Dragoon is too heavy now.

I like what's new in dragoon with 6. 0

However, more ability and shorter cooldown means dragoon needs to do double weaving ALL THE TIME,arrange multiple actions with moving in 20 seconds.

Dragoon is now dealing more direction requirements than anyother melee dps, meanwhile dealing less damage than others, also dealing with the heaviest combo, and spineshatter/dragonfire dive did not make dragoon more flexible but stupid, aslo this two have no link with other skills.
In a word, FRUSTRATING.
I think dragoon needs more incoming change.
I suggest following changes:

Spineshatter Dive : potency changed from 250 to 0, now grants 2 stacks of Weakness Thrust to target.
Weakness Thrust Effect: guaranteeing that all Jump, High Jump, Stardiver are critical and direct hits.
Duration : 25s

Dragonfire Dive: Now also creates a patch of burned earth at target's feet, increase enemy's damage taken from Geirskogul, Nastrond, Wyrmwind Thrust by 10%.
Duration: 20s

Raiden Thrust: Now also extends Power Surge duration by 15s to a maximum of 30s.

Life surge: Now also grants Dragon Blood.
Dragon Blood Effect: Nullifies all action direction requirements.
Duration: 9s

Thank you for reading this.

I agree dragoon seems underwhelming in term of DPS compared to his melee counterpart looking at parses. I don't think it needs a class overhaul like you're suggesting. If anything, it needs a potency buff to it's major cooldowns like Stardiver from 500 to 700 and Dragonfire dive from 300 to 500. I would also buff lance charge from 10% to 15%. This would likely put them on par with reaper.

I dont agree it's only about numbers, but also about linking skills together, and dragoon shouldnt be a class without flexibility.
There is too many ability to weave now, i agree arranging ability is part of dragoon's style, but the situation at this moment is not what it should get.

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Originally Posted by CyanChan

more ability and shorter cooldown means dragoon needs to do double weaving ALL THE TIME,arrange multiple actions with moving in 20 seconds.

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As a disappointed ex-MNK-main, it sounds like I should be levelling EW DRG now.

We don't need any more jobs tossed into the simplification grinder, no sir.

The rotation feels fluid and simple to me. It's just our big flashy abilities don't have very high potency, which significantly impacts how fun these feels to use. Look at ninja. 1200 potency every minute. Awesome. Communio, 1000. Awesome. Phantom Rush, 1000. Awesome. Kaeshi: Setsugekka, 990. Awesome (why not 1000 I dunno). Dragoon...Stardiver 500. Ya... I get it you get a bunch of wyrmwind thrust. Doesn't change the fact it's a lot less fun to do 3 attacks to deal what all other melee do with theirs. Make Stardiver bigger, make it single target I don't know but it's such an easy fix to make dragoon feel good.

I think battle litany needs to be changed as well either it grants Dragoon an Eye so get into life of dragon sooner or its crit rate is increase a little

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Originally Posted by FFWinner

I agree dragoon seems underwhelming in term of DPS compared to his melee counterpart looking at parses. I don't think it needs a class overhaul like you're suggesting. If anything, it needs a potency buff to it's major cooldowns like Stardiver from 500 to 700 and Dragonfire dive from 300 to 500. I would also buff lance charge from 10% to 15%. This would likely put them on par with reaper.

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This!

I love the job, but the only thing I would like to see changed is the potency of Stardiver. You work to get into life of the dragon and the capstone ability within life of the dragon just feels…. underwhelming. Looks absolutely unreal animation wise but I feel the potency could be adjusted as you suggest to make the build up of getting into life of the dragon a bit more rewarding and bump the dps a little.

That being said I am not sure a potency increase will occur given the utility the job brings. But I would still like to see the potency increase for Stardiver regardless!

There are 2 things that bug me about Dragoon. In casual play having to rely on 2 10% buff CDs to compete with something like reaper that just has big numbers without the need of a cooldown is very apperant and deters me from wanting to play Dragoon in casual content.

For raiding. It feels decent when everything is going well.... the problem is, with the change to LC being 60 seconds, there is no room for error. If a boss has downtime or you cannot jump when jump Is off CD there is no way to get back to a good groove. It becomes difficult to realign yourself because you shouldn't hold your cooldowns and the timers are so tight you just have to keep going knowing your rotation is skewed for the rest of the fight.

I

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

We don't need any more jobs tossed into the simplification grinder, no sir.

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I dont think anyone is asking for simplification, but what is there is way too tight... no freedom at all

I for one will ask for simplification. There really isn't a reason for fang and claw and wheeling thrust to be 2 seperate buttons. They do the exact same thing with minor differences in triggers, this could easily be 1 button that switches between whichever is available or just be fang and claw always.

I am actually enjoying DRG a lot, I was a tad disappointed with Reaper but Reaper + DRG share gear and my enjoyment of DRG has actually put the two on the table as potential new mains ( I am still leaning in NIN direction or wait to see future patches with MNK ).
But yeah.

My main issue with DRG really is that the jumps feel too weak, I am not sure I'd rather take less jumps because I like the amount of ogcd's a lot funnily enough DRG feels faster to play than MNK to me right now which is kinda sad for MNK...
But at the same time it's a bit silly perhaps that jumps don't deal more damage and DRG doesn't have a big hitter which I've kinda come to expect.
It's not necessarily a bad thing I don't really find Communio that exciting on Reaper I actually think it feels pretty underwhelming to use.
But Stardiver on DRG definitely feels like it should hit harder.

It's a bit strange too that Dragonfire Dive doesn't hit harder long cds should hit harder than that.
I think that maybe it's just an old design still remaining because it's AoE but I mean we have way harder hitting AoE skills and even if it'd be too op it can still have a drop off on more targets.

But yeah, I've leveled DRG every exp and just left it after dinging max level.
But I've been enjoying it thus far while leveling.

Thematically I am significantly more into MNK and NIN but DRG and Reaper I'd probably say I'd had the most consistent fun on thus far.
Even if Reaper definitely has lows and was disappointing it's still fun and DRG just feels smoother to me.

Numbers and performance issues aside, which i agree do absolutely matter and its stupid how currently reaper has the personal dps of samurai while their 2 min cd has the same power of battle litany, i feel like the main issue is not that you press a lot of buttons, its that some of those buttons are not fun to press, at least for me:

-life surge feels ancient design, you press it because its there, the only semi interesting thing is that you can life surge an aoe attack in dungeons but id argue its not worth it, in my opinion it should be removed completely, adjusting the potency of the finishers accounting for it, and replaced with another defensive skills, either personal or raidwide, but a button that you press if you are going to take damage, cause currently the heal portion if mostly wasted because no one holds life surge for healing. Alternatively, the easiest band aid fix is to make it so the next weaponskill is a guaranteed crit direct hit, so at least it guarantees the dopamine spike of !!! damage, which would be better than nothing

-spineshatter dive is the worst jump to press, its slow, it locks you for a long time, doesnt have a flashy animation, and yet its the jump you press the most during the opener, because it does some damage and you have 2 charges of it. It feels good when you use it to gapclose, so i would suggest keeping it around for just that purpose, make it have a drastically lower potency, even 0, so that it is clear its the gap closer skill, and it fullfils a similar purpose to reaper's gates, which give you a small damage boost only if you are out of range, they are clearly mobility skills first and foremost and that is what you should use them for. In my opinion, giving 2 charges to dragonfire dive while reducing spineshatter potency and balancing around that, would make the job more satisfying.

These are only 2 skills, but with 2 charges each they are what makes the opener/burst windows busy currently, and the payoff for it isnt that good either, again numbers and potencies are easier to fix, but currently dragoon makes you do more work, more positionals, and lock yourself in place for less damage AND utility than reaper, which is just not good balancing.

Also completely unrelated but the sound effects on wyrmwind thrust and heaven's thrust should be way more impactful, wyrmwind thrust is almost not felt when you throw it, and heaven's thrust lacks a lot of power compared to old full thrust's jet engine sound, which is weird since the animation is a lot more flashy.

I agree. The opener just feels painful to get right and the overall DPS feels low for all the work you put in.

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Originally Posted by FFWinner

I agree dragoon seems underwhelming in term of DPS compared to his melee counterpart looking at parses. I don't think it needs a class overhaul like you're suggesting. If anything, it needs a potency buff to it's major cooldowns like Stardiver from 500 to 700 and Dragonfire dive from 300 to 500. I would also buff lance charge from 10% to 15%. This would likely put them on par with reaper.

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Parses don't show rDPS though. Are you not taking into account the extra damage of the group from your own DS/BL? Parsers won't show that but logs will.

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Originally Posted by FFWinner

I agree dragoon seems underwhelming in term of DPS compared to his melee counterpart looking at parses. I don't think it needs a class overhaul like you're suggesting. If anything, it needs a potency buff to it's major cooldowns like Stardiver from 500 to 700 and Dragonfire dive from 300 to 500. I would also buff lance charge from 10% to 15%. This would likely put them on par with reaper.

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yeah this, DRG rotation right now is really... smooth is the best word i can say. we just lacking something oomph as the finisher, all class has this big finisher with ridiculous (700+) potency, and our stardiver which suppose? to be our big finish is just measly 500 potency

we dont need any change, we just need potency buff

I really hope that they buff the jumps, it's the niche of DRG and DRG's damage right now is pretty low.
Give the jumps a bump to make them feel better to use and buff their damage.

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Originally Posted by gumas

yeah this, DRG rotation right now is really... smooth is the best word i can say.

we dont need any change, we just need potency buff

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I disagree. I can see why people say DRG rotation is smooth and on the surface, it is. I personally feel this is the least smoothest DRG has been for a long time now. It feels great if you follow the opener and then hit your CDs asap down to like milliseconds lol. Especially with our first 2 trials the moment something goes wrong or you cannot jump or down time misaligns your cooldown. It feels the worst it has ever felt and definitely not smooth.

If the choices are absolute and unflexible smoothness or something like we had in shadowbringers with choice to delay and to work around that more. I would 100% choose the latter

Just finished second extreme trial as dragoon, not only I was beaten by the repear on Dps by a lot,I was going crazy with my rotation and had to make sure I don’t jump lock myself to death.

Dragoon reward for all this button pushing isn’t worth it, can you buff our damage, our rotation isn’t simple on intense fight when you take jumping into account. I legit have to delay drive on some boss phases because of risk of death.

you cant compare the dps to reaper at least right now, its the "new kid on the block" class and its very powerful even more so than SAM which is already a pure dps with no raid/party buff at all

reaper is so going to get nerf in the future, or maybe other get buff instead

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Parses don't show rDPS though. Are you not taking into account the extra damage of the group from your own DS/BL? Parsers won't show that but logs will.

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DRG is 400 to 500 DPS behind RPR, regardless of rDPS, aDPS or nDPS. Just look at the logs, made by parses.

Numbers are gonna get fixed, I don't think it's really a prio to have things be all that balanced before the first raid tier.
FFXIV has a very long history of good balance, sure not perfect but nothing ever is and other MMO's come nowhere close to being as balanced pretty much ever as FFXIV always has been.
It's not like the devs are just now all of the sudden going to screw it up just because on launch day it's not that great.

I do find it interesting that "feels better to use" is getting associated with potency. I get if it plays badly or is busy, but giving a potency buff doesn't suddenly make the job fun. But if the meaning is for competition between dps classes damage sure, to each there own.

I just hope drg doesn't become even easier...than it already is. Sometimes we get an over correction in the attempt to adjust gameplay (sigh).

I find the new drg to be burst plus sustain level of busy. And I'm glad there is something to do in between the rail guided 5 gcd post-burst. But...that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Evos

I do find it interesting that "feels better to use" is getting associated with potency. I get if it plays badly or is busy, but giving a potency buff doesn't suddenly make the job fun. But if the meaning is for competition between dps classes damage sure, to each there own.

I just hope drg doesn't become even easier...than it already is. Sometimes we get an over correction in the attempt to adjust gameplay (sigh).

I find the new drg to be burst plus sustain level of busy. And I'm glad there is something to do in between the rail guided 5 gcd post-burst. But...that's just me.

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At least for me, feeling better and potency relate in the sense that it feels bad to know that you put in more effort, do more positionals, and animation lock yourself to do less damage than reaper, which also has more utility, like you are being punished performance wise for picking a worse class in every aspect, ofc many people dont care about it, but some definitely do.

About you second point, i agree i enjoy pressing buttons am happy you have something to do in between gcds, i just think those buttons you press could be way more satisfying, sure it adds some complexity to weave lifesurge twice during lance charge, but is it fun? Id be fine with dragoon having the casts per minute it currently has, but i just think it would be even better if all those casts felt good instead of some of them feeling weak.

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Originally Posted by Evos

I do find it interesting that "feels better to use" is getting associated with potency. I get if it plays badly or is busy, but giving a potency buff doesn't suddenly make the job fun. But if the meaning is for competition between dps classes damage sure, to each there own.
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Jesus I agree with this 100% what’s tangible is the only thing that matters, not the numbers that are never really by all end all, sort of speak.

Some people delude themselves into thinking more
Potency plays better but realistically it doesn’t and it’s all in your head, tenfold if your doing core which without enrages, dps checks, or any real threat or concern about optimizing. You can easily just spam a aoe and clear anything, even hardcore it isn’t that vast enough to Alienate different jobs, it’s not that type of MMO and people need to get over this numbers obsession

My wishlist would be that wyrmwind thrust becomes a gcd and that draconian fury reduces the cooldown of dragonfire dive by 15s or so. (I wouldn't mind a passive that makes all jump do AoE too after doing draconian fury)

I feel like we have no option for gcd uptime once out of melee. Im not asking for ninja level of option but at least something more than piercing Talon.

Having wyrmwind on the gcd would first make it more satisfactory as it would get more potency. Assuming it wouldn't break any combo it would be quite useful to delay a positional if needed and more importantly we would have a range option whenevr we need to go out of melee for a "long" period of time (aka... 1gcd) . Sometime the gcd doesn't align well and you can't do a quick out and in without loosing uptime.

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Originally Posted by Evos

I do find it interesting that "feels better to use" is getting associated with potency. I get if it plays badly or is busy, but giving a potency buff doesn't suddenly make the job fun. But if the meaning is for competition between dps classes damage sure, to each there own.

I just hope drg doesn't become even easier...than it already is. Sometimes we get an over correction in the attempt to adjust gameplay (sigh).

I find the new drg to be burst plus sustain level of busy. And I'm glad there is something to do in between the rail guided 5 gcd post-burst. But...that's just me.

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High risk - high reward.
DRG is kind of easy but with the changes you need to Hustle way more compared to ShB and compared to RPR is DRG way harder.

- DoT Management.
- Buff Management (life surge, dragon sight, litany etc) and you have to make sure to use your life phase during your buff Windows yadayadayada
- more positionals - and no way to Delay them during your rotation
- way more and i mean WAY more OGCDs in General
- Animation lock
- inferior gap closer compared to RPR
- stardiver potency is a joke compared to communio even under buffs
- AoEs are straight lines--> it is so annyoing to use your aoe rotation on the edge of a mob Group-> use stardiver to jump right into the group and walk back to your previous Position to Hit everyone with your Line AoE again...

So well if DRG is easy RPR is braindead.

I'm a DRG main, the damage from a DRG has always been kind of middling from my experience unless you apply every buff available to make some minimal difference, DRGs are real useful in Delubrum when using the right lost action combinations and potions by the way.

I think the reason why DRG's are not stronger than some other DPS jobs is because we have Buff actions to give to other players and itself, so maybe in the devs. mind this is a bit of a sacrifice to control the balance of the job to avoid favoritism.

Out of all the DPS jobs I've played though I found MCH to be still a big mess since your combos are not always straight forward.

Its normally like this at start of Expac for DRG they have ptsd from HW drg and make sure not to make DRG too crazy
do a little potency buff here and there probably increase Chaotic spring by 2 seconds and be done for rest of the expac

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Originally Posted by CyanChan

Spineshatter Dive : potency changed from 250 to 0, now grants 2 stacks of Weakness Thrust to target.
Weakness Thrust Effect: guaranteeing that all Jump, High Jump, Stardiver are critical and direct hits.
Duration : 25s

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This is a direct nerf. 250 direct potency is far more damage than crit direct-hitting your remaining two jumps, especially one you only ever use every 120s. Furthermore, it contradicts with Battle Litany and defeats the entire purpose of giving Spineshatter Dive two charges in the first place: gap closing flexibility. This change forces it back into being used entirely for damage during raid buffs but negates abilities like the aforementioned Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Strat.

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Dragonfire Dive: Now also creates a patch of burned earth at target's feet, increase enemy's damage taken from Geirskogul, Nastrond, Wyrmwind Thrust by 10%.
Duration: 20s

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I mean, sure? That isn't exactly accomplishing much though. Personally, I wouldn't like this because now you're reliant on the tank to position properly. Tanks already don't accommodate Doton but at least that isn't a core part of Ninja's rotation. Overall, this doesn't address any perceived flexibility "issues". You could just slap some extra potency on Stardiver and achieve the same thing without any chunky drawbacks.

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Raiden Thrust: Now also extends Power Surge duration by 15s to a maximum of 30s.

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Power Surge's duration is fine. They may as well remove it entirely with this change as there wouldn't even be the slightest chance you'll ever lose it.

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Life surge: Now also grants Dragon Blood.
Dragon Blood Effect: Nullifies all action direction requirements.
Duration: 9s

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Likewise, this completely removes positionals from Dragoon. Between this new version of Life Surge and two charges of True North, you'd never have to worry about them.
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All in all, Dragoon is fine. It's whole design is intended to be following a rigid combo sequence that rarely deviants. What it needs is raw potency buffs.

gib 2 eyes on opener pls