(Spoilers) Why are dungeons so under-tuned when...

SE frequently make the excuse that dungeons are easy because they are 'story mode', or that they don't want to put 'pressure on the healer'. And yet... once again we get a Trial - at level 83, and forced by the MSQ - that, while not on the level of (pre-nerf) Shinryu, I'm sure more than a few groups have had difficultly with.

Now don't get me wrong, I do NOT want said trial to be nerfed (though some less disorientating markers wouldn't go astray). I simply want to know why it is OK for 'story mode' Trials to pressure the healers and cause wipes due to 1 or 2 players not knowing the mechanics while dungeons must remain essential wipe-proof?

It´s actually a design-issue SE makes every expansion.

First of all, the new trial is no hard. It´s just because ppl don´t know what´s coming and some casuals need more than 1 try to get used to them. Why? Because the game NEVER forced them to learn and to get an eye for certain mechanics. If ppl stop standing is those long-cast aoe´s, the healers wouldn´t have to do much beside the doom-cast.
So far SE´s bad design choice is, that the fights are not really challenging or complex, but rely on the 8th player. In normal mode it´s not a big deal, but in expert or savage? One guy miss to play a mechanic and it´s a wipe. Players getting punished for taking someone "not so good" with them. The carry possibilities, if the majority knows what to do, are not really a thing. And given to the fact, that the most content never force any input from any player and MSQ even comes up with a "easier please" button or Echo, the most ppl gonna be noobs all their lifes and wipe way too much parties with their incompetence.

sounds like you need a break from the game as others have said in another post. I agree dungeons could be harder but its litterally for story content. And heck the Endwalker dungeons did present some challenge if you didnt know mechanics 1-2 wipes to continue seems fine. The trials were faster then shadowbringers story trials much more overlap and mechanics that some would argue more akin to an extreme in some areas. Overall I think the story stuff was harder in endwalker then past expansions.

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Originally Posted by Easayia

sounds like you need a break from the game as others have said in another post. I agree dungeons could be harder but its litterally for story content. And heck the Endwalker dungeons did present some challenge if you didnt know mechanics 1-2 wipes to continue seems fine. The trials were faster then shadowbringers story trials much more overlap and mechanics that some would argue more akin to an extreme in some areas. Overall I think the story stuff was harder in endwalker then past expansions.

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The real issue is that Squeenix intentionally straight up nerfs already easy Dungeon content even further into being almost completely mindless. A good example for this, is the changes they did to the Aurum Vale Coincounter. Said Boss is a Cyclops which are known (by those who pay actual attention to ingame mechanics) for using long charged, nontelegraphed attacks. Since alot of People kept dying to it over and over again for simply wanting to faceroll the Boss, Squeenix gave that Boss visible Telegraphs just for the sake of convenience.

Even with the Endwanker release, they silently made changes to some of the older Content by simply slowing things down. So far, i noticed that the Anamnesis Anyder Kyklops and the Ultima Boss in Orbonne (only the Dps check) have been slowed down noticably.

Also, spare us the old "just go play another game, lmao" excuse. There is plenty of People here who genuinely care for the game and want it to become better, and just looking away from things, wont change anything. The least you can do, is to stop insulting their efforts

Try the level 89 primal fight when I did it we kept on wiping. Most we could get hp down to was 25% before both healers died and then we wiped. Never was able to finish the fight. I would say most the new dungeons and primal fights is over tuned.

I really wish their fix to "hard" dungeon boss fights was just to allow you to restart just outside the boss room, instead of running back for 1-2 minutes, rather than nerfing the fights themselves. Frankly, wiping to a mechanic you're quickly learning is all good fun. Running back is what annoys people in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Try the level 89 primal fight when I did it we kept on wiping. Most we could get hp down to was 25% before both healers died and then we wiped. Never was able to finish the fight. I would say most the new dungeons and primal fights is over tuned.

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This is a serious "Git Gud" issue.

If you, or your group isn´t able to beat the story-content multiple times, then you´re just not good players. This has nothing to do with "overtuned", when more than enough other players run through the content half-blind.

Maybe instead of doing some DPS just stay there, look around and check what´s happening? The mechanics aren´t hard. My gf and me even killed that primal within the first pull with a completely random group via pf. Ppl just need to L2P and SE should start to bring a decent learning curve instead of dumbdowns and easy button.

They didn't just slow down older bosses. With the stat crunch they stealth nerfed the HP of older dungeon bosses significantly.
Im not sure about ARR dungeons to be fair. But I did notice a HUGE nerf in Heavensward and Stormblood content.

I remember early SHBs. Lakeland dungeon? The mobs that spawn after the 2nd boss. You know... The egg room! There's the big guys, that channel an AoE slap.

When the stuff was new, they were immune to stuns! Has been ninja nerfed during SHBs!

Point is, they've been doing this probably since forever!

They want people to have fun and enjoy the story. I personally think, people would enjoy it more if things were a tad more challenging but... I've seen enough posts on here to doubt mzself saying that ^^

But visually, EW content has been great so far!

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Try the level 89 primal fight when I did it we kept on wiping. Most we could get hp down to was 25% before both healers died and then we wiped. Never was able to finish the fight. I would say most the new dungeons and primal fights is over tuned.

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I have now done the level 89 Trial, and again it was significantly harder than the Dungeon that directly preceded it. I also find it funny that you get 'lives' - and 1 more with each wipe - when doing it with the Trust NPCs... it's almost like SE knows the Trial is significantly harder, but instead of adjusting things to have a reasonable difficulty curve they decided it would be better (or just easier?) to give the player wipe protection.

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Originally Posted by Easayia

sounds like you need a break from the game as others have said in another post. I agree dungeons could be harder but its litterally for story content. And heck the Endwalker dungeons did present some challenge if you didnt know mechanics 1-2 wipes to continue seems fine. The trials were faster then shadowbringers story trials much more overlap and mechanics that some would argue more akin to an extreme in some areas. Overall I think the story stuff was harder in endwalker then past expansions.

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I only just got back to the game... which is probably part of the problem; i.e. if you take more than a minute to look beyond the FFXIV bubble you would realise just how misguided some of SE's choices are when it comes to content (and job) design.

One example, as relevant to this thread, is that making dungeons easy DOES NOT help lower skilled players to get through the MSQ. Quite the opposite, it teaches them that all mechanics are telegraphed with giant glowing boxes / circles (they aren't)... that most mechanics don't matter (the healer will just heal / raise you)... and that even dieing to mechanics doesn't matter (the rest of the party will just finish the fight without you). All of which leaves them woefully unprepared when the difficulty jumps up for Trails (which I will say again, ARE ALSO FORCED BY THE MSQ!)

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

This is a serious "Git Gud" issue.

If you, or your group isn´t able to beat the story-content multiple times, then you´re just not good players. This has nothing to do with "overtuned", when more than enough other players run through the content half-blind.

Maybe instead of doing some DPS just stay there, look around and check what´s happening? The mechanics aren´t hard. My gf and me even killed that primal within the first pull with a completely random group via pf. Ppl just need to L2P and SE should start to bring a decent learning curve instead of dumbdowns and easy button.

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Harsh... While I agree that at a certain point players need to stop expecting everything to be easy mode, it is not the fault of players that SE continues to create this expectation and provides little by way of tools or content that teaches players how to "Git Gud".

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Harsh... While I agree that at a certain point players need to stop expecting everything to be easy mode, it is not the fault of players that SE continues to create this expectation and provides little by way of tools or content that teaches players how to "Git Gud".

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Or actively stimies learning tools, as if what little (barebone) support they offer is wholly sufficient...

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Originally Posted by Anhra

A good example for this, is the changes they did to the Aurum Vale Coincounter.

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I actually think this is a horrible example for this. While I would agree that the change wasn't needed to Coincounter, he was the only dungeon boss in the game(I think) that didn't have telegraphs. The only other places I've seen this have been in raids where you have to pay attention to what the giant boss of doom is doing to know where to dodge. It makes complete sense that they would go back and give Coincounter telegraphs since it's a lowbie dungeon and those players will never use that mechanic again until high level content or optional raids.

It just flat out didn't make sense with the rest of the design philosophy around it so they "corrected" the out of place one. To me that change wasn't about making it easier but about making it follow with the rest of the game's logic. In another example, say...Dark Souls. One thing you'd never find is if all the sudden halfway through the game you ran into a boss that required you to solve puzzles to defeat him. Would that work in other games? Quite possibly. But in Dark Souls? No way in hell. It would be MASSIVELY panned because it's a complete deviation from how the rest of the game works.

TLDR: They fixed something they should have fixed years ago. I think using it as an example of the devs dumbing down the game is a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

I actually think this is a horrible example for this. While I would agree that the change wasn't needed to Coincounter, he was the only dungeon boss in the game(I think) that didn't have telegraphs.

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The chimera is another example with "Ram / Dragon casts". Pretty much any old boss has no tankbuster-telegraphs. And there are a bunch of other examples of dungeon-bosses with some mechanics or no telegraphs you need to get used to.
SE added with each expansion more and more of them to the new fights. Imo any tankbuster has one and the multistack animation is new and way too much used already. Any primal fights has it and if 1 healer dies before or overall 3 ppl missing, gogo wipe.

So far the fights got way easier over the expansions, which is a killer for the learning curve. And instead of having some sort of growing, a challenge, the core challenge is to beg that 8 ppl are alive for the stackmarks. That´s it.

Without it... i could beat any current dungeon / primal fight solo on a tank. It´ll only need some time.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Harsh... While I agree that at a certain point players need to stop expecting everything to be easy mode, it is not the fault of players that SE continues to create this expectation and provides little by way of tools or content that teaches players how to "Git Gud".

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Yeah might be harsh but reality. It´s no offense against the person above. That the learning curve is a joke in this game and even more stuff is getting ridiculously easy over the expansions is a no-go. I don´t get what SE is really thinking about this and that ppl continuosly wipe to a standard primal shows that it´s the wrong way. The "easy button on MSQ" or stuff like echo-buffs do play a major role with this issue as much as telegraphs for everything or endless castbars.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Without it... i could beat any current dungeon / primal fight solo on a tank. It´ll only need some time.

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Look out, we got a badass over here.

The difficulty curve in XIV is fine. Go play dark souls or something for your leet overly punishing content.

Meanwhile, I can't even get past the 1st boss in Smileton. The mechanics have been explained to me, they sound doable, I at least _think_ I'm doing every step along the way correctly - & I die regardless, every time. So now I'm just blocked on unlocking Expert roulette.

Maybe they could do difficulty tiers like with trials, but 'more difficult' for all when I'm already sitting here locked out of game progression is a bitter pill to see someone trying to convince me to take.

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Originally Posted by Snapdragyn

Meanwhile, I can't even get past the 1st boss in Smileton. The mechanics have been explained to me, they sound doable, I at least _think_ I'm doing every step along the way correctly - & I die regardless, every time. So now I'm just blocked on unlocking Expert roulette.

Maybe they could do difficulty tiers like with trials, but 'more difficult' for all when I'm already sitting here locked out of game progression is a bitter pill to see someone trying to convince me to take.

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How can you stuck there? Do you play with Thancred and Co. only? I can´t believe that not any group was able to clear it with yourself. Maybe try to play with others and learn from them? You actually lock out yourself by not using the multiplayer in a MMORPG.

If they come with difficulty tiers, they need to brind better loot on the higher ones aka a mount or something like you´ve in each 4th savage fight. But at this point dozens of ppl will start to complain "I can´t beat it, but i want, please nerf!"

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Look out, we got a badass over here.

The difficulty curve in XIV is fine. Go play dark souls or something for your leet overly punishing content.

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Yes i´m a badass who´s able to press the given buttons on tanks meanwhile playing 123. Just because you aren´t able to do the same doesn´t mean that the game is well balanced with its difficulty or learning curve. It just means you´re not a good player. :)

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

How can you stuck there? Do you play with Thancred and Co. only? I can´t believe that not any group was able to clear it with yourself. Maybe try to play with others and learn from them? You actually lock out yourself by not using the multiplayer in a MMORPG.

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I did go with a group, because I can't clear a dungeon w/ the NPCs since they won't rezz me (I always die).

The group explained the mechanics. Faces. Alternate colors. Watch the tethers. Avoid bad ground (duh).

And I still died, died, died, died, died. Even as it seemed, from my screen, that I was doing everything as instructed.

Heck, just the bad ground - 1st push I literally lined myself up OUT of one, got pushed into one. 'OK,' I thought, 'the push is strong enough that I need to stand IN one to get pushed OUT of it! I'll do that next time!'

Next time, stand IN bad... & get pushed into next bad. Instadeath again. :/

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Yes i´m a badass who´s able to press the given buttons on tanks meanwhile playing 123. Just because you aren´t able to do the same doesn´t mean that the game is well balanced with its difficulty or learning curve. It just means you´re not a good player. :)

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Although this wasn't directed toward my response, a point here:

You're suggesting that the entire game be geared for your skill level. That will make it completely unplayable for some (certainly for me).

Why not instead suggest, as I have, tiers that can accommodate multiple skill levels? This is not only a better business approach (why should they turn away paying lower-ability customers), but is also the simply the _nicer_ approach - something for everyone instead of only one group getting what they want.

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Originally Posted by Snapdragyn

I did go with a group, because I can't clear a dungeon w/ the NPCs since they won't rezz me (I always die).

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Sounds like you need to get a better eye for surroundings and other stuff. So far the casttimes and animations are long enough.

For the given fight, don´t know what´s gonna explained, but it´s seriously just staying on red or blue. What´s sometimes happen is that the boss swap the stonefaces, but that´s even a cast you can see.
For that knockback, it´s always 1 line. Otherwise you can stay in the correct line and use your antiknockback-skill. Stop doing DPS and just concentrate on mechanics to get used too. Pretty much everything in this game repeats dozens of times, so once you got used to something, you can clear everything beyond.

(You could even follow another person permanently. You probably won´t die then, but you don´t learn then too.)

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Originally Posted by Snapdragyn

Although this wasn't directed toward my response, a point here:

You're suggesting that the entire game be geared for your skill level. That will make it completely unplayable for some (certainly for me).

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I´ve never said that i want the complete game on my skill level, it´s just what ppl claim who don´t read properly.

I´ve stated more than one time that it´s not about difficulty only. It´s more about "not always the same". We got re-used stuff over and over again from each expansion, a beautiful but useless overworld and other stuff. Dungeons are just wall to wall pulls meanwhile the loot and adds have become completely irrelevant. Bosses can be solo´d and in stuff like savage the whole challenge is that 8 from 8 persons stay on the correct spot. And and and...

We just don´t get any new or challenging stuff. The game doesn´t even has a decent learning curve. A bunch of players are just getting carried through the content meanwhile the others are bored as hell. And instead of giving us a decent learning curve, SE gave us an "easier button" and many dumbdowns on classes.

I would be a fan of normal and hardcore dungeons, even with 5 difficulty tiers and special mechanics or so. But as i said, ppl has already been like "No, i don´t want to spend more than 10 minutes into a dungeon" or "No, i can´t complete it, it´s too hard, i can´t get the mount/pet there. So SE goes the lazy way and don´t put much efford into anything. Visually yes, but gameplay-wise not so much.

(This guy above seems to be my personal forum-stalker anyway. He´s writing the same sentence with other words on anything, so far just ignore it. He has seriously no clue.)

FFXIV clearly isn't for you.

I've ended up going through End Days several times, destroyed gear. As a healer, it is rough, but doable if you are quick on your toes. I go repair gear, come back to the Final Day portal and set up for the Big Boss 8-man fight. Now I can only Q for End Day yet again. Duty finder and the area I am supposed to be able to go into Final Day will only send me to End Days duty. WTF? Am I to go into Final Day in severe damaged or broken gear as a healer?

I have been healing with this character since I was able to get Astrologian. No problems until this duty, End Days, for damage on gear in basic MSQ duties. This Duty for Endwalker end quest, I am getting frustrated enough to just go level a DPS to go through this mess.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

I actually think this is a horrible example for this. While I would agree that the change wasn't needed to Coincounter, he was the only dungeon boss in the game(I think) that didn't have telegraphs.

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He was by no means the only boss not to have telegraphs and by the time one did Aurum Vale, one would have already been exposed to those exact skills from MSQ and FATE mobs.

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Originally Posted by RavenSaint

I've ended up going through End Days several times, destroyed gear. As a healer, it is rough, but doable if you are quick on your toes. I go repair gear, come back to the Final Day portal and set up for the Big Boss 8-man fight. Now I can only Q for End Day yet again. Duty finder and the area I am supposed to be able to go into Final Day will only send me to End Days duty. WTF? Am I to go into Final Day in severe damaged or broken gear as a healer?

I have been healing with this character since I was able to get Astrologian. No problems until this duty, End Days, for damage on gear in basic MSQ duties. This Duty for Endwalker end quest, I am getting frustrated enough to just go level a DPS to go through this mess.

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The dungeon is not harder to heal than the others. It´s just up to the players if they´re able to move out of the aoes or not.

You don´t have to repeat the dungeon to start with the trial. I guess you still had it signed in the dungeon-finder and it just popped up earlier than than the trial.


Btw no need to write it down in 3 or more threads, when you opened one about this topic.

I utterly and profoundly disagree with all the hyperbole and exaggerated defenses on this matter

No this is not a “it’s easy” argument it’s a “it’s barren and unengaging” To put it bluntly we are 4 expansions in! How have they not figured out to make this Congo line, aoe spamming bors fun?! Trash mobs have next to zero mechanics making them bowling pins and the bosses mechs are undertuned, unthrilling and overly generous with their timed executions and notably fewer than some of ARR which is ridiculous!

Popular counterclaims are: play something else which is a defeatist argument, it’s story which is undermined by SOS and harder trials and even some ARR dungeons, Do savage if you want to be challenged which its sad you need to go to extreme lengths for something thrilling and accessible which savage and EX are not considering you need to have a static and due to core content being very hand holdy, it’s a massive abyss with no bridge between hardcore and core, they’ve done so much for 8 man crap and have actively regressed lower than some if not most ARR dungeons mechanically. Pretty yes, fun, highly subjective

Ain’t gonna kill anyone to add a mechanic more or add some spice to trash mobs

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I utterly and profoundly disagree with all the hyperbole and exaggerated defenses on this matter

No this is not a “it’s easy” argument it’s a “it’s barren and unengaging” To put it bluntly we are 4 expansions in! How have they not figured out to make this Congo line, aoe spamming bors fun?! Trash mobs have next to zero mechanics making them bowling pins and the bosses mechs are undertuned, unthrilling and overly generous with their timed executions and notably fewer than some of ARR which is ridiculous!

Popular counterclaims are: play something else which is a defeatist argument, it’s story which is undermined by SOS and harder trials and even some ARR dungeons, Do savage if you want to be challenged which its sad you need to go to extreme lengths for something thrilling and accessible which savage and EX are not considering you need to have a static and due to core content being very hand holdy, it’s a massive abyss with no bridge between hardcore and core, they’ve done so much for 8 man crap and have actively regressed lower than some if not most ARR dungeons mechanically. Pretty yes, fun, highly subjective

Ain’t gonna kill anyone to add a mechanic more or add some spice to trash mobs

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It's not a defeatist argument when the people making it are having fun and like the current design paradigm.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

It's not a defeatist argument when the people making it are having fun and like the current design paradigm.

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It is when they can’t defend their claim and say “play something else” and ignoring the fact that’s entirely subjective. People can claim to have fun with anything who cares. The only way to measure, isn’t by “fun factor” as again subjective, but by mechanics, interludes, potencies ect. Things that can be measured and EW is lacking severely.

I take it if they made a trail have 1 singular mechanic and someone said “it’s fun play something else if your not having fun” that’s not a valid argument, more so if they define it which is a really bizarre issue this expansions as everyone praises these shallow husk of solo instances

Having tanked all dungeons in EW, the most dangerous part is the wall to wall pulls. The bosses themselves are not very strong, especially vs. paladin. Had one situation on first boss of The Dead Ends where healer and one DPS died at around 55%, leaving me and one DPS to clear the boss, which was doable even with PLD healing DPS at times.

Honestly would love to see some more challenging dungeons, something along the lines of original Orbonne Monastery.

As a not-tank-main, who tanked an expansion for the first time, the level 83 trial was 100% not hard. And it's not even significantly more difficult than pre-EW trials. I'd argue it's about the same difficulty as, say, Hades NM. The level 89 trial was even easier because it was undertuned to allow for Trust AI to complete it. The only trial I had difficulty with was the level 90 trial, only because I'm a bit spatially unaware at times and didn't notice the giant falling things off to my sides before it was too late and the AOE appeared. Wiped once throughout the entire expansion.

Bear in mind I DF'd and PF'd the 83 and 90 trial respectively, and used the trust system for the 89 trial.

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

Having tanked all dungeons in EW, the most dangerous part is the wall to wall pulls. The bosses themselves are not very strong, especially vs. paladin. Had one situation on first boss of The Dead Ends where healer and one DPS died at around 55%, leaving me and one DPS to clear the boss, which was doable even with PLD healing DPS at times.

Honestly would love to see some more challenging dungeons, something along the lines of original Orbonne Monastery.

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Running them all as tanks it’s Atrocious that they have gates literally no reason to hinder Wall-to-wall runs

Now, I do hate Wall-to-wall as the mobs just continue to stand there as we spam aoes at it, but it’s all the fun you can have they face that some transition rooms are gated just pads it out for not reason, they aren’t powerful enough to hold their own it’s madness!

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Originally Posted by Jirah

It is when they can’t defend their claim and say “play something else” and ignoring the fact that’s entirely subjective. People can claim to have fun with anything who cares. The only way to measure, isn’t by “fun factor” as again subjective, but by mechanics, interludes, potencies ect. Things that can be measured and EW is lacking severely.

I take it if they made a trail have 1 singular mechanic and someone said “it’s fun play something else if your not having fun” that’s not a valid argument, more so if they define it which is a really bizarre issue this expansions as everyone praises these shallow husk of solo instances

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Yoshi's team has ridden their current design paradigm to the #1 spot in the MMO world so it seems they know something you don't.

I think this is not entirely true. I ran the last dungeon a couple of times now and I can tell you that there are groups who still wipe on it. This is why I started playing as a healer. I might not be the best heal, but at least I don't die and can ress back people if needed on bosses.

In addition to that, many healers at max level don't know how doom works in different scenarios (e.g: when its just heal to max remove or when its esuna remove). I can tell this based on running Delubrum on a daily basis for relic.

Some people will find some content harder than others, I think SE's goal is to make things doable by everyone when it comes to MSQ.

That being said, I agree that trials as MSQ with a full new team can wipe a lot. But I saw people not accepting help in MSQ trials cause they wanted to figure out the mechanics. Which is all nice and cool if it was on extreme, but not when 7 other people are just trying to finish the freaking story... please make a party finder if you wanna do a blind learning party for a normal trial...

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

Yoshi's team has ridden their current design paradigm to the #1 spot in the MMO world so it seems they know something you don't.

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This means nothing. There are a bunch of reasons why FF14 has a large playerbase and none of them is that the game does a better job than other especially gameplay-wise.

- One of them is the playstation-advantage. Comparable trinity-games like SWTOR and WoW can´t be played on console, which is a big thing in today´s gaming-industry. Accessibility is a huge sales factor.

- Another one is the localization. Of course it´s somehow popular in the West, but FF14´s largest playerbase is pretty much Japan-exclusive, or overall in the asian-region. And of course, Playstation is pretty much exclusive in Japan too. Meanwhile more West-orientated MMORPG´s are more popular in the West. But overall the playerbase, which wants to play MMORPG´s is much larger than the one in the West. Japan and Korea are MMORPG heavens so far.

- They cater the masses, not gamers, which is a serious issue of this game, but the most here seem to be happy with nothing but some bling-bling. Gameplay-wise this game is becoming easier and easier to the point that it just sucks. And that´s something the most mighty casuals don´t care about. They just want to press 1 button to go trough the whole game, because they just don´t care about gaming. As long as they can chill in Limsa with some glam or are able to unsync-farm pretty much everything with low efford, they´re happy paypigs. SE just needs to implement some cool animations for that 1 button and they gonna be rich af.

- COVID did a lot to gaming. A lot of ppl had nothing to do in their lockdown, so they started playing videogames. Not only FF14 has become a bunch of new players.

- Some braindead ppl followed a streamer... Like wtf?! I´ll never get why so many ppl are so easy to manipulate by some guys or half-naked girls playing games and/or talking bs in the internet. So far, it doesn´t say that the game is good or attracted millions of players by itself. Those monkeys just followed a guy "blablabla" in front of a webcam.


FF14 might be that one MMO with the largest number of active players, but it doesn´t have the largest total player number. Gameplay-wise it´s even on the bottom compared to all other MMORPG`s out there. SHB and Endwalker did a lot to make this game super braindead. While Blizzard will learn from their mistakes, other games like New World are going to improved and with Lost Ark around the next corner, the playerbase will drop again, for sure.

(Just my personal opinion, but if we would compare the number of active GAMERS in FF14 to other MMO´s, FF14 would lose hard. I would never count ppl who run through games like this like it´s a singleplayer-game, or others who just want to feel happy to show others their new glam or because someone gifted them with a new little pet.)

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

This means nothing. There are a bunch of reasons why FF14 has a large playerbase and none of them is that the game does a better job than other especially gameplay-wise.

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That's weird, since it's one of the major elements repeatedly cited by all the WoW gameplay-centric raider folks who come over, how much they love the gameplay.

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- They cater the masses, not gamers, which is a serious issue of this game, but the most here seem to be happy with nothing but some bling-bling. Gameplay-wise this game is becoming easier and easier to the point that it just sucks.

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If you think the last seven MSQ trials we've gotten are easier than the ones in ARR, HW, SB (original Shinryu notwithstanding)... I dunno what to tell you. Four of them have hard chokepoints that regularly wipe bad pugs to this very day.

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(Just my personal opinion, but if we would compare the number of active GAMERS in FF14 to other MMO´s, FF14 would lose hard. I would never count ppl who run through games like this like it´s a singleplayer-game, or others who just want to feel happy to show others their new glam or because someone gifted them with a new little pet.)

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No one cares about one-true-way "GAMER" rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

That's weird, since it's one of the major elements repeatedly cited by all the WoW gameplay-centric raider folks who come over, how much they love the gameplay.

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In what sense? If in the sense of rotational flow, that doesn't apply to the majority of those I know outside of the likes of SAM, BLM, and older versions of MNK. If in the sense of DDR mechanics, response has been mixed from most Heroic+ raiders I've convinced to join me in XIV. If in the sense of what results from server (un)responsiveness or (un)reliability, that's been a hard no.

Stats are one thing -- and notably missing, especially given that you claim an absolute -- but what do you even intend "gameplay" to mean here.

My experience is merely anecdotal, as most is, and my sample size only 70 or guildmates/FC-mates over the years, but it contradicts your findings enough that I have to wonder how you define the term.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

That's weird, since it's one of the major elements repeatedly cited by all the WoW gameplay-centric raider folks who come over, how much they love the gameplay.

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I´ve friends in some other MMORPG´s, even WoW. They´ve tried this game in it´s free trial and none of them got warm with it. "Too slow, not engaging etc."
I highly doubt that even half of the guys you claim are here for the gameplay. It´s just one of the last trinity MMORPG´s with great graphics. The other half will notice soon, that the gameplay is highly repetitive and homogenized. Imo "it´s just something new" and still not a proof, that FF14 does a better job than others. It doesn´t.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

If you think the last seven MSQ trials we've gotten are easier than the ones in ARR, HW, SB (original Shinryu notwithstanding)... I dunno what to tell you. Four of them have hard chokepoints that regularly wipe bad pugs to this very day.

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What hard chokepoints?

Why should bad players actually be able to finish content? Does it make sense?

Just yesterday i dropped in the level 89 primal via mentorroulette as tank. Both tanks left before. I asked them to start and the guys "Nono, we miss a tank." I´ve been like "I can solotank this and it´s better to practice than afking around."
I started the fight and those guys died to pretty much everything again and again until we finally wiped in phase 2. Then i started to explain the fight. We started again, things worked way better than before, meanwhile a 2nd tank joined, who had no clue too. We wiped again around 50% in the 2nd phase. The other tank left immediately. So i started a 3rd pull and have written down everything in chat as fast as i could like "In, out, spread after, etc..." And hurray, we finished the fight.

So far 1 guy has carried 6 other ppl even without a 2nd tank through multiple double-stack tankbusters. The fights aren´t hard, they´re easy af. The most ppl are just not able to check the mechanics properly. Either because they run blind through the game or are just not smart enough. And while the game doesn´t force anything from the players, of course the most suck and stuck on their easy button and echo in any possible content. I can just repeat it, this game has become a mess gameplay-wise.

And i still see poeple wiping or dieing at any MSQ trial even with overtuned stats thx to a broken downsync. Lately my gf stucked in Titan or Ifrit? normal for half an hour. And she is definately not a bad player, but there isn´t much carry-potential if you´re not a healer or tank. New fights are definately easier thx to all the stats and tools we´ve, combined with everything telegraphed and mostly just "move to A, move to B, stack , spread" stuff.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

No one cares about one-true-way "GAMER" rhetoric.

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Oh a lot of poeple do care since gaming has become a mess thx to all the willing paypigs and their low efford trash behind animations.

If you think the story trials are hard you should probably not use level skips and go back through 4 man dungeons to gradually learn re-used enemy mechanics.

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Originally Posted by kejakalope

Yoshi's team has ridden their current design paradigm to the #1 spot in the MMO world so it seems they know something you don't.

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Good for them but, this means absolutely nothing

Pokémon, makes the most money out of any video game IP in the world would you call them quality products worthy of such blind faith such as yours?

Popularity doesn’t mean anything if anything it hinders quality as they have less of a excuse to try

Not everyone is a hardcore gamer who feels everything is easy ^^. I think everyone should be able to go through the story content no matter their ability because the story is really wonderful. For people who want more challenging content there is always harder modes like savage and ultimate

Increasing the difficulty won't get you more skilled players. It will instead get you less players, from people who quit because it's too hard. This is not a good thing for the long term health of an mmo.

Also, the people I've played with in any Endwalker content, all seem to say the difficulty did go up.

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Originally Posted by lisaa

Not everyone is a hardcore gamer who feels everything is easy ^^. I think everyone should be able to go through the story content no matter their ability because the story is really wonderful. For people who want more challenging content there is always harder modes like savage and ultimate

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Savage isn´t much more than EX content which a harder DPS check and instawipes just because 1 out of 8 players failed to play his mechanic. It´s not harder or mechanically attractive... just a test of your own patience with ppl who needs a bit longer to move to ABCD. Ultimate means the same, just with longer fights and more stuff to remember.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

Increasing the difficulty won't get you more skilled players. It will instead get you less players, from people who quit because it's too hard. This is not a good thing for the long term health of an mmo.

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Increasing the difficulty from level to level, fight to fight brings a learning curve into the game as much as class-quests should carry that you learn the needed stuff for your class obviously. SE fails miserably with it... They introduced "normal / easy / super easy" buttons, dumb´d classes down and copy & paste any fights. Tanks have become super broken and are able to solo-carry pretty much everything without a DPS check, meanwhile healers are not really needed unless ppl needs to be rezzed.
This is a serious issue! With real gameplay and a decent learning curve, players would grow without much efford and would be able to perform way better.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

Also, the people I've played with in any Endwalker content, all seem to say the difficulty did go up.

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This is a thing just because Shadowbringers was even more laughable with all dumbdowns and bulletsponging fights without any depth. Endwalker just added new telegraphs and mixed up some classes. Next to that, it might be a scaling issue since they changed it. And older Raidcontent feels like bullet-sponging now, meanwhile dungeons got even easier pass.