts hates that word.

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Parity =/= homogeneity. Nor does parity require homogeneity.

Any time the first appears to a dev team to require the latter, it means their encounters are poorly designed and/or their total bank of undermechanics too shallow.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

They LITERALLY reworked Ninja....Monk....Summoner.....Astrologian from the ground up in less than a year? Did you miss the rage threads here? They have been doing exactly what you have wanted. What other jobs do you want reworked? Hell crafting and gathering professions have been reworked atleast 5 times in the last year to try and prevent macros. They turn spearfishing into a mini game lol

For the love of god people please stop giving vague feedback to MMO developers because then they have to assume what will make the players happy and throw crap at a wall.

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Game changes are mostly done based on japanese feed back anyways.

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Originally Posted by Nazrus

Let me start by saying i am not against new jobs, but we are at like what 20 jobs now, and some jobs are in big need of proper rework. They should avoid new jobs on next xpac to focus on general combat update (removal of classes for example) and rework jobs that are still being dragged down by outdated mechanics.

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Ye I think the need to do so as well. But I think the old class need to be made it's thing. Then a bard be a bard and there be an archer/hunter as well. They can't just delete them as then they will need to remake the character creation and they really don't like to touch this place. But to much jobs now in a strange place. Why play dancer?why play pal? scholar?