World first races in FFXIV

With the upcoming release of the savage wing and as someone who just returned to the game after a long break, I was curious and watched some previous ffxiv world first VODs.
What I found was disgusting, people are streaming world firsts using cheats and programs that are against the ToS, in particular let's say "calculators" were used and programs used to modify ground markers at inhuman speeds.
Then I watched other raider streams and people openly stream themselves using these calculators as if it's nothing.
So my questions are, are cheated world firsts endorsed by square enix, and are cheated world firsts endorsed by the ffxiv community?

Most, if not all, prog raiders use third-party tools. That doesn't mean it's right, but it's a known fact of any high-end raiding that additional software is often used to interpret data and provide the user analytics or additional information to react accordingly. It's not just limited to FFXIV either, where possible and in most every other MMO that can be modified in a similar manner, that behavior exists, take WoW's most recent WF on Mythic Sylvannas for example.

Square clearly states their stance on their Prohibited Activities page:

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■Behavior that disrupts the game balance
Square Enix strictly prohibits the use of third-party programs or tools as these disrupt the balance of the game. Third-party programs and tools that permit automated or "absentee" play are prohibited. A Game Master (GM) may speak to players to investigate and confirm "absentee" play, and if the player continues with this behavior, contrary to the GM's instructions, they will be treated as participating in "absentee" play and subject to penalties.

Accordingly, the following activities are prohibited:

- Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse-engineering game software or data.
- Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.

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Despite this there are still shades of grey as to what is immediately harmful, and what isn't, it doesn't take long to understand Square obviously doesn't endorse third party tools or cheating by reading the above. The lesser evil, widely and freely available kind are often overlooked as a staple of the MMO community as a whole. Square could opt to ban creators and players who utilize these tools, but their primary focus has always been how tools such as those affect the community and it's players, parsing comes to mind as a big example of third party tools that can be used to harass or provoke another user. There are cases of users being banned for their behaviour using these tools, but not necessarily the use of the tools themselves, as many more users are happy to use them without levelling disdain for other players by the merit of the information found therein.

Are cheated world firsts endorsed by the community? Well, there's no major community outcry against using these tools from what I've seen beyond the occasional thread about parsers, so I'd wager endorsement is subjective entirely based on your personal values. These tools have been around for years for a reason.

Can we not bring the world first crap to this game.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

Can we not bring the world first crap to this game.

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I'm not sure what you mean. World first has been around since ARR, when SE even congratulated Blue Gartr for their WF T5 kill.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I'm not sure what you mean. World first has been around since ARR, when SE even congratulated Blue Gartr for their WF T5 kill.

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I know it's been around since ARR but i just don't want the culture that surrounds WF to come here. Like eSports i can't stand it because when that stuff becomes the focus everything else is secondary.

maybe i'm just bitter.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

I know it's been around since ARR but i just don't want the culture that surrounds WF to come here. Like eSports i can't stand it because when that stuff becomes the focus everything else is secondary.

maybe i'm just bitter.

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Yes you are just bitter!

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

I know it's been around since ARR but i just don't want the culture that surrounds WF to come here. Like eSports i can't stand it because when that stuff becomes the focus everything else is secondary.

maybe i'm just bitter.

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Then just dont watch world first streamers or go into threads about world first races, simple solution.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Then just dont watch world first streamers or go into threads about world first races, simple solution.

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Yea that's how the world works. "if you don't like X then don't talk about X in a thread about X"

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

Yea that's how the world works. "if you don't like X then don't talk about X in a thread about X"

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Are you forcing yourself into every thread on this forum? That sounds like a terrible idea. I dont enjoy reading the tales from DF thread, does that mean I have to go in there and tell everyone how little I like the thread they care about? Or does it mean I can just leave them be because they are not affecting me if I dont open that thread?

Well actually, since TEA (and because of) we can no longer modify markers in combat, so only thing left are parsers.

And yes, Yoshi congratulated teams that performed WF on ultimates, which surprise surprise, used parsers.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

Yea that's how the world works. "if you don't like X then don't talk about X in a thread about X"

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While there are some things in the world that can't be ignored and won't go away if you try...

This is a bit like complaining that there's a show you don't like on netflix. Believe it or not, not all of them were made to cater to you, and yes, you can ignore the ones you don't like.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

Yea that's how the world works. "if you don't like X then don't talk about X in a thread about X"

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Yeah that's literally how threads work. What?

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Well actually, since TEA (and because of) we can no longer modify markers in combat, so only thing left are parsers.

And yes, Yoshi congratulated teams that performed WF on ultimates, which surprise surprise, used parsers.

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I don't get it, if it is known that they used parsers and their character names are known, then why are they not banned? It says it clearly in the Terms of Service, the EULA and the code of conduct that any usage of third party tools is strictly forbidden and will result in a suspension.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

With the upcoming release of the savage wing and as someone who just returned to the game after a long break, I was curious and watched some previous ffxiv world first VODs.
What I found was disgusting, people are streaming world firsts using cheats and programs that are against the ToS, in particular let's say "calculators" were used and programs used to modify ground markers at inhuman speeds.
Then I watched other raider streams and people openly stream themselves using these calculators as if it's nothing.
So my questions are, are cheated world firsts endorsed by square enix, and are cheated world firsts endorsed by the ffxiv community?

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Not only are they not endorsed, but Yoshi P said in a recent media tour interview, that they can not support or endorse any world first races unless they took a hard stance on third party software that modifies or reads the games code.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I don't get it, if it is known that they used parsers and their character names are known, then why are they not banned? It says it clearly in the Terms of Service, the EULA and the code of conduct that any usage of third party tools is strictly forbidden and will result in a suspension.

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by your logic you using discord to communicate or youtube / internet to watch guides should be banned as well. It is 3rd party tools after all.

See how suddenly vague it becomes? Henceforth, if it does not mess directly if game files / modify packets sent to the server, it's ok

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I don't get it, if it is known that they used parsers and their character names are known, then why are they not banned? It says it clearly in the Terms of Service, the EULA and the code of conduct that any usage of third party tools is strictly forbidden and will result in a suspension.

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For a start, this would make assassinations very easy - it's already happened on the community level. Post a screenshot or video of someone with windows that looks like a cheat (like a hardcore hack, not just a parser) and you can get someone kicked from their static, banned from the larger FF14 discords, etc etc. Do you really want SE piling on a formal punishment on top of that?

But more to the heart of your issue.

SE's policy is "Don't ask, don't tell." If SE actually took a hardline stance in line with what's written de jure, they'd do serious and irreparable harm to their playerbase. So they go "guys, knock it off" and issue a few suspensions every time it gets a bit too far out of hand or becomes too visible in game, but otherwise turn a blind eye to it.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

I know it's been around since ARR but i just don't want the culture that surrounds WF to come here. Like eSports i can't stand it because when that stuff becomes the focus everything else is secondary.

maybe i'm just bitter.

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The culture and community that surrounds and thrives world first activities are toxic to a detrimental level. The game is made worse by it. You might be bitter, but you are also not wrong to feel the way you do. There are MMORPG's out there where toxic competition is praised and endorsed.

So while it may be possible to "ignore" the race itself and the e-sports trash that comes with it, ignoring the effects it has on the game, the genre, and community is not possible.

I enjoy watching the usual raid teams progging while I try to struggle through in party finder and glean insight from their strats.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

The culture and community that surrounds and thrives world first activities are toxic to a detrimental level. The game is made worse by it. You might be bitter, but you are also not wrong to feel the way you do. There are MMORPG's out there where toxic competition is praised and endorsed.

So while it may be possible to "ignore" the race itself and the e-sports trash that comes with it, ignoring the effects it has on the game, the genre, and community is not possible.

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Exactly this. Thank you for the better wording.

I don't care about first races. I want to see world last races. Whoever is the last group in the world to finish it wins.

This is also part of the problem with those that say there is nothing to do. They take time off of work and rush the content asap the complain they ran out of content.

About 3rd party tools, none of them should be used in raiding. No not even discord. They want the difficulty, they should stop trying to make it easy with said tools.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

I don't get it, if it is known that they used parsers and their character names are known, then why are they not banned? It says it clearly in the Terms of Service, the EULA and the code of conduct that any usage of third party tools is strictly forbidden and will result in a suspension.

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Three relatively simple reasons:
1) Square Enix doesn't accept any evidence they are not fully in control of as a basis for disciplinary actions. No screenshots, videos, streams or anything. All of those can potentially be faked and they just don't want to deal with the ensuing mess that acting on such evidence can cause. In practice it leads to in-game chat logs being the only reliable source of evidence they will consider.
2) Square Enix has no interest in developing or utilizing an anti-cheat software that checks what are you running on your machine. Both from moral and legal privacy-protection standpoint. Paired with the previous point it leads to all the rules you mention being entirely unenforceable outside of players blatantly bragging about their third party tools in in-game chat.
3) In the end, to please the most players Square Enix are actually pretty happy maintaining the status quo. Going hard against any third party software alienates the "hardcores" who are looking to review their performance. Allowing players to openly talk about dps numbers and exclude players based on them upsets the "casuals". The current situation with third party tools being a "grey zone" and following "fight-club" rules where mentioning them in-game will lead to trouble but actually utilizing them for personal improvement is allowed to stay under the radar is agreeable if not perfect for most players.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

The culture and community that surrounds and thrives world first activities are toxic to a detrimental level. The game is made worse by it. You might be bitter, but you are also not wrong to feel the way you do. There are MMORPG's out there where toxic competition is praised and endorsed.

So while it may be possible to "ignore" the race itself and the e-sports trash that comes with it, ignoring the effects it has on the game, the genre, and community is not possible.

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Realistically it's going to be difficult to prove any detrimental effect world first races have on ff14's community in its entirety so this is little more than just wildly assuming things. The game is as casual friendly as ever and the community is largely casual aswell.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

The culture and community that surrounds and thrives world first activities are toxic to a detrimental level. The game is made worse by it. You might be bitter, but you are also not wrong to feel the way you do. There are MMORPG's out there where toxic competition is praised and endorsed.

So while it may be possible to "ignore" the race itself and the e-sports trash that comes with it, ignoring the effects it has on the game, the genre, and community is not possible.

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Yes, calling something "toxic" and "trash" just on the basis of differing interests and definition of "enjoyment" is definitely a much better culture to promote.

Putting aside the whole third-party discussion that's been beaten to death already. My question is: third party plugins are up for world first kills? I've checked a few videos and didn't see anything. What vids are you watching? Third-party add-ons often drop at patch launches so players tend to ignore them. At most I would expect some of them to be available towards the end portion of the race?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Realistically it's going to be difficult to prove any detrimental effect world first races have on ff14's community in its entirety so this is little more than just wildly assuming things. The game is as casual friendly as ever and the community is largely casual aswell.

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For me it's my experience with another MMO that went from enjoyable to unplayable around the time they started to focus on world first races and eSports.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

I know it's been around since ARR but i just don't want the culture that surrounds WF to come here. Like eSports i can't stand it because when that stuff becomes the focus everything else is secondary.

maybe i'm just bitter.

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I wouldn't worry about it for Savage; it's not enough of a race for most people to care. Ultimate, though...

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

For me it's my experience with another MMO that went from enjoyable to unplayable around the time they started to focus on world first races and eSports.

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And what is your experience in this game? Clearly you have been around here for a long time if your join date is Nov 2013.

Can already see this WF race being deemed too scuffed to truely account as a WF. If a group ends up losing members to dc and queue, the rage will certainly be overflowing.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Yes, calling something "toxic" and "trash" just on the basis of differing interests and definition of "enjoyment" is definitely a much better culture to promote.

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Doubt many people even know who participates in the race, or what they've done for the community lol. But you know, despite that let's just point fingers at the good players and call them names. Because that's right and not toxic at all.

Well it is illegal to use parsers and cactbot that all or most savage/ultimate people do, there is no grey area if you actually read the ToS.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Realistically it's going to be difficult to prove any detrimental effect world first races have on ff14's community in its entirety so this is little more than just wildly assuming things. The game is as casual friendly as ever and the community is largely casual aswell.

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and Id like to see it stay that way or go even more so in that directions.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Well it is illegal to use parsers and cactbot that all or most savage/ultimate people do, there is no grey area if you actually read the ToS.

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It is a grey area if you try to understand the intent behind said ToS. If you actually read the ToS and take them word for word using discord should get you a ban aswell. Try to understand the spirit of the law, not the word of the law.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Well it is illegal to use parsers and cactbot that all or most savage/ultimate people do, there is no grey area if you actually read the ToS.

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Its only a grey area because SE, in my 30+ years of gaming, is the first company that openly allows their own rules to be broken when they see fit. Only after enough fuss is raised about the third party software will they ever actually take action.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Well it is illegal to use parsers and cactbot that all or most savage/ultimate people do, there is no grey area if you actually read the ToS.

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The grey area is in the enforcement. By the ToS, Discord is also a third-party tool and not ok to use. Grabbing your logs and entering data into a spreadsheet could also be considered a third-party tool. There are a lot of grey areas and things that don't need enforcing. In fact, they've said multiple times that they don't want to enter an enforcement war with players because it takes away from the development and is never-ending. Unless you use said tools to attack other players, they usually won't bother. They of course worded the ToS to give them free rein over any decision they make. That doesn't mean they need to use it.

And that's without even looking into the reality of the situation. Which is that some of the higher-end content requires you to execute your job really well (especially at minilvl). The game doesn't give you tools to know which materias you should meld, or even to some extent, which rotation you should use etc. These in turn come from deductions made by other players using third-party tools to extract the information. In the same way, in order for you to progress your own playstyle and improve to that level, you need to gauge your current execution and any subsequent performances. To do that you need tools that the game doesn't provide. Enter third-party tools.
This is a big reason why, despite never agreeing to an in-game parser, SE has turned a blind eye to those who use these tools for personal growth. So long as it doesn't become a tool to harass other players.

From a world-first perspective, these tools don't work on launch for the most part so it's a non-issue. And it's really up to the world first players to decide if it's harming their experience or not. For everyone else it's very much a case of "mind your own business" since you really shouldn't care that John and Jane are using cactbot in their raids. You're free to make your own group with a no third-party rule.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

And what is your experience in this game? Clearly you have been around here for a long time if your join date is Nov 2013.

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Pretty good, only experienced some toxicity since ARR's closed beta.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Putting aside the whole third-party discussion that's been beaten to death already. My question is: third party plugins are up for world first kills? I've checked a few videos and didn't see anything. What vids are you watching? Third-party add-ons often drop at patch launches so players tend to ignore them. At most I would expect some of them to be available towards the end portion of the race?

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Ravahn has been able to update his plugin at a faster and faster rate over the years (barring when he goes on vacation lmao), it usually takes anywhere from 6-18 hours for an update to come out depending on what's going on IRL for the people that maintain it.

WF racers lean more into things like datamining to try to get an edge, generally. They're the caliber of players that have little to no need for things like ACT/cactbot triggers.

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Originally Posted by Skyclaw726

Can we not bring the world first crap to this game.

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Like it or not, it exists and it will.
Your experience =/= every FFXIV players.

Thank you.

As long as that all stays with the WF people and raiders that's fine but it does on occasion bleed into other content that it is absolutely not necessary for. You get someone in your duty roulette that gets all bent out of shape because you're not pushing the same amount of DPS as the top parser in a savage raid and it turns into a terrible experience for all. These instance are incredibly rare so it's not a real concern but the more attention that is paid or the more lauded WF and raiders get in game the worse it will become.

World first gets eyes on the game. SE likes having eyes on their game. Simple as.